EPTWhy cannot the SC-community accept imbalance? - Page 4
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Koillette
56 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Finally, imagine if one of the 3 races ended up to be imbalanced, one was balanced, and one was overpower. Would you really want to see tournaments like the GSL or seasons like NASL with 80% Terran, 15% Protoss and 5% Zerg? Of course not TvT can be fun but seeing ONLY that would be sooo boring. In fighters theres always a High Tier that can all somewhat compete with each other so they'll be variety still, at least a lot more that in above example. | ||
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
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TehForce
1072 Posts
The reason why balance complaints are ignored or are frowned against is because in 99,9999% of all the complaints there wasn't actually an imbalance but the person complaining just played poorly. For every "normal" post about balance you can read in the forums you get 1000 complaints in almost every thread from bronze-masters players who complain about balance just because they play poorly. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
Now look at SC. Meta game shifts according to what a popular strategy is at the time. Something may not even look imbalanced until months down the road. For example, everyone and their mother thought BFH were shit a few months ago. Now people are calling them imbalanced due to strong timings that can be had with them. Also, meta game shifts in Street Fighter seemingly happen over night (if ever because the Japanese figure the game out incredibly fast) where in SC 2 a shift could take MONTHS. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
On August 13 2011 11:56 Mordiford wrote: The FoW counterpart exists in just about every game where reaction-time is a factor, the same could be said of Tekken, BlazBlue... almost any fighting game and for some FPSs as well. The point is when you draw comparisons like this, you can make any game comparable to another and it doesn't really work because then what's the point? This is why I drew the comparison with Halo, what's the difference then...? I think this is a misunderstanding, sorry, what I meant was: 1. I believe that SF4 is essentially an RTS when it comes to what I wrote in the first long post. I don't understand why the two communities looks on balance so differently, and the fact that SC2 is an RTS and SF4 is a fighting game doesn't explain why, because there are enough similarities to say that "The communities shouldn't react differently to balance just because of this". What I agreed on was that I know that you cannot just make weak links between two games and say that they are similar. But I argue that the links between these games are enough to nullify the argument "but this is an RTS and this is a fighting game". I hope you get my point? 2 Second point, has nothing to do with first point, I just wanted to state that there ARE fog of war in fighting games as well. This doesnt make the two games similar, this was just a criticizm to HyperLimez post. There are FoW in every game (well, depends what you count as FoW). So: I agree on that clumping two games together with weak links are bad. But I believe that these links between these games are enough to be able to say that "There should be another reason why people look on balance so differently than the "This is an RTS and this is a fighting game" argument, because the similarities between the games are enough to say that there should be another reason for the different reactions to balance. FoW, yes it exists in every game. HyperlimeZ said fighting games had none, and I just disagreed, had nothing to do with the other things we were discussing. Agreed?  | ||
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leakingpear
United Kingdom302 Posts
In short, no one cares stop polluting forums with these endless bullshit threads complaining about other people complaining. | ||
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Koillette
56 Posts
On August 13 2011 12:30 lizzard_warish wrote: @Koillete: It's because the posts are 99% of the time vitriolic and uneducated, it does nothing but damages the community [and our collective IQ]. Balance should be left to be people who genuinely understand the game. I don't see how it damages the community and our collective IQ. Balance affect alot more NON-pros then pro. More non-pros. I hate these, Only pro's can talk about balance? | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
A fighting game doesn't have to be, because even if one character is superior to every other, every player could use that character and it would be fair. And there are so many characters that they can just disregard the terrible ones and still have plenty of viable ones. In Starcraft, there are only 3 races. If one turns out to be inferior, that means you've got to play one of the other 2. And if one is superior, that means everyone has to play that one race, and it just becomes extremely boring. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On August 13 2011 12:31 skirmisheR wrote: I think this is a misunderstanding, sorry, what I meant was: 1. I believe that SF4 is essentially an RTS when it comes to what I wrote in the first long post. I don't understand why the two communities looks on balance so differently, and the fact that SC2 is an RTS and SF4 is a fighting game doesn't explain why, because there are enough similarities to say that "The communities shouldn't react differently to balance just because of this". What I agreed on was that I know that you cannot just make weak links between two games and say that they are similar. But I argue that the links between these games are enough to nullify the argument "but this is an RTS and this is a fighting game". I hope you get my point? 2 Second point, has nothing to do with first point, I just wanted to state that there ARE fog of war in fighting games as well. This doesnt make the two games similar, this was just a criticizm to HyperLimez post. There are FoW in every game (well, depends what you count as FoW). So: I agree on that clumping two games together with weak links are bad. But I believe that these links between these games are enough to be able to say that "There should be another reason why people look on balance so differently than the "This is an RTS and this is a fighting game" argument, because the similarities between the games are enough to say that there should be another reason for the different reactions to balance. FoW, yes it exists in every game. HyperlimeZ said fighting games had none, and I just disagreed, had nothing to do with the other things we were discussing. Agreed? I think we're on the same page here, more or less. As for the outlook on balance being different, I addressed that in regards to TL specifically and to the game in general, there's a lot more theory-crafting to be done in regards to countering a particular strategy and since there are only three races as opposed to a large roster of characters there isn't much to go around in that regard. When it comes to Street Fighter, some characters have very clearly observable advantages in regards to their good matchups and potentially safer movesets, there isn't really a case of, "Well you should try countering that with a Shoryuken" as far as theory-crafting goes because it's so clear-cut. In Starcraft, there is a lot more to explore in regards to finding the counter to something. Many strategies have gone out of style because people realized ways to identify and shut them down. On August 13 2011 12:34 Koillette wrote: I don't see how it damages the community and our collective IQ. Balance affect alot more NON-pros then pro. More non-pros. I hate these, Only pro's can talk about balance? No, not only pros can talk about balance, but only pros really have something worthwhile in regards to experience at high levels of play. If your "balance issue" can be overcome by simply playing better, then there's nothing that needs changing other than your skill and play. It's not productive to talk about balance because everyone is talking from a level of play that is largely irrelevant and the people who have the required experience to discuss it have so much invested in their own race for the success of their career as a pro that it's a little difficult to expect them to be objective and for them to disregard racial bias. Furthermore, all balance discussions on TL does is take away from the success of players, particularly in LR thread. If you wish to discuss balance, do it on Blizzard's forums, it doesn't do anything here. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
The popular answer to anything is that people will have some sort of epiphany and new strats will come out which make a perceived imbalance much less severe or non-existent. T | ||
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sCfO20
176 Posts
On August 13 2011 12:36 TedJustice wrote: In Starcraft, there are only 3 races. If one turns out to be inferior, that means you've got to play one of the other 2. And if one is superior, that means everyone has to play that one race, and it just becomes extremely boring. This is what makes starcraft such a great game. It's not about the units, or even your race, it's about how you use them to make YOUR play superior. Do you remember when everyone thought the muta was imba in SC1? Neither do I, but after the medic came along, everything was peachy. The QQers will die out, as 4 gates and banshee's go out of style. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
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Kalent
Canada253 Posts
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
On August 13 2011 12:34 Koillette wrote: Not pros, good players. Outside of that its whining ignorantly when the response that will get you out of the situation is always akin to: Its not imbalanced your doing it wrong, heres an example, or, its not imbalanced, you just floated 3 grand, mistimed your gates, etc etc etc.I don't see how it damages the community and our collective IQ. Balance affect alot more NON-pros then pro. More non-pros. I hate these, Only pro's can talk about balance? It damages the community by spreading falsehoods, creating a culture of defeat [I cant get out of silver zerg is UP against protoss waahhh], will result in disseminating inferior ideas and strategies rather than improvement, etc etc. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
On August 13 2011 12:48 SkimGuy wrote: There's so many more factors to an RTS game than a Fighting game. There's never any lag, all the characters have fixed frames and range of moves. Also, maps don't play a role at all in SF4, whereas Maps are a huge component of Starcraft 2 While levels don't play an actual role in the game for SF, there is a CLEAR psychological change when you get a level that you LIKE. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1600 Posts
Biggest issue is that there are too many builds, match ups, strategies, timings, skill levels to just balance the game at a the though of imbalance. That was this mistake when blizzard started listening to bronze players and kept changing the game to fit their needs. The game needs to be balanced at the VERY top, because if you're not playing your A game then it really isn't about balance, you could have macro'd better, micro'd better, used different units, hit a better timing. All sorts of things are to be contributed and comparing this game to a fighting game where most of the time similar moves to used regularly which leads to imbalance being easily noticed in one character isn't the easiest way to make an argument. Also on a side note there are two more games coming out if you couldn't figure out how you were supposed to win in SC2 then HoTS might be where you shine. When the last game comes through then you can worry about imbalance and hopefully make a more even maps and matchups. | ||
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frogrubdown
1266 Posts
On August 13 2011 11:29 Lurker87 wrote: Chess is imbalanced... In a "perfect" world, white is playing for a win, black is playing to draw. White is always ahead a move unless he makes some sort of mistake. However, in order to offset it, people playing black try for, at the time, rather obscure ideas. First time you show a player the Sicilian, they'll look at you as if you are crazy. I agree with mprs. There is no proof that this is the case. Most grandmasters throughout history have actually believed that a perfectly played game of chess results in a tie. There's not even any existing proof that a perfectly played game doesn't result in a win for black. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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