I was reading a thread talking about the successes of League of Legends when I was making some comparisons between watching LoL and watching Starcraft and I asked myself what the difference as a spectator was.
One thing that came to mind was that the end of League of Legends games can be very, very, very anti-climactic. the most exciting parts about watching LoL is probably the ganking or the team battles, but following is a lot of very mundane events in my opinion.
What I want to bring up is that a Starcraft game usually has a gradual increase of tension and intensity as the game goes on. Everyone would agree that the first minute of the game is quite boring but it gets gradually more and more exciting ending usually in a huge battle followed by a GG shortly after. Your emotions rise and rise and rise until the GG wraps it all up and you end the game with some measure of satisfaction about the game as enjoyable.
Many of you should recognize this game, but for those of you joining us recently, watch the 14:00-15:00 segment of this game and you should see what I mean about the lack of excitement in our closing moments of commentated games.
What I want to propose is that this final climactic event, the GG, is being belittled by commentators. When is the last time a NBA commentator casually casted the closing seconds of a tie game when the game winning shot goes in? Isnt it always an uproar?
then why are our english commentators so casual with the GG? I've got to be a little reasonable because i understand. The GG is so common and often times very simple and logical that it really isn't, by that point, a very big deal. When a team in the NBA is up by 20 and time runs out, they don't make it a big deal either. My issue is really that english commentators almost never treat the GG with a level of excitement that would be fitting for the game.
Maybe im just being stupid. what do you think?
Poll: Should english commentators get more excited particularly at the end?
Yes, we need our commentators to get as excited as the korean ones. (397)
60%
Let them cast how they want. (218)
33%
No, this would result in bad commentaries. (49)
7%
664 total votes
Your vote: Should english commentators get more excited particularly at the end?
(Vote): Yes, we need our commentators to get as excited as the korean ones. (Vote): No, this would result in bad commentaries. (Vote): Let them cast how they want.
I'd say that I would disagree with you about the gg being the most exciting part of a sc2 game. If it is the most exciting part, the casters are usually excited about it. However if one of the players has nothing left then its pretty obvious that they are going to gg. Therefore I think we should let casters cast the way they like. When a caster is genuinely excited about something, it makes it more exciting. However fake excitement just seems forced and cheesy.
I have thought about this before myself. I think it is probably bad form to call the game before it is officially over but on the other hand situations arise where games have clearly been decided. If I was a caster, I would not call gg or declare the winner before the game was actually over. Because what if I get in the habit of it and then someone makes a miracle comeback :p
You have to understand that not all games are "tied" at the end...and therefore you can't fake excitement. That's awkward. You use a tied game with 5 seconds to go as a reference, well I'll tell you that a similar situation in SC2 is SCfou vs Nestea, last season GSL semi-finals, game 5. That was a tie game that went down to the end. And there was excitement.
You just cant get excited when there isn't a close game, sporting events are the same way. You don't see football commentators going crazy when a team finishes 3-0 in regular time in a game that they clearly control. You do see them getting excited when its 1-1 in penalty kicks. This is the same for starcraft. The only difference is that there is no score like in most sports.
The thing is that not all games go like you said, there are tons of games when one of the players has been dead for 2-3 minutes and the GG is nothing to be excited about. As far as I've seen if there is something really exciting happening that leads immediately to a gg the casters are pretty excited as well, most of them doing a good job at screaming. I obviously don't understand Korean but I find the korean caster's almost constant yelling a bit fake.
Bottom line, I voted "Let them cast how they want".
Let them cast as they want, or you'll have faked emotions.
If you don't like a caster, just don't watch him. If he's so popular that he's the main caster in some events, then probably he's not that bad that you need to avoid watching him.
On July 29 2011 03:41 bonifaceviii wrote: As long as it doesn't sound fake, like Day9's enthusiasm often does (<3 Day9 forever, but you gotta admit he's not good at faking it).
I beg to differ, I feel as if Day9 is the one of, if not the most genuine caster out there. I never hear him fake enthusiasm or excitement. He is always genuinely into the game. I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think Day9 fakes anything, I get that vibe from casters like TotalBiscuit and others who use fake voices or don't know what they are talking about.
Excitement != good commentary. Passion != good commentary. The thing i hate about the overexcited yelling commentators we have in SC2 is that you can never really be sure when they're serious. It reduces the effect of them being excited when something genuinely exciting happens because they're just yelling "OH MY GOD" all game... that or talking about dumb stories.
Hm usually games are decided long before, and that's where casters get excited - when the first big lead is established. The end of the game is usually not the climax. For sports when a last second basket is made, that's the climactic moment. For any sc2 games that are casted where it's a base race, I imagine the excitement is live and authentic as they tear away at each other's bases.
I agree 100%. WHen I'm listening to the GSL and an English caster goes "Well that's basically GG" leading into silence, and then you hear the KR commentators in the background still going strong, all I'm thinking is "Damn, I wish I was watching with those guys right now"
Do not like pre-emptive GG's in my livereport threads, nor from my commentators >
I think we need to accept that sometimes the greatest moment in the game is 5sek before the gg, but that a lot of games are practically decided >2-5mins before the gg. Its not always that exciting to watch someone slowly get stomped down (aka, a player taking his time, being safe, playing well, not rushing to end the game) a long time after the deciding battle... Commentators forcing the issue, trying to make battles of 40 food vs 150 food be extremely exciting is a bit of a lie and not really that effective. If the games are close, I believe the current lineup of commentators are doing a good job at making the gg moment exciting, but the gg moment often comes 5mins before the actual gg.
Depends on the event. If it's the first round of a non-prize money 1,024 person tournament I definitely won't be as excited as if it's the 7th game of a best of 7 where the winner takes home $50,000.
I also make it a point when I cast to never say "And that's gg, and we are going to see a gg any second now". It takes the audience out of the game... I try to make it interesting as long as possible.
When this happens though, you get people who are like "This caster is retarded, this game has been over forever why is he still excited?" So it could be cultural in that regard.
Don't people find it insulting to their intelligence when commentators try and make out like the game is still exciting when it's blatantly over? Or are people so jaded that they can't just enjoy something that isn't thrill-a-minute?
On July 29 2011 03:46 Invol2ver wrote: You have to understand that not all games are "tied" at the end...and therefore you can't fake excitement. That's awkward. You use a tied game with 5 seconds to go as a reference, well I'll tell you that a similar situation in SC2 is SCfou vs Nestea, last season GSL semi-finals, game 5. That was a tie game that went down to the end. And there was excitement.
You just cant get excited when there isn't a close game, sporting events are the same way. You don't see football commentators going crazy when a team finishes 3-0 in regular time in a game that they clearly control. You do see them getting excited when its 1-1 in penalty kicks. This is the same for starcraft. The only difference is that there is no score like in most sports.
Exactly you can't compare a game when an aging fan favourite beat the best protoss in the world in his best match up with some typical uninteresting 1 sided stomp.
commentators need to know how to get excited, tastosis are really good at it, day9 is good, though a lot of poeple complain he gets too loud, i find it good : )
OMG those Korean commentators were SOOO Exciting and fun to listen to even though I have NO idea what they r saying. Would be nice to listen to that kind of thing more often for sure.
It takes a certain type of caster to pull off the excitement properly. I think artosis could do it because when he gets excited, he sounds genuinely excited. You can tell he is passionate about the game. Tasteless... Not as much.
I don't know if you all remember Klazart, but he had a voice and the passion to pull off the Korean level of excitement in the closing moments of the game.
The other aspect of it is that a lot of sc2 games don't end in a really exciting way.
Something I have notice aswell is sometimes, everyone knows it is over after a huge fight at the end of the game. The commentators are very excited during that fight and if the future loser gg just after losing the fight, it happens to be WAY better than if he just tries to play a bit more the game and gg later.
On July 29 2011 03:51 asmo.0 wrote: I think we need to accept that sometimes the greatest moment in the game is 5sek before the gg, but that a lot of games are practically decided >2-5mins before the gg. Its not always that exciting to watch someone slowly get stomped down (aka, a player taking his time, being safe, playing well, not rushing to end the game) a long time after the deciding battle... Commentators forcing the issue, trying to make battles of 40 food vs 150 food be extremely exciting is a bit of a lie and not really that effective. If the games are close, I believe the current lineup of commentators are doing a good job at making the gg moment exciting, but the gg moment often comes 5mins before the actual gg.
I agree with this a lot, the game ends usually a couple minutes before the GG.
I also would like to point out that InControL is a very excitable caster and i love him for it! He gives enthusiastic GGs.
Also, I wonder if Korean casters are more analytical or more shouty? It seems shouty, but maybe they just yell their analyses...
Depends on the situation. GSL finals, yes (even if they suck). Nestea vs SC, yes. Random team league match of Ro64 match, hell no. Unless the game is actually exciting, commentators shouldn't try to pretend it is.
Furthermore, there isn't a single commentator that can sound as excited as the Koreans. Whether the Koreans are genuinely excited or not, they sure sound like they are. We don't have that ability im afraid.
I think bigger problem then gg is that commentators dont catch action,like some drop that commentators dont notice because they are talking random stuff,i watched stream where terran dropped and killed spire,commentators didnt even notice it,when they noticed they were like "this drop wont do much dmg only 1 drone killed".
Often times they will piss me off coz they watch some army in middle of the map that isnt in battle and babble random stuff while theres some sort of harassment happening that i notice on minimap but they dont.
And those things seem to happen quite frequently every now and then ill see ling runby happen and they will notice it too late.
Imagine a buzzer beater which ties the game to send it into overtime. In overtime one team wins by 15 points. The climax is not always at the end of the game.
1. I think there are not really as much matches where such an dramatic GG is necessary.
2. When it is necessary I think it is done.
Look at this VOD from SC vs Nestea.
3. Some languages just don't carry a lot of energy with them. This sounds really stupid. But when you will say the exact same thing as the Koreans it will probably will not sound the same.
Just like German sounds if everyone is pretty mad (No offence) and there are probably more stereotypes on this, but I don't know them on the top of my hat.
A player is 100 supply ahead. There is no way he can lose. His army is already destroyed. There's nothing he can do and he just delaying what is inevitable.
Do you really see this to have the potential as being climatic? Not every game is like this (Nestea vs scfou game 5), but in reality over 90% of them are. That's why there isn't any excitement in a GG because it's completely fake.
I chose "Let them cast how they want", simply because I feel when the games DO become as close as you imply, and when the 'gg' IS as intense and "tiebreaking" so to speak, then they WILL be as excited as they should be. It's simply natural. Brood War games are much more commonly 20+ minutes, and because of the difficulty of macro and the army/economy size that far into many games, it's often very hard to tell who is ahead until the very end, when one decisive push or a series of key decisions finally decides the match.
In fact I would even argue against the point that "Korean commentators are always more excited at the end", because there are myriad Proleague/Starleague games that end in a simple "... ya gg." by the Korean commentators. Of course I have no idea what they're saying beforehand, but the way they say 'gg' you can tell they expected the outcome at any moment, the same way that "current SC2 commentators" do, and I think that'ssimply because there are fewer SC2 games that end THAT close/intense on average compared to BW. Both games certainly have both cases though.
The climax of that HBR game was the zerg drop, and all the harrass. Not that final engagement where the outcome was obviously expected. To be honest, for many games that drag on too long, do you really wanna sit there and be screaming when losses are given? Those yells, and i would be yelling just like that crowd, was because bisu got smashed, it was crys of fandom for yellows excellent play, not that mutas killed two reavers (though it could be translated that way, i dont know but its a stupid thing to yell over)
Forever in memory, Hong Jin-Ho... Hong Jin-Ho... Hong Jin-Ho...
most of the time, it's like "we will see the gg real soon" or "theres no way he can win this from now" etc aka no excitement at all but I dont blame it one the casters, the game itself needs to be close and nailbitting enough
I would love if English commentators were as skilled at making things as sound exciting as the Korean ones, but they're not. Until we're at a point when they can articulate smoothly and become genuinely excited at the game I prefer people try not to fake it, because its usually far worse than the typical low-key commentary we otherwise get.
I don't know what events you're thinking of, but when I watch events on stream I notice they put in some effort to make an enthusiastic GG. "AND THERE'S THE GG." Instantly Day9 and Chill come to mind when I think of that above phrase, and I really believe they're putting in the excitement that you want. When games are close, like the TSL finals or maybe NASL finals, I always feel like the commentators are excited.
Game winning shots are ALWAYS followed by big uproar, and close games in starcraft are no different. A 90-76 win in basketball isn't too unheard of either, and the same goes for starcraft. A 2 rax in tvz can be exciting, but if it is crippling enough and a 10 minute marine tank push from terran is definitely going to win it, I don't see why a commentator would need to say "WHAT A EXCITING GAME"
also, in events, games are played in bo3 or bo5, consecutively. Players will take a quick break to check a replay maybe, but there isn't really much lag between games. 3-5 games in an hour period compared to 3-5 games in the course of a week is much different in some ways.
Go find some bronze league replays and cast them. The day you can make every single one sound both exciting AND genuine from beginning to end is the day where I will concede that the casters need to do the same. Yes, that includes the ones where a brand new player comes in and starts to learn the game. That includes the ones where the players play hide the pylon. That includes the games where a genuine Bronze player plays a grandmaster smurf in a macro game. That includes the game where a terran turtles on two bases and a Zerg takes every single other expansion and starves him out.
Excitement just doesn't exist right to the end in every game. Did you watch the Stanley Cup final series this year where the canucks got demolished 0-7? How excited do you think the commentators were at the end of the third? Linking a single sports example of an intensely close game and comparing it to EVERY game of SC casted by english casters is flawed in so many ways.
If you want a competitive game where the last action invariably really matters, just watch EVO this weekend, fighting games one up RTS games in terms of viewability in some areas, specifically being able to see all the action at once and the end always being the most important part of a round due to the possibility of sick comebacks (which are much much rarer in RTS games and impossible in most situations).
They're not as good at showing strategic depth unless you really know the game well (like much better than the average TL SC2 viewer who will get what's going on but not be able to do it, like a lot of the really clever things top players do are only apparent to masters level type fighting game players primarily due to the much bigger link between execution and strategy, it's like if SC was nothing but more complicated micro), but they certainly have spectatorial advantages over RTSs in some respects.
On July 29 2011 03:41 bonifaceviii wrote: As long as it doesn't sound fake, like Day9's enthusiasm often does (<3 Day9 forever, but you gotta admit he's not good at faking it).
You can tell when Day is genuinely enthusiastic though.
I think it's much easier for commentators to sound really excited when you have a crowd of screaming and cheering fans in the background. If someone is doing their best to sound really excited and the crowd is just sitting there watching, it sounds like the commentator is trying too hard.
That's one of the reasons I loved the last MLG so much, the fans actually responded to many of the games.
Yeah one of the biggest let downs in foreign commentating [or any commentating] is the lack of ecstatic enthusiasm. I cant find the game fun if the commentators dont find it FUN.
On July 29 2011 03:41 bonifaceviii wrote: As long as it doesn't sound fake, like Day9's enthusiasm often does (<3 Day9 forever, but you gotta admit he's not good at faking it).
When I first heard Day9 cast, I thought he was totally faking too, but after a while I just realized that's just his personality and who he is.
I'd rather our commentators not got excited really, usually when a western commentator proclaims that they are "So excited for this match-up blah blah", it's a general indication that they are not actually excited about it, but simply readying their minds to fake enthusiasm for an hour or two.
The thing is, they just don't LOVE the game like the Korean commentators loved BroodWar, and sadly, I can see why.
This isn't just a starcraft thing, it's a english-speaking thing in general. Have you ever seen an english-speaking commentator cast an important goal scored in a futbol match? Now have you ever compared that to a brazilian commentator, or any other from south america?
I'd say it's a cultural thing. Which sucks tbh, cuz the more excitement always, the better
On July 29 2011 03:51 Eishi_Ki wrote: I agree 100%. WHen I'm listening to the GSL and an English caster goes "Well that's basically GG" leading into silence, and then you hear the KR commentators in the background still going strong, all I'm thinking is "Damn, I wish I was watching with those guys right now"
Do not like pre-emptive GG's in my livereport threads, nor from my commentators >
qft
It bugs me a ton when Tasteless says "Expect GG any minute" during games, especially when its a game that I don't feel is over, a game that is reasonably close with one person showing some sort of large, but not insurmountable, advantage. The problem is he says it nearly every game, and usually calls it 5 or more minutes before the game actually ends. I would much rather them say something like "Player X now has a massive lead" or "That was a huge blow to Player Y, it's going to be tough to recover from that", because players have shown that no situation is un-winnable. The "Expect GG any minute" really deflates the excitement in the game. I mean sure, not every game is going to be exciting, and there's nothing the casters can really do about that, but they should definitely avoid saying phrases that actually make it worse.
Those Korean commentators...my god, you wanna talk about passion for what you do?
Anyways, I think it's a per-commentator thing really. Some commentators like to get real worked up and others like to stay more analytical all the way to the end. I personally prefer it when you have one of each.
Edit: How the hell do you make quotes not massive? Isn't there a way to make them "click to see quote"?
One commentator I notice doing this a LOT is Wolf. Once the big battle ends, he starts talking about the game and strategy and it's great and all, but then when the GG comes, he just interrupts his thought with "GG" and continues with his sentence, like the end of the game is an inconvenience rather than, well, the entire point of the game. I agree that the game is usually decided, especially in the GSL, well before the GG is thrown out, but the fact that the actual end of the game is so neglected irks me.
Props to Wolf for being an amazing commentator though, imo a great choice for a permanent code A caster. I hope this post is seen as constructive criticism and not BM =S
All I can say about this is GG, but wouldn't it be kind of weird if Tasteless and Artosis were all like JEEEEEEJEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE at the end of matches?
I don't see the point in commentators holding a single syllable for 15 seconds. That's not what excitement is, and if anyone thinks that's what makes for excitement in sports I feel sad for them. The casters are excited during the exciting portions of a game (and hopefully the production is such that there are cuts to the crowd going nuts as well).
Someone linked to the Mexican "goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal" guy and seemed to not notice that this isn't something that's said at the end of a game, it's said in the middle of it during the action. In american football you will likewise have people going insane over a great player or for a touchdown, but almost never arbitrarily at the end of a game that was obviously decided a few minutes before. Starcraft is much the same and players will often drag the game out hoping to scratch a way back in. The excitement of the match came a few minutes before the gg during a big battle or from a key piece of scouting. Rarely does a gg coincide with a peak of excitement in Starcraft.
I want to hear "OMG EMPS! SO MANY BANELINGS! OH HE SNIPED THE BLAH BLAH BLAH!" during the battles that decide the game not "geegeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" when it's already apparent the game is decided.
I don't need to hear some crazy ridiculous GEEEEEEEEEEEGEEEEEEEEEEEE over a completely normal game. When a game is close, commentators will naturally get genuinely excited. I really don't need super excited shouting like how Day9 does it in every tournament.
I have to agree that Korean commentators generally sound more enthusiastic than their English counterparts, and I would like to see more English commentators emulate this Korean style. Looking around on Youtube, I found 2 commentaries of the same game. The English commentary makes it sound as if the game was won some time before GG was called, but the Korean commentary still sounds more exciting.
On July 29 2011 04:40 lunchrush wrote: One commentator I notice doing this a LOT is Wolf. Once the big battle ends, he starts talking about the game and strategy and it's great and all, but then when the GG comes, he just interrupts his thought with "GG" and continues with his sentence, like the end of the game is an inconvenience rather than, well, the entire point of the game. I agree that the game is usually decided, especially in the GSL, well before the GG is thrown out, but the fact that the actual end of the game is so neglected irks me.
Props to Wolf for being an amazing commentator though, imo a great choice for a permanent code A caster. I hope this post is seen as constructive criticism and not BM =S
I agree with this to an extent as well. I said months ago when Wolf was first brought in to code A that he needed a co-commentator to bring excitement to the game. In all honest I wouldn't mind if someone like Husky came out to co-commentate, because as much as his solo cast bugs me, the co-casts I have seen him do are actually quite good and it seems like he actually analyzes the games more with a co-caster than he does alone. Plus you can't deny that he has a passion for the game, can make them exciting, and has an arguably less annoying voice than moletrap did.
Scoring a goal in soccer is not equivalent to a gg in SC. Scoring a goal is like killing a bunch of workers, or winning a big battle, or having a baneling bomb go off, in all 3 cases most commentators are fairly excited. A "gg" is like reaching the 90 minute mark with one team up, I doubt most soccer commentators are excited when Portugal is beating N.Korea 7-0 and they reach the 90 minute mark.
I have to say that Tastosis is rly bad in this point. I know that the game is already lost, but saying: "Yeah... we can expect gg anymoment..." is rly boring. Even if one player have 1 base and the other is 200/200 with 6 bases, the koreans comentatos still screaming, and i think this is rly exiciting.
Screaming GG in an unfamthomly loud fashion is easier infront of a crowd of a thousand people compared to sitting in your room with people around you trying to sleep/not be disturbed by a million decibels of awesome hitting their eardrums.
Having that said, an excited caster is like the skin on the chicken of KFC. It makes the great games games you will always remember.
I'd agree that English commentators could get a little bit more excited at the end of the game, but overall I really do prefer the more laid back casting style (Tastosis being a prime example) that we see a lot in the English speaking Starcraft scene. I love to see commentators get really excited when something actually remarkable happens, but it gets very, very tiring when people just shout about what's happening even though it's all so obvious and expected. In more than half of the GSL matches, due both to the viewer's game knowledge and the analytic casting of the commentators, you can predict with a fair amount of certainty who will win before the final engagement, whether or not it appears visually to be an epic battle. For instance, if a 200/200 toss deathball rolls into a Zerg's base who has, for whatever reason, been down on his economy/upgrades/army production, it's fairly simple what happens. The Zerg army melts and the toss wins. It may look like an epic battle because Zerg armies almost always look big but it would just get tiresome and annoying if every time a situation that LOOKS epic but isn't actually anything special is responded to by the commentators by overexcited yelling. It may be better to the first time, unknowledgeable viewer, but I prefer the "and there's the gee gee" myself, in most situations.
its highly situational. you dont get excitement like that in group stages for example, this one is especially exciting because its YELLOW'S FIRST WIN IN 785 DAYS! even more sweeter because its a win over bisu.
but yeah, overall, i'd like to see more excitement...and less pointless jokes -,.-
i'd be happy if gomtv made korean streams viewable. they did at first, why not anymore???
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that English commentators need to be more excited. Not only does it show non-starcrafters that this is a real thing, it's hella exciting.
It's fine to hear excitement if it's natural. If it sounds in the least constructed, it completely turns me off, though. I tend to stay away from color commentators and ones who are a bit loud, but I can understand why others enjoy it.
The GGs sound pretty exciting when they should be as far as I know. If a person has lost a game more than 10 minutes before the gg, then screaming it is a little much.
I know what you are saying and I think some casters realize this. I really think casters like Day9 and Artosis make an effort to make the end exciting. But yelling the Korean "jay-jay" sounds a lot better than the English "jee-jee" so I can understand why english casters are kinda apprehensive about that
Anyone have VODs of korean commentators casting a lower status game? Like comparable to some of the daily 50 dollar tournaments we see in the foreign scene? I'd be very interested to see the level of excitement the korean commentators show in those.
The pool of VODs we see korean casters in are the games and tournaments that are really exciting, really prestigious, or have a gigantic prize pool. So obviously our perception can be enormously skewed.
I would go so far as to say that from a Korean perspective, do they think THEY lack excitement based on what they see from US? I'm sure most of the public there see only the super exciting games casted by english commentators...
I would say that the most important part of being a caster is not trying to fake it. And if the ending of a game isn't exciting, why try to fake it?natrually if it was a intense moment and a great climax the commentators will be excited, but if it was a clear domination from one player, and the game ended 5 minutes ago it is ahrd to be excited at the gg.
I really don't think this is a problem in SC2, most commentators are pretty good about this. Although i agree LoL has the most boring ends to games because of the way it is designed
On July 29 2011 05:38 Axeltoss wrote: Anyone have VODs of korean commentators casting a lower status game? Like comparable to some of the daily 50 dollar tournaments we see in the foreign scene? I'd be very interested to see the level of excitement the korean commentators show in those.
The pool of VODs we see korean casters in are the games and tournaments that are really exciting, really prestigious, or have a gigantic prize pool. So obviously our perception can be enormously skewed.
I would go so far as to say that from a Korean perspective, do they think THEY lack excitement based on what they see from US? I'm sure most of the public there see only the super exciting games casted by english commentators...
I dunno, just thinking about stuff
Look up the nevake account on youtube. Zatic still upload most of the vods that happen from MSL, OSL and proleague. His work doesn't get enough credit and you'll find all your 'run of the mill' games in there, and yes, for the most part, KR commentators do make it very exciting.
On July 29 2011 05:38 Axeltoss wrote: Anyone have VODs of korean commentators casting a lower status game? Like comparable to some of the daily 50 dollar tournaments we see in the foreign scene? I'd be very interested to see the level of excitement the korean commentators show in those.
The pool of VODs we see korean casters in are the games and tournaments that are really exciting, really prestigious, or have a gigantic prize pool. So obviously our perception can be enormously skewed.
I would go so far as to say that from a Korean perspective, do they think THEY lack excitement based on what they see from US? I'm sure most of the public there see only the super exciting games casted by english commentators...
I dunno, just thinking about stuff
the general view is that, they're both equally exciting but the key difference comes from professionalism. korean casters present the game to the viewers, while the foreign casters watch the game with the viewers.
The sports analogy doesn't make any sense. Starcraft is a game that is not decided by one event at the end of a game. It's normally over minutes before a "GG" is called, obviously a last second buzzer beater warrants excitement because you don't know what is going to happen. This is normally not the case in Starcraft, it happens sometimes but is definitely not the norm.
Also mock enthusiasm is just about the worst thing I could hear in a cast, other than making obvious game knowledge mistakes.
the general view is that, they're both equally exciting but the key difference comes from professionalism. korean casters present the game to the viewers, while the foreign casters watch the game with the viewers.
Is that professionalism or is it just style? There are plenty of professional sports (baseball, tennis, golf) that don't rely as heavily on play by play, and instead provide analysis.
Its not good if the English guys fake it, I don't want to see fake excitement, however it is kinda boring sometimes when noone gets riled up about well......anything really.
Also for some reason Korean just seems to flow better, like Spanish(ever seen Spanish football commentators?WTF?) Maybe its the words, the fluent high WPM or just the language.
I watch GSL with korean commentary and it is imo much more entertaining, sure I won't get analysis but I don't care about that ^^, in the end it all comes down to personal preference, I'd rather not have the english commentators fake it
The Vod of SC vs NesTea has been often reffered to in this thread as a prime example of how it should be in English commentary. I'd like to add NesTea vs Anypro Set 1 of the Ro8 last season. Both have in common that the commentators are Tastosis and NesTea as a player in them. At first glance you might say: "Well duh, NesTea is one of the best players in the world, of course he will produce impressive play. And Tastosis is the best casting duo" but I think that we're missing a key factor here. The reason these two games and the surrounding casts are so amazing has one more important fact to it: Artosis absolutely loves NesTea and he's genuinely excited about his play.
Casters can't and shouldn't be actors. What English casting needs is an intimate relationship between casters and players. I'm not suggesting that these people have dinner nights or anything ridiculous like that. I think casters need to focus on the story of those players and not only communicate it, but feel it themselves. Only if you feel the game that just has been won is as almost as big of a deal to you as it is for the guy who just won, you will be able to ignite this emotion within the audience.
This is one of the many reasons why Korean casters are much better than English casters (who usually weren't actually even trained, look at Jason Lee).
Along with the anticlimatic casting at the end of the game, they almost always premature GG before the players do. That's just totally against the point of casting. You cast to make it more enjoyable to watch, you don't GG to kill hype and end the game before it ends. (Looking at you Tastosis =/)
Ok, this is pretty much based on my experience watching the GSL and being a Tastosis fanboy, but when a game is over, a game is OVER. There's nothing that disappoints me more than when a caster insults my intelligence by making the game sound close when it's not. You can be as enthusiastic as you want, but when someone is at a 50 food disadvantage and are defending with the last of their army and workers, I don't care how particularly close *that* battle is, because the game is already over. I know it, the casters should know it and say it.
As far as Korean casters, no matter when I listen to them it sounds like they are talking non-stop, and I mean literally non-stop. There's just no reason for that, especially for the end of a game that's already over. What's the point of talking at 500 words per minute casting a game that's clearly, clearly over? Are we supposed to pretend we don't see the supply count? Are we supposed to pretend we don't see the worker count or base count?
On July 29 2011 04:46 beamer159 wrote: I have to agree that Korean commentators generally sound more enthusiastic than their English counterparts, and I would like to see more English commentators emulate this Korean style. Looking around on Youtube, I found 2 commentaries of the same game. The English commentary makes it sound as if the game was won some time before GG was called, but the Korean commentary still sounds more exciting.
You're completely missing the influence of the live crowd, and the fact that the event was actually live, unfolding before their very eyes. While I will give to you that moletrap is by no means as good a commentator as those professionals, the comparisons that are being drawn are just so nonsensical.
You can not compare commentary of a live event, with a live audience to a commentary that is done off of previous footage, not even being in the game at the time, from someone's home computer.
It's just not the same.
Edit:
On July 29 2011 05:51 Yiska wrote: The Vod of SC vs NesTea has been often reffered to in this thread as a prime example of how it should be in English commentary. I'd like to add NesTea vs Anypro Set 1 of the Ro8 last season. Both have in common that the commentators are Tastosis and NesTea as a player in them. At first glance you might say: "Well duh, NesTea is one of the best players in the world, of course he will produce impressive play. And Tastosis is the best casting duo" but I think that we're missing a key factor here. The reason these two games and the surrounding casts are so amazing has one more important fact to it: Artosis absolutely loves NesTea and he's genuinely excited about his play.
Casters can't and shouldn't be actors. What English casting needs is an intimate relationship between casters and players. I'm not suggesting that these people have dinner nights or anything ridiculous like that. I think casters need to focus on the story of those players and not only communicate it, but feel it themselves. Only if you feel the game that just has been won is as almost as big of a deal to you as it is for the guy who just won, you will be able to ignite this emotion within the audience.
I think you have a very good point there. There is a disconnect between korean players and foreigners. Something that our scene should hope to achieve.
Yes, the english commentators need to be more excited like the Korean commentators but only at the appropriate time. i mean, if its 40 supply vs 200 supply i don't expect the commentators to be screaming crazy
If you watch those Vods of the korean commentators it's actually more than 50% the audience that you hear cheering. Anyways I don't really see the problem with this as in big matches where it is tied and really exciting, Nestea vs sC, TSL3 finals, NASL finals etc. etc. this already happens.
i think you guys misunderstand, i am okay with mundane commentary for mundane games, but my main point is that as a whole, the commentator enthusiasm does not match the game's enthusiasm.
On July 29 2011 05:48 Moskau wrote: The sports analogy doesn't make any sense. Starcraft is a game that is not decided by one event at the end of a game. It's normally over minutes before a "GG" is called, obviously a last second buzzer beater warrants excitement because you don't know what is going to happen. This is normally not the case in Starcraft, it happens sometimes but is definitely not the norm.
Also mock enthusiasm is just about the worst thing I could hear in a cast, other than making obvious game knowledge mistakes.
the general view is that, they're both equally exciting but the key difference comes from professionalism. korean casters present the game to the viewers, while the foreign casters watch the game with the viewers.
Is that professionalism or is it just style? There are plenty of professional sports (baseball, tennis, golf) that don't rely as heavily on play by play, and instead provide analysis.
perhaps wrong choice of word, but i'm sure you see the difference yourself comparing professional sports and starcraft. what i mean is that, Jason Lee, i'd say is most "professional" when it comes to commentating compared to everyone else available in foreign scene. and if sc2 were to hit mainstream(likes of ESPN), Jason Lee would be preferred over, say Husky as an exaggeration. (i understand demography has a lot to do with it and i'd assume koreans have a lot more older viewers than westerners for obvious reasons)
Excitement is good, and I would love more than the usual "and there's the gg" that you usually see from English commentators, but you CANNOT force it. It will be awkward, it will be noticeable, it will suck.
I remember people ripping on gretorp for getting to excited at the gg's at the beginning of NASL because it seemed too forced. It is definitely a very delicate balance.
The it casters are doing an excellent job right now. It would detract from the overall experience if casters were to get disproportionally excited over games with foregone conclusions and the like. It's a false representation of what is going on onscreen and I think that it isn't beneficial to new viewers to be treated like idiots.
The last thing we need out there are more HD's and Huskies throwing out fake emotion. I dont care whether a caster has it or not, but I sure hate when they fake it. Let the Koreans be Korean, everyone is not the same and it sure would be boring if they were.
I do agree that english commentators need a bit more energy. Day9 and Husky are the two that probably use the most energy, and Day9 is very analytical as well. But a lot of games have a big engagement where there is a lot of energy, but then the loser of the battle frantically tries to rebuild, but gets crushed in the end. That is not as exciting as say the Nestea vs sC game, where the gg was right then and there. The loser of the big deciding battle may still have a small chance to comeback, but usually it is rare and ends in an anti-climatic "gg".
Sometimes, a manner mule, nuke, or dance is done and the commentators go crazy even though they know the game is already well over. It is slightly BM but it definitely provides a lot of funniness and excitement. Such as,Moletrap Screaming in GSL game But overall, english commentators do need some more energy.
Yea I dislike how a lot of commentators say "expect GG any moment now." Just make up stuff like this guy has to double expand and buy time etc. There are a couple of times when Tastosis have said "I don't think he can come back from this" and then the guy comes back.
Some of my friends have made the argument before that Korean casts are "more exciting" before and that they would prefer watching them over English casts. And I find it to be so irritating. If you don't understand Korean, what's the effing point. It's completely nonsensical. They could be talking about paint drying for all you know. Might as well pipe in sound from a cage full of agitated monkeys if you want "excitement".
In the same vein, saying that commentators calling gg early ruins the excitement is ridiculous. It's not like you're listening to it on the radio. You have eyes and brains (presumably), make your own mind up, don't let the commentators tell you when you can be excited.
Please god, no screaming. Artosis tries it sometimes, and it just irks me. Moletrap tries it, and it flat out scares me.
I want objective commentary. Screaming, obnoxious casters get muted quicker than hell, and I don't like watching a game with no sound.
And ALWAYS, the screaming, excited casters will stop actually commentating and will just be yelling the damn play by play at me that is clearly going on in front of my eyes. I want to hear about their chances of resupplying and their potential income to do so, while the big battle that might decide the game is going on.
And yes, day9 does "excitement" well, but like everyone else, it just get louder, and louder, and I can't stand it anymore and turn it off. Starcraft 2 games shouldn't wake up my freaking roommates.
On July 29 2011 03:48 TedJustice wrote: You can't force excitement.
If they're actually genuinely excited by the GG, that's great. If not, no big deal. I'd rather they not try to force it.
My thoughts exactly.
On July 29 2011 06:16 Honeybadger wrote: Please god, no screaming. Artosis tries it sometimes, and it just irks me. Moletrap tries it, and it flat out scares me.
Oh God, the Nuke-scream is the best thing I've ever heard.
On July 29 2011 06:15 thebigdonkey wrote: They could be talking about paint drying for all you know. Might as well pipe in sound from a cage full of agitated monkeys if you want "excitement".
This made my day. Well said.
The korean commentators are really forced, too. I've watched with my korean friend before, and he said something along the lines of "They're talking about using a supply drop. Why do they need to yell about it?"
Day Nine is the man for exciting casting. At least out of the English commentators. I'm sure he still has to fake the amount of excitement sometimes because he knows how games will play out better than the casual viewer. I think he's even admitted to faking it sometimes.
But still, the games that are actually exciting he is so good at casting. He speaks with a passion and enthusiasm like no other English commentator.
If you want to listen to overenthusiastic fake excitement at the GG, listen to gretorp's first few casts with NASL. it definitely does not add to the experience.
I think the excitement belongs at the exciting points of the game, and that is not always at the GG (the goals, not the buzzer).
On July 29 2011 06:15 thebigdonkey wrote: Some of my friends have made the argument before that Korean casts are "more exciting" before and that they would prefer watching them over English casts. And I find it to be so irritating. If you don't understand Korean, what's the effing point. It's completely nonsensical. They could be talking about paint drying for all you know. Might as well pipe in sound from a cage full of agitated monkeys if you want "excitement".
In the same vein, saying that commentators calling gg early ruins the excitement is ridiculous. It's not like you're listening to it on the radio. You have eyes and brains (presumably), make your own mind up, don't let the commentators tell you when you can be excited.
But it's annoying when you don't agree with the commentators, who are supposed to also be a source of reliable information and guidance.
Anyway, the other points of yours is just opinion so i'll leave it there.
I remember one game where I counted how many times Tasteless pre-GG'd, it was three times, over a duration of about 5 minutes. Instead of making those 5 minutes more exciting by talking about the chances each player had and may be hyping a possible comeback (which would therefore help keep viewers interested), they pre-GG'd more than once, and they were bad calls.
Edit:
Oh, and why are people saying that excitement is bad because it is usually forced? Sure it might be forced. But that doesn't mean it needs to be. It could be not forced, which would be ideal, which is what the OP is talking about.
On July 29 2011 06:18 Oboeman wrote: If you want to listen to overenthusiastic fake excitement at the GG, listen to gretorp's first few casts with NASL.
Listen to moletrap's first few days. That man shrieked out GG every time it happened, even in the most anticlimactic situations.
Thank god he calmed down eventually. Though him and doa was kind of painful. Very different types of people.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that the casters ought to try and make specifically the "gg" moment exciting. It undermines the genuinely exciting parts of a game if you introduce fake excitement. I swear to God atleast 80% of football commentary is the stuff like "Beckham passes to Giggs..to Neville, Neville to Beckham, back to Neville.. Now a long ball up field". No one gets up in football commentators buisness unless theyre being sexist about the female linesman so I dont see why it ought to be so important that you get 100mph enthusiasm every second of the game.
It seems some people think Tastosis is the prime example of calling games too early. Yes it has happened, but 99% of the time they're right. More importantly, when Artosis gets excited you can actually hear how genuine his passion is. Basically listen to any recent NesTea game, the first couple Bomber games in his series against Byun, the Sage games from the GSTL, etc. I think the genuine passion and excitement is better than a consistent, fake style.
I love Day[9] but I would say he is the opposite of Artosis in this sense. It was during MLG Columbus that his style became really grating to me. I don't know if it was just that tourny or what, since I've always loved Day[9]'s casting before that, but it seemed like he got way too over-excited and enthusiastic during incredibly mundane times. I know he finds brilliance in the simplest things and that's part of his charm, but he took it too far too often that tournament.
But it's annoying when you don't agree with the commentators, who are supposed to also be a source of reliable information and guidance.
Anyway, the other points of yours is just opinion so i'll leave it there.
I remember one game where I counted how many times Tasteless pre-GG'd, it was three times, over a duration of about 5 minutes. Instead of making those 5 minutes more exciting by talking about the chances each player had and may be hyping a possible comeback (which would therefore help keep viewers interested), they pre-GG'd more than once, and they were bad calls.
Edit:
Oh, and why are people saying that excitement is bad because it is usually forced? Sure it might be forced. But that doesn't mean it needs to be. It could be not forced, which would be ideal, which is what the OP is talking about.
Unless you're a pro gamer, you're not as in the know as tasteless is. A comeback in the situations when he calls a preemptive GG is exceedingly rare and hard to do.
Hyping possible comebacks is just goofy as hell. What you want is for commentators to force excitement, stream like a korean, and make up things that probably won't happen. That sounds like a recipe for the most annoying caster of all time.
On July 29 2011 06:15 thebigdonkey wrote: Some of my friends have made the argument before that Korean casts are "more exciting" before and that they would prefer watching them over English casts. And I find it to be so irritating. If you don't understand Korean, what's the effing point. It's completely nonsensical. They could be talking about paint drying for all you know. Might as well pipe in sound from a cage full of agitated monkeys if you want "excitement".
In the same vein, saying that commentators calling gg early ruins the excitement is ridiculous. It's not like you're listening to it on the radio. You have eyes and brains (presumably), make your own mind up, don't let the commentators tell you when you can be excited.
But it's annoying when you don't agree with the commentators, who are supposed to also be a source of reliable information and guidance.
Anyway, the other points of yours is just opinion so i'll leave it there.
I remember one game where I counted how many times Tasteless pre-GG'd, it was three times, over a duration of about 5 minutes. Instead of making those 5 minutes more exciting by talking about the chances each player had and may be hyping a possible comeback (which would therefore help keep viewers interested), they pre-GG'd more than once, and they were bad calls.
Edit:
Oh, and why are people saying that excitement is bad because it is usually forced? Sure it might be forced. But that doesn't mean it needs to be. It could be not forced, which would be ideal, which is what the OP is talking about.
I watch UFC pretty frequently and nothing annoys me more than Goldberg and Rogan trying to tell me I should be excited about a guy who is just going to lay on his opponent for 3 rounds to get a decision. It's insulting. That pretty much how I feel about this issue too.
What's funny is BW casters that are now SC2 casters used to get way more excited, Tasteless in particular. I don't know if that's because of the game, they're losing passion or what. I personally think there's less to get excited about.
Oh, and one big factor:
Having things like supply, resources etc. constantly in clear view makes it usually obvious who is going to win quite early. That big supply count under the player names that Blizz introduced is no good. The total lack of spectator doodads in BW give it a more cinematic feel, and you never quite know for sure who's ahead for most of it. Even the observer will sometimes delay a camera switch to a big army or tech. All the gizmos in SC2 obsing feels like a constant analytical breakdown of the game. Casters, PLEASE keep the supply/name overlay off.
On July 29 2011 06:33 Kyhol wrote: Jiyan <3 I believe that if the game is super close and exciting that they should naturally scream until they fall out of their chairs.
On July 29 2011 06:31 rift wrote: What's funny is BW casters that are now SC2 casters used to get way more excited, Tasteless in particular. I don't know if that's because of the game, they're losing passion or what. I personally think there's less to get excited about.
Oh, and one big factor:
Having things like supply, resources etc. constantly in clear view makes it usually clear who is going to win quite early. That big supply count under the player names that Blizz introduced is no good. The total lack of spectator doodads in BW give it a more cinematic feel, and you never quite know for sure who's ahead for most of it. Even the observer will sometimes delay a camera switch to a big army or tech. Casters, PLEASE keep the supply/name overlay off.
oh this.
not trying to troll but when i watch bw it does seem there's more exciting moments.
and also very true about supply. i think thats what makes gg in bw alot more exciting because you're never sure if one players totally out of it or whether he can turn it around.
it would be cool if streams had an option to remove such things but i doubt it will happen
i agree to an extent. the main problem is, a lot of games can be one-sided, and quite a few players employ some fantasy gg timing.
when someone is up 50+ supply for quite some time and it's obvious they have the game won, it's quite difficult to get excited for the actual moment the loser gg's out. there just aren't as many tense, close matches in sc2.
but like i said i agree, it's nice to see a commentator get incredibly excited about a player he loves winning: i.e. moletrap casting boxer/avenge
On July 29 2011 04:38 ffadicted wrote: This isn't just a starcraft thing, it's a english-speaking thing in general. Have you ever seen an english-speaking commentator cast an important goal scored in a futbol match? Now have you ever compared that to a brazilian commentator, or any other from south america?
I'd say it's a cultural thing. Which sucks tbh, cuz the more excitement always, the better
On July 29 2011 06:15 thebigdonkey wrote: Some of my friends have made the argument before that Korean casts are "more exciting" before and that they would prefer watching them over English casts. And I find it to be so irritating. If you don't understand Korean, what's the effing point. It's completely nonsensical. They could be talking about paint drying for all you know. Might as well pipe in sound from a cage full of agitated monkeys if you want "excitement".
In the same vein, saying that commentators calling gg early ruins the excitement is ridiculous. It's not like you're listening to it on the radio. You have eyes and brains (presumably), make your own mind up, don't let the commentators tell you when you can be excited.
But it's annoying when you don't agree with the commentators, who are supposed to also be a source of reliable information and guidance.
Anyway, the other points of yours is just opinion so i'll leave it there.
I remember one game where I counted how many times Tasteless pre-GG'd, it was three times, over a duration of about 5 minutes. Instead of making those 5 minutes more exciting by talking about the chances each player had and may be hyping a possible comeback (which would therefore help keep viewers interested), they pre-GG'd more than once, and they were bad calls.
Edit:
Oh, and why are people saying that excitement is bad because it is usually forced? Sure it might be forced. But that doesn't mean it needs to be. It could be not forced, which would be ideal, which is what the OP is talking about.
I watch UFC pretty frequently and nothing annoys me more than Goldberg and Rogan trying to tell me I should be excited about a guy who is just going to lay on his opponent for 3 rounds to get a decision. It's insulting. That pretty much how I feel about this issue too.
You can create excitement without misrepresenting reality. Don't say the game is over, say it will be very tough to come back. If the game really is over just say xy is far ahead and focus on the general story of the match and do play by play when there's an engagement.
Not saying it's easy and the losing player might still mess it up by giving up at an unexpected time, but there's no excuse for not trying at all.
Maybe because we lack those Flash vs. FireBatHero 2009 style of games? xD the hour long one.... that ending was SIIICK the crowd was going INSANE!!!
but yeah, it does feel like the commentator these days may not really show that sort of enthusiasm but i feel like at live events they are doing quite well, especially MMA vs IdrA lolol and i'm not trolling, their natural like, stunned silence was a thing of beauty lolol XD
I agree that you can't force excitement and I'd rather have people cast how they normally would because nothing is worse than a caster who fakes excitement and it's really noticeable. Now casters can definitely help pump up a crowd when the final battle is going on and everything works. When I mean 'works' the best gg is during a huge battle where people are going nuts and it involves 2 really good players. However a lot of people like to drag out sc2 games and it's hard to get excited when you have a game where someone is definitely going to lose but they just won't give up until every single unit of theirs is killed.
On July 29 2011 06:31 rift wrote: What's funny is BW casters that are now SC2 casters used to get way more excited, Tasteless in particular. I don't know if that's because of the game, they're losing passion or what. I personally think there's less to get excited about.
Oh, and one big factor:
Having things like supply, resources etc. constantly in clear view makes it usually clear who is going to win quite early. That big supply count under the player names that Blizz introduced is no good. The total lack of spectator doodads in BW give it a more cinematic feel, and you never quite know for sure who's ahead for most of it. Even the observer will sometimes delay a camera switch to a big army or tech. Casters, PLEASE keep the supply/name overlay off.
oh this.
not trying to troll but when i watch bw it does seem there's more exciting moments.
and also very true about supply. i think thats what makes gg in bw alot more exciting because you're never sure if one players totally out of it or whether he can turn it around.
it would be cool if streams had an option to remove such things but i doubt it will happen
This is interesting. I never got into the BW eSports scene but since falling in love with SC2 and then watching some BW games every now and then, I always had a suspicion that this was actually the reason people get so excited about BW.
The lack of information about the game for the spectator might ramp up the intensity and suspense but it's completely based in ignorance as opposed to what's actually happening. I'd rather have as much information about the match as possible so I can really get an understanding for what's going on.
At any rate, as a SC2 fan, this is one of the biggest barriers to BW spectating for me. I'm just really used to processing all of the information for myself and seeing if I agree with the caster's analysis. Without seeing unit counts, production tabs, resources, and supply counts you're so far in the dark that you can never really be sure you *know* what happened. For example, it may look like one final, epic battle decided a match but when you see the numbers they might tell a different story. Or, the game could have been lost 5-10 minutes before the actual "GG" but without the numbers you might never notice it.
On July 29 2011 03:46 Invol2ver wrote: You have to understand that not all games are "tied" at the end...and therefore you can't fake excitement. That's awkward. You use a tied game with 5 seconds to go as a reference, well I'll tell you that a similar situation in SC2 is SCfou vs Nestea, last season GSL semi-finals, game 5. That was a tie game that went down to the end. And there was excitement.
You just cant get excited when there isn't a close game, sporting events are the same way. You don't see football commentators going crazy when a team finishes 3-0 in regular time in a game that they clearly control. You do see them getting excited when its 1-1 in penalty kicks. This is the same for starcraft. The only difference is that there is no score like in most sports.
Well for example the game he linked wasn't even close at the end and they still got pretty excited...granted it was the finals and things are different if it's in the early rounds, but nonetheless this is an aspect of commentating that must improve. If the ending of games aren't close there were at least somewhat epic reasons why (blue flame drop for example) and its those moments that have to be more exciting even if it's not a huge battle.
On July 29 2011 03:46 Invol2ver wrote: You have to understand that not all games are "tied" at the end...and therefore you can't fake excitement. That's awkward. You use a tied game with 5 seconds to go as a reference, well I'll tell you that a similar situation in SC2 is SCfou vs Nestea, last season GSL semi-finals, game 5. That was a tie game that went down to the end. And there was excitement.
You just cant get excited when there isn't a close game, sporting events are the same way. You don't see football commentators going crazy when a team finishes 3-0 in regular time in a game that they clearly control. You do see them getting excited when its 1-1 in penalty kicks. This is the same for starcraft. The only difference is that there is no score like in most sports.
Well for example the game he linked wasn't even close at the end and they still got pretty excited...granted it was the finals and things are different if it's in the early rounds, but nonetheless this is an aspect of commentating that must improve. If the ending of games aren't close there were at least somewhat epic reasons why (blue flame drop for example) and its those moments that have to be more exciting even if it's not a huge battle.
OT but there is alot of ''history'' behind that game , Yellow hadn't won a game in over a single year, Bisu was on a rampage during that time and Yellow kicked his ass
Oldschool style.
Alot of regular BW matches end with a regular GG, it might be more exciting then the ''average'' gg(lol) but the good matches get that GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
But it's annoying when you don't agree with the commentators, who are supposed to also be a source of reliable information and guidance.
Anyway, the other points of yours is just opinion so i'll leave it there.
I remember one game where I counted how many times Tasteless pre-GG'd, it was three times, over a duration of about 5 minutes. Instead of making those 5 minutes more exciting by talking about the chances each player had and may be hyping a possible comeback (which would therefore help keep viewers interested), they pre-GG'd more than once, and they were bad calls.
Edit:
Oh, and why are people saying that excitement is bad because it is usually forced? Sure it might be forced. But that doesn't mean it needs to be. It could be not forced, which would be ideal, which is what the OP is talking about.
Unless you're a pro gamer, you're not as in the know as tasteless is. A comeback in the situations when he calls a preemptive GG is exceedingly rare and hard to do.
Hyping possible comebacks is just goofy as hell. What you want is for commentators to force excitement, stream like a korean, and make up things that probably won't happen. That sounds like a recipe for the most annoying caster of all time.
Yeah, most foreign caster attempts at an exciting GG are just forced and terrible. The only GG that has given me nerdchills is of course the previously mentioned Nestea vs SC final set. <3 Artosis
On July 29 2011 04:38 ffadicted wrote: This isn't just a starcraft thing, it's a english-speaking thing in general. Have you ever seen an english-speaking commentator cast an important goal scored in a futbol match? Now have you ever compared that to a brazilian commentator, or any other from south america?
I'd say it's a cultural thing. Which sucks tbh, cuz the more excitement always, the better
Sometimes the game is over tens of minutes before the GG, sometimes there is intense micro or a desperate battle where a single slip-up instantly causes the player to fall so far behind he immediately GGs as he makes a mistake or is drastically outplayed. Either of those requires a different approach by a caster, there is little reason to shout and scream about a GG when there is no real tension in the game itself. It sounds forced and awkward when someone is cleaning up a main base and a desperate counter-attack is launched but decisively thwarted and a caster goes nuts and unnecessarily (and annoyingly) shouts about the incredibly one-sided battle that leads into a GG and concludes the game.
This goes for both sides but it seems more seldom to me that a professional or aspiring Starcraft caster doesn't get excited about the game at correct periods, perhaps excluding the situations where a caster's lack of knowledge makes him oblivious to the gravity of the events taking place.
Mmh! I think it's a matter of preference. I find korean commentators enthusiasm irritating more often than not, and typically would prefer the dry, analytical commentary of IdrA to the BACON SHORTS FLAVOUR EXTRAVAGANZA that people of the TotalBiscuit nature provide.
Have we been watching the same games? Commentators have absolutely been excited by "ggs" when the game is close. Most games aren't worth screaming about, that doesn't make them boring games, or not worth watching.
My whole thing is, Koreans get way to excited. In that BW clip you showed a ton of hydras/mutas against cannons and probes and 2 reavers. If the zerg had GG I would have crapped my pants and screamed like a girl. Unless that was the end of a championship series I wouldn't dance around shooting a gun in the air.
It is almost as if they are surprised they GG and they cannot believe it when it was obvious who the winner was.
It's funny hearing about how everyone "loves the Korean commentator's excitement", but these people probably don't even speak Korean, so they don't even know whether that commentator is making insightful and entertaining comments or not. These same people will then bash exciting English commentators like TotalBiscuit for not knowing the game enough.
On July 29 2011 08:04 BuddhaMonk wrote: It's funny hearing about how everyone "loves the Korean commentator's excitement", but these people probably don't even speak Korean, so they don't even know whether that commentator is making insightful and entertaining comments or not. These same people will then bash exciting English commentators like TotalBiscuit for not knowing the game enough.
Lot's of korean BW commentators are ex-pro's so it's very unlikely that they make uninsightful comments.
On July 29 2011 08:04 ZenViper wrote: My whole thing is, Koreans get way to excited. In that BW clip you showed a ton of hydras/mutas against cannons and probes and 2 reavers. If the zerg had GG I would have crapped my pants and screamed like a girl. Unless that was the end of a championship series I wouldn't dance around shooting a gun in the air.
It is almost as if they are surprised they GG and they cannot believe it when it was obvious who the winner was.
Um, did you see who was playing? Maybe you don't understand Korean but if you understand the context of the players, you would understand the significance behind it.
Also another point, when Koreans commentate a game that's "essentially over", they don't hype the game up to be a close game. They rather talk about why a player is still in a game, why the game went as it did, how he could possibly come back and that kind of stuff. However they almost never say GG until the players type it.
GG are exciting when the games are exciting. Most of the game we saw now is "yeah, it's basically gg, he can't come back... 2 minutes pass... and yeah gg, he was too far behind" If the caster screams GG !!!!!!! in this kind of moment it'll sound too fake. GG have to be merited, just like the 2 videos the OP showed.
Don't let yourself being influenced by the American sports. The NFL, NBA are designed to produce climatic finish and they do it well. But I don't think SC2 is a game like this. Sometimes a situation will arise and the next battle will be determinant but that's not always the case. Forcing something into the game is something that I am reluctant approve of.
I had a further thought: I think people are being a little ignorant of the role that crowd atmosphere or lack of has on casting. Its much easier to present meaningfull excitement when there's a live crowd roaring in the background. This is something established sports that you are drawing comparisons with ALWAYS have that sc2 very often does not have.
It's incredibly difficult to mimic the Korean casters and their passion. The way they call the games is a lot different from what any other caster I know does.
If some of you guys didn't notice. The OGN/MBC commentators spend a lot of time on the storytelling element and add in a lot of ad-libbing based on the action going on. It works to amazing effect. In order to understand it you really have to know Korean well. ;/
On July 29 2011 06:31 rift wrote: What's funny is BW casters that are now SC2 casters used to get way more excited, Tasteless in particular. I don't know if that's because of the game, they're losing passion or what. I personally think there's less to get excited about.
Oh, and one big factor:
Having things like supply, resources etc. constantly in clear view makes it usually obvious who is going to win quite early. That big supply count under the player names that Blizz introduced is no good. The total lack of spectator doodads in BW give it a more cinematic feel, and you never quite know for sure who's ahead for most of it. Even the observer will sometimes delay a camera switch to a big army or tech. All the gizmos in SC2 obsing feels like a constant analytical breakdown of the game. Casters, PLEASE keep the supply/name overlay off.
Your train of thought is sound, but for the wrong reasons.
The reason supply count is so important is because right now, that's what really matters. True micro and real unit awareness are things we only BARELY see glimpses of these days in players like boxer and QXC. So the "big" battles matter more than they did in BW's later years.
As the game has matured, we've naturally progressed from max/max battles winning the game in one push, to smaller and smaller engagements. Think about how scrappy the bomber vs mvp or alicia vs mvp games were? units everywhere, low supply, low econ games. Shit was exciting as hell. As players get better, they will learn to do more with less (remember, a perfect strategy isn't when there is nothing more to ADD to a build, it's when there's nothing more to REMOVE from it) and we'll see these more cinematic games with skirmishes everywhere like BW had. The units, maps, and mechanics are all there. No vultures, lurkers, or reavers isn't going to change that.
Here's an example of a Korean "GEE GEEEEEEEEEEEE" in the GSL (warning, contains spoilers for FXO vs. IM).
Holy shit, that was just painful to listen to. There was no pacing, it was just SCREAMING.
And they do the same damn thing tasteless does, in a different form. They get louder and louder and LOUDER AND LOUDER about every little detail in the hope that something crazy happens, and when it doesn't, they just switch from LOUDER into DOOOOOOoooooooo. It's just obnoxious failed climax after failed climax. If our casters did that, or anything CLOSE to that, they'd find themselves with one less paying subscriber in ten minutes or less.
On July 29 2011 10:37 StarStruck wrote: It's incredibly difficult to mimic the Korean casters and their passion. The way they call the games is a lot different from what any other caster I know does.
If some of you guys didn't notice. The OGN/MBC commentators spend a lot of time on the storytelling element and add in a lot of ad-libbing based on the action going on. It works to amazing effect. In order to understand it you really have to know Korean well. ;/
This is what my korean friend mentioned as well. Lots and lots of insanely irrelevant information being shouted at you for nothing other than maintaining the breakneck casting pace they seem obsessed with.
I love a good Korean 'GEE GEE!!' as much as anyone but you can't force the issue. Some casters like Moletrap have the natural enthusiasm to call out a roaring gg but some just don't. It has to be natural because knowing a caster is faking excitement is just a buzzkill.
On July 29 2011 03:41 bonifaceviii wrote: As long as it doesn't sound fake, like Day9's enthusiasm often does (<3 Day9 forever, but you gotta admit he's not good at faking it).
I beg to differ, I feel as if Day9 is the one of, if not the most genuine caster out there. I never hear him fake enthusiasm or excitement. He is always genuinely into the game. I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think Day9 fakes anything, I get that vibe from casters like TotalBiscuit and others who use fake voices or don't know what they are talking about.
You obviously missed the MLG casts and haven't watched his stream since he came close to #300 ;-) I liked him ALOT more before. Now I watch mr.bitter instead.
i think when the time is right they go nuts when the GG comes but games where one player gets dominated and types out "gg" there is no reason to go nuts because it was expected was just nto a fun game 2 watch. but games that are close 4 base vs 4 base and one army crushes the other and goes in to win the game most english announcers get excited enough for me
The GG is the moneyshot of a starcraft game. When IdrA leaves without GG, it's like a pulling out suddenly and leaving the room during sex.
Commentators should help the viewer get excited and bring it to a climax. As the OP says, part of the joy of watching a good starcraft game is the buildup of tension and final release with the GG.
On July 29 2011 07:30 Maliris wrote: i miss klazart He got me into BW all those years ago, even though he was clueless he was still a good introductory commentator like hd/husky
I bring him up as a mockery of what people want, but I agree. His shit was so off the wall with unbridled PASSION for what he was seeing, it was just fun to listen to.
But good lord, if you stuck him in a casting position with the GSL, the first five or so games would be hilarious, and after that they'd want to make me run my computer through a wood chipper.
On July 29 2011 11:41 Zealotdriver wrote: The GG is the moneyshot of a starcraft game. When IdrA leaves without GG, it's like a pulling out suddenly and leaving the room during sex.
This thread is now officially about comparing sc2 commentary to sex.
One of the bigger things people forget is that the english language and it's general social conventions don't lead well into having super-exciting GGs, and whenever people do do it, they sound like they're "Faking" or "trying too hard" a-la Klazart. Theoretically, I'd like to see it, but it'd take special soul to do it and not make it somewhat awkward.
Korean commentators only really yell GG!!!! When the GG comes after an exciting moment. It's not all that uncommon for them to give a much smaller GG announcement after a roflstomp game. That being said it would be more exciting to hear a more korean style GG yell in those exciting situations from foreign casters.
I don't think it's a single climax that ends just before or at the GG, though
I think there are peaks and valleys throughout a game and usually right before the gg, or as its happening, is about as low as the valley gets besides the first few minutes because the viewer knows the outcome. if there was still mystery when the gg dropped well, that would mean whoever quit wasn't being very smart to quit.
that being said, I think there is a lack of value granted to a WIN in starcraft, and that's something I think day9 actually does awesomely. a gg isn't just a sign that someone in the game realized it's over, it means someone has achieved victory over an enemy. in general I think it ought to be more hyped in that sense
It's like a slow tug-of-war where you see the winner slowly drag the rope past the winning line.
The final moments never mean much, especially with late gg timing. The key moments all took place prior to the end. Of course there are the rare games where it goes down to the very last second.
i think having a large live crowd has a big effect on this. i remember the casting at mlg columbus being super exciting, and part of that is the roar of the crowd behind the caster as the caster gets excited. with the gsl the crowds are so small that it can sound awkward if the caster is just screaming when there is barely any other noise in the room. but larger events are louder too and force the caster to get louder. in the video you see the same thing, the crowd is getting into, and the casting seems more exciting because of it.
Meh. I think it has something to do with the fact that a Starcraft match can be over or practically won a long time before the GG. That doesn't explain why Koreans get so excited at it in relation to English commentators.
Broodwar was better to cast because of small fights all over the map. I think it all comes down to having a slower paced game with 12 unit hotkey groups doing work all over, vs. Having all your focus on one push that's over in 10 seconds. BW felt like a long rollercoaster ride, and sc2 feels like a haunted house: boring with bits of excitement.
I dont know, i feel like most of the time a gg isn't comparable to a last minute go ahead goal/basket/touchdown, but rather more resembles the result of a blowout, as you know that the gg is coming most of the time. And in blowout games, commentators usually just will leave you with a "and that will do it" in a fairly mellow tone.
I think even mentioning "gg" at the end of games should be reserved for epic, exciting games. Why not speak the truth - "well, glad that one is over. they weren't playing too well" instead of "OH MY GOD AND BECAUSE I HAVE NO PERSONALITY, THERE'S THE GG!!!"
I think what it comes down to is that there are about a million other things you can say right up until GG comes up on the screen. I agree that 'GG' should be a bigger moment from the casters. It is, after all, the moment of surrender, and should never be taken lightly. Even in a steamroll game, the GG should be met with thunderous enthusiasm.
The 'GG' is the pinnacle of game-enders: it's the buzzer beater, the last play. The moment itself should be glorified and cherished, as one person delivers the crushing blow(s) to the other. GG is the knock out punch landing on the chin, all the way to the fighter hitting the mat.
Emphasis should always be placed on this time. It's what every player plays for, what every fan watches for:
On July 29 2011 11:41 Zealotdriver wrote: The GG is the moneyshot of a starcraft game. When IdrA leaves without GG, it's like a pulling out suddenly and leaving the room during sex.
Commentators should help the viewer get excited and bring it to a climax. As the OP says, part of the joy of watching a good starcraft game is the buildup of tension and final release with the GG.
The game is casted in french so go to straight to the end and you will never be able to hear "and there's the gg" by djWheat whithout thinking something's missing.
I fall in between wanting commentators to hype the GG a lot, and letting them do it their own way.
If it's a game where the guy loses in an awful, unexciting fashion, then don't go "OMG WTF GG" or scream or anything... But in a bo7 tournament series, the GG had better be freakin big and loud. Even watching from my computer I get sick nerd chills at finals... like MC vs. Puma... wow.
Yeah, for me, it's about context. Like why the game is being played (tourny vs ladder), or how the game ends (total screw up by one player vs epic battle).
I'd much rather commentator's enthusiasm was proportional to the excitement of the game. A lot of the time when GG is thrown out there, it isn't an accurate description of the game and shouldn't be treated as otherwise.
On July 29 2011 11:41 Zealotdriver wrote: The GG is the moneyshot of a starcraft game. When IdrA leaves without GG, it's like a pulling out suddenly and leaving the room during sex.
Commentators should help the viewer get excited and bring it to a climax. As the OP says, part of the joy of watching a good starcraft game is the buildup of tension and final release with the GG.
What? The difference between seeing so and so say "gg," and "so and so has left the game" are extremely minor and superficial. If anything the fact that idra sometimes pulls out of a game rather quickly instead of waiting until it's super obvious he has zero chance actually makes the ending more exciting / dramatic, because the end of the game comes right after the key successful moment.
I think this whole thread shows that, unless you have an amazing talent which combines both, it is always good to have a duo cast, one who is always excited and manages to build tension, and one who can analyze everything.
Having it done by 2 people, means the tension is sometimes lowered when the analysis is being done. This is a good thing, as then Mr excited can build it up again. You can compare it to music, it doesn't work just playing LOUD all the time, you have to build up, slowly, back down sometimes, until you eventually build your climax.
And that doesn't have to be the GG, could well be any other moment in the games, as long as the entire cast in it's own tells a nice story, is nicely paced, offers a nice combination of variety and balance between excitement and analysis.
You see this happening quite a lot now too, so I think it has proven to be successful. And just yelling GG will not build any tension if it isn't in line with the rest of the cast. Just having the priest yell "AMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN" for 2 minutes after church, does not make it for an hour long exiting experience.
EPT
