|
On July 23 2011 09:26 Hatefiend wrote:
The average amount of time it takes for a human to press a key, release that same key, and press the same key again is close to 1/8th of a second. (0.125 milliseconds) Introducing latency and Starcraft registering the key press rounds this to about 1/5th of a second. (0.2 milliseconds).
This paragraph makes no sense. Why press twice and release once? 0.125 miliseconds? And where did the number come from in the first place? Introducing latency? 10 key presses won't be delayed any more than a single key press.
As for the point of your post, I feel that it's something that's obvious.
|
On July 23 2011 09:52 Hatefiend wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:40 DarthXX wrote:
I don't hold for small numbers (eg. 2 drones at 10-12) because there is a small delay between when you hold down the button, and when the units actually make. You're first unit will make, then there's that little delay and then the rest go at whatever the repeat rate is set for on your keyboard.
Unless you mean holding down D before the OL spawns, but the difference is so small it's negligible. The extra milliseconds won't add up throughout the game as you shouldn't be getting supply blocked beyond that first OL you make, hence another situation where you are waiting for the OL to spawn before making drones will happen very rarely if ever. Around 5 builds is when the process begins to even out. The delay of holding is around a half a second long. Considering each different build takes ~0.2 seconds to complete while key spamming, it quickly begins to get dwarfed by the holding method. Plus, it's always good to build good habits. "The difference is negligible" excuse is just a poor answer. I was watching Destiny and Day9 talk on Friendsday Wednesday this week, and Destiny wasn't even sure if Extractor Trick was better than 9 OL, or even if double extractor trick was worth it. He said he read it somewhere that he could not remember and kept the individuals word for it. Things like that are careless and come off as lazy. If you don't believe me on the holding technique, open a custom game vs a computer and try it yourself.
For what you said about Destiny:
It proves that these tiny petty things aren't that important. What matters is that you can react according to your enemy. I guarantee you that no human will lose a game because they were tapping instead of holding. Guaranteed.
HOWEVER, I don't mean to take away from what you wrote. It could be useful if you had 12 larvae, and wanted them to all be zerglings for instance.
|
I'm pretty sure most pros do this already, I started doing it after I noticed players like idra had the "you have not enough minerals" message pop up about 10 times right before they'd make their first drones. Also its not a continuous entry but rather a very fast repetition. to make it as fast as possible, make sure you go to the control panel and shorten the activation length as well as the repetition speed.
Finally i don't think it actually makes much of a difference, in fact you get better at spamming that key if you do it the normal way, though that probably doesn't make much of a difference either.
I would say that holding down buttons with rates turned up makes a huge difference for spells and warp ins however.
|
1. Not all people know of this.
2. Not all people know if there's a difference between the two.
3. Not all people know if one is better than the other.
4. Not all people know which is good in what situation.
Finally.
5. Not all people want or are willing to change.
|
On July 23 2011 10:47 megaBICEPS wrote:
I'm pretty sure most pros do this already, I started doing it after I noticed players like idra had the "you have not enough minerals" message pop up about 10 times right before they'd make their first drones. Also its not a continuous entry but rather a very fast repetition. to make it as fast as possible, make sure you go to the control panel and shorten the activation length as well as the repetition speed.
Finally i don't think it actually makes much of a difference, in fact you get better at spamming that key if you do it the normal way, though that probably doesn't make much of a difference either.
I would say that holding down buttons with rates turned up makes a huge difference for spells and warp ins however.
You can tell if pros do it if the unit plating on their action bar is glowing and not blinking.
|
I am fully aware of holding down hotkeys (especially as a zerg player), but like the OP said, I don't know why some high level players (particularly zergs) decide to spam tapping a production key instead of holding it down.
That said, I'd also like to clairify something the OP said, that holding a key down is considered a continual action that will respond ASAP. While it can be very insignificant, it is not really a continual thing as far as I understand, but a specific (and variable) polling rate. This polling rate can be very fast, but not as fast as digitally possible, which would be a more proper use of continuous.
SC2 uses the operating system's built-in repeat-delay and repeat-frequency values for repeating a key once it's held down.
One thing blizzard did do somewhat recently though I think, was to consider holding down a hotkey as only 1 action (for in-game APM reporting purposes) even if it did multiple of the same action. I don't know this for sure, but that's what I thought happened in a patch a while back.
|
I think this was the first thing blizzard implemented, its been around for soooooooooooo long. I remember doing it in Alpha
|
Um. 0.125 milliseconds = 0.000125 seconds
That's 1/2400th the amount of time it takes you to blink.
|
On July 23 2011 10:37 iNSiPiD1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:52 Hatefiend wrote:On July 23 2011 09:40 DarthXX wrote:
I don't hold for small numbers (eg. 2 drones at 10-12) because there is a small delay between when you hold down the button, and when the units actually make. You're first unit will make, then there's that little delay and then the rest go at whatever the repeat rate is set for on your keyboard.
Unless you mean holding down D before the OL spawns, but the difference is so small it's negligible. The extra milliseconds won't add up throughout the game as you shouldn't be getting supply blocked beyond that first OL you make, hence another situation where you are waiting for the OL to spawn before making drones will happen very rarely if ever. Around 5 builds is when the process begins to even out. The delay of holding is around a half a second long. Considering each different build takes ~0.2 seconds to complete while key spamming, it quickly begins to get dwarfed by the holding method. Plus, it's always good to build good habits. "The difference is negligible" excuse is just a poor answer. I was watching Destiny and Day9 talk on Friendsday Wednesday this week, and Destiny wasn't even sure if Extractor Trick was better than 9 OL, or even if double extractor trick was worth it. He said he read it somewhere that he could not remember and kept the individuals word for it. Things like that are careless and come off as lazy. If you don't believe me on the holding technique, open a custom game vs a computer and try it yourself. For what you said about Destiny: It proves that these tiny petty things aren't that important. What matters is that you can react according to your enemy. I guarantee you that no human will lose a game because they were tapping instead of holding. Guaranteed. HOWEVER, I don't mean to take away from what you wrote. It could be useful if you had 12 larvae, and wanted them to all be zerglings for instance.
It's these tiny things though that make a really big difference in how you play. Do you know what I am talking about? I am going to say this right now, you aren't ever going to have a game where holding will make or break you.
It's like binding your upgrading facilities to 0 so you remember to use them more often, or binding your scouting overlords so you can fly back and forth vision to vision quickly. I could name example after example of these tiny little things but what I am offering in this post is just a statistically better way to make units.
Imagine that you were holding your pencil wrong or something. And I am suggesting that laying it flat against the area between your thumb and index is better. It's a horrible analogy I know, but that's what I am trying to get across. Holding your pencil wrong isn't going to stop you from writing an essay but holding it right will help make it easier and faster.
|
On July 23 2011 11:10 Chargelot wrote:
Um. 0.125 milliseconds = 0.000125 seconds
That's 1/2400th the amount of time it takes you to blink.
Sorry, I meant seconds. I fixed it in the OP.
|
On July 23 2011 11:02 Xapti wrote:
I am fully aware of holding down hotkeys (especially as a zerg player), but like the OP said, I don't know why some high level players (particularly zergs) decide to spam tapping a production key instead of holding it down.
That said, I'd also like to clairify something the OP said, that holding a key down is considered a continual action that will respond ASAP. While it can be very insignificant, it is not really a continual thing as far as I understand, but a specific (and variable) polling rate. This polling rate can be very fast, but not as fast as digitally possible, which would be a more proper use of continuous.
SC2 uses the operating system's built-in repeat-delay and repeat-frequency values for repeating a key once it's held down.
One thing blizzard did do somewhat recently though I think, was to consider holding down a hotkey as only 1 action (for in-game APM reporting purposes) even if it did multiple of the same action. I don't know this for sure, but that's what I thought happened in a patch a while back.
Starcraft 2 as a program responds to holding faster than a human can physically press the button repeatedly. If you mashed your keys as fast as you possibly could, even to the point of breaking your keyboard, it would still not be faster.
|
On July 23 2011 11:12 Hatefiend wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:10 Chargelot wrote:
Um. 0.125 milliseconds = 0.000125 seconds
That's 1/2400th the amount of time it takes you to blink. Sorry, I meant seconds. I fixed it in the OP.
Haha okay. Just checking.
|
If you go into your Control Panel -> Keyboard and set your 'repeat delay' to shortest, holding down hotkeys is the greatest thing ever!
|
On July 23 2011 11:58 Lunchador wrote:
If you go into your Control Panel -> Keyboard and set your 'repeat delay' to shortest, holding down hotkeys is the greatest thing ever!
That's a great tip! Mine was 3/4 toward the shortest. I set it all the way ^_^ .
|
Great guide! Maybe for your next one you can teach people how to scroll the screen!
|
Did you ever stop and think that when the Z pro players don't utilize the "hold" trick is when they are actually making 2 or 3 different types of units with their larva? Correct me if I'm wrong, I rarely play Z, but isn't it incredibly hard, if even possible, to produce a pre-determined amount of units with the hold trick? It feels like if you hold down R for example, you'll produce roaches for all of your money or larva in a second, say you want 12 roaches 5 drones and 2 overlords? Would that be possible to do with the hold trick efficiently?
|
the early game spamming isn't really spamming, i guess from an outside observe you can definatly see it as that but its really getting your mind into a faster mode, maybe not everyone uses it that way and makes mistakes while doing it but its a good tool to keep you focused on the game, its like playing a metal guitar song, you might start off slow or fast but you know the fastness will come~
You start off the game with a ceiling high apm level, and you try to strive for it the entire game even though you know its impossible, only when you sacrifice game sense for apm does it become a deterrent!
|
My zerg brother swears that there's a delay before the game recognizes the first key press after a building built or larva spawns. He'll wait until the larva pops and then hold down his desired key rather than say selecting a near-completed barracks and holding the key down immediately. As a non zerg player I find this less all purpose but still worthwhile.
|
On July 23 2011 11:15 Hatefiend wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:02 Xapti wrote:
I am fully aware of holding down hotkeys (especially as a zerg player), but like the OP said, I don't know why some high level players (particularly zergs) decide to spam tapping a production key instead of holding it down.
That said, I'd also like to clairify something the OP said, that holding a key down is considered a continual action that will respond ASAP. While it can be very insignificant, it is not really a continual thing as far as I understand, but a specific (and variable) polling rate. This polling rate can be very fast, but not as fast as digitally possible, which would be a more proper use of continuous.
SC2 uses the operating system's built-in repeat-delay and repeat-frequency values for repeating a key once it's held down.
One thing blizzard did do somewhat recently though I think, was to consider holding down a hotkey as only 1 action (for in-game APM reporting purposes) even if it did multiple of the same action. I don't know this for sure, but that's what I thought happened in a patch a while back. Starcraft 2 as a program responds to holding faster than a human can physically press the button repeatedly. If you mashed your keys as fast as you possibly could, even to the point of breaking your keyboard, it would still not be faster. I'm not disagreeing with you. You also didn't seem to be addressing what I said.
• I am aware that at maximum repeat speed, the frequency the key-press command is issued is faster than humanly possible when held down than if physically pressed repeatedly. (Hence why I said I don't know why some pros still spam pressing)
• SC2 uses the operating system's repeat delay and repeat-start delay times, which can be set to faster or slower speeds. At a slower speed, a human could type faster than it repeats.
• The Operating system's minimum repeat delay and repeat-start delay times are NOT continuous in the sense that they have distinct delays between simulated presses which are LARGER than the OS can actually do. Both windows and Mac have a 31 key repeat frequency maximum as far as I know, which is about 30ms delay. Using different software and/or hardware, that value can be at least twice as fast, or even 3x as fast, without simulation.
|
Yeah, it still works. I use it all of the time for late game zerg...Holding down Z is so much fun. =)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
