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On July 21 2011 17:34 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:30 Fionn wrote:On July 21 2011 17:29 wats0n wrote:
The point about contracts isn't that Puma didn't have one. It's that he didn't break one. He didn't leave for EG while still under contract.
TSL has released him so you don't know that he would not have played out the contract. In my opinion, the only reason they release him is because the benefit of releasing him and saving face outweighs the probably short remaining time on his deal.
That they would rather publicly embarrass him than let him play out his deal is low class and I have no sympathy for them. Where do you get these facts? You're just making stuff up. Huh? Are you dense? It's right in the OP that TSL released him. What did I make up? If they wanted to enforce a contract they could have. Instead they released him. That's a fact, Jack.
So a coach honoring a player's wishes despite rank betrayal is an attempt to publicly embarrass him?
Wat.
User was warned for this post
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I understand how the TSL manager felt but to be fair PuMa didn't really break any contract (if there was any at all).
Hmmm...Would other wealthy foreign teams do the same thing? 
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OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
@ZimiRabid Yeah, nothing of that is clear. But it's still true TSL had a salary for every player o_o
So...All players were being paid. To be paid you'd probably have to sign a contract.
You guys still sure about this whole "there was no contract!" thing?
Also, what exactly is puma being "released" from? Its not captivity. Perhaps its from *gasp* a contract?
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Can someone from EG confirm or explain what happened ? Because all I can read here is "I think", "could be", "most likely" etc etc. Some official statement would be nice. PEACE !
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On July 21 2011 17:21 FryktSkyene wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:20 orgasmic wrote:On July 21 2011 17:16 Gamegene wrote:On July 21 2011 17:11 arbitrageur wrote:
Exactly. Which is why I'm asking all the EG condemners here why poaching is a bad thing (i.e. taking players w/out consulting TSL mgmt). So many pepole are saying it's bad but can someone plz tell me why it's bad? Don't buy Intel, Steelseries, Monster, Kingston products. Are you fuckin' kidding me? I can do that. Cept' Intel... You need intel chips...there flat out the best..
same thoughts here. steelseries is inferior to razer (my Ikari mouse died and customer service was useless while i've had no problems with Razer products), monster inferior to both rockstar and red bull (monster is just sugar, and probably not even real sugar), and kingston inferior to corsair in my experience. but Intel is too good at chips.
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On July 21 2011 17:34 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:30 Fionn wrote:On July 21 2011 17:29 wats0n wrote:
The point about contracts isn't that Puma didn't have one. It's that he didn't break one. He didn't leave for EG while still under contract.
TSL has released him so you don't know that he would not have played out the contract. In my opinion, the only reason they release him is because the benefit of releasing him and saving face outweighs the probably short remaining time on his deal.
That they would rather publicly embarrass him than let him play out his deal is low class and I have no sympathy for them. Where do you get these facts? You're just making stuff up. Huh? Are you dense? It's right in the OP that TSL released him. What did I make up? If they wanted to enforce a contract they could have. Instead they released him. That's a fact, Jack.
I'm not sure the issue is that they let him go. I think most people accept that Coach Lee decided it wasn't worth keeping him on if he was going to leave anyway.
I think the issue is was it ethical for EG to put TSL in that position.
I could be wrong though.
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On July 21 2011 17:33 Cuddle wrote:
I don't understand how this is terrible by either Puma or EG.
I have a job, I'm contracted and have a salary. I get job offers by other companies every now and then, I talk to them about what they offer and when I find something I prefer to my current work situation (be it better pay, better work environment or what have you) I go tell my current boss that I have gotten a better offer and I resign my position. According to basic Swedish employee law (which is in my contract) I have to stay on for 3 month after quitting (to give my employee a chance to find a replacement) BUT we can negotiate this time down to 0 days if both parts agree.
It seems like this was exactly what happened in the Puma-EG case and I don't see anything wrong with it, at all. If TSL wanted to hold Puma to his contract, they could probably have and EG would have had to wait until it expired. They chose not to, in agreement with Puma. Case closed.
Oh thank god, someone with a brain. You are a rare breed.
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On July 21 2011 17:34 manicshock wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:31 zerglingsfolife wrote:On July 21 2011 17:31 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 17:30 vojnik wrote:On July 21 2011 17:29 Fionn wrote:On July 21 2011 17:27 vojnik wrote:
i see many people are so naive and live in a fairy tale
if you think koreans wont do the same having the opurtunity EG had you are soooo wrong
DIMAGA was directly approached by Startale during World vs Korea games in GSL
Many people talk about Puma like he is an object or property, he was given an offer, the thought it trough and decided its a better step for his life and carrier, if there was some breach in contract there are LEGAL tools people can use instead of whining. Source please? Dimaga said that in an interview while he was in the GOM House so uh source please? you saying he said something is not source you know He said it, it might be in kelly milkis justin tv channel in an old vod. There's proof of life on other planets. It's true, just look in that giant dusty library that's deep underground that may exist you just have to look for it. I'll let you do the digging though.
Do you only say stuff that you have evidence off close at hand?
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On July 21 2011 16:52 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 16:50 FXOpen wrote:On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote:
Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports. Well put. I agree. It could have been different also, like "Hey man, you are good. If you ever want to leave your team give us a call." Then Puma sits around, thinks, and says "Hmm...maybe they can..", he gives them a call and says "What can you give me?" It could have totally been something casual like this. I think until more details come out, everyone needs to settle down some.
Actually those kind of stuff are inappropriate, contacting players without the permission of the team manager are even not allowed in some sports like soccer. Of course you can talk to them whenever you want, but to offer them to join their team while the player themselve is already on a team is inappropriate and it's considered as disrespectful in the professional world.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 21 2011 17:36 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
@ZimiRabid Yeah, nothing of that is clear. But it's still true TSL had a salary for every player o_o
So...All players were being paid. To be paid you'd probably have to sign a contract. You guys still sure about this whole "there was no contract!" thing?
There was never a source saying Puma DIDN'T have a contract. That was just someone translating crap from a random member from PlayXP. That's like someone taking a random rumor someone made on TL and posting it on a Korean site as fact.
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On July 21 2011 17:32 enecateReAP wrote:
Awesome news!
I don't see why people are getting butt-hurt? You wanted koreans in the foreigner scene forever...and now we're getting them?
TSL do NOT pay salleries, FD and Tester were the only salleried players. If a player, wants to leave an organisation in which he puts 10 hours a day in...for virtually the CHANCE to make a living, would rather give that up to make a stable living, then that is perfectly fine by me.
EG asked him if he wanted to join, I don't see the big deal, Puma obviously wanted to join a foreigner team.
actually TSL was the first team to pay salaries to the players.
altho this was a while back (march 11) the manager mr. lee have said that they are going to pay all of the players in TSL salaries.
playxp.com article link
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On July 21 2011 17:33 Cuddle wrote:
I don't understand how this is terrible by either Puma or EG.
I have a job, I'm contracted and have a salary. I get job offers by other companies every now and then, I talk to them about what they offer and when I find something I prefer to my current work situation (be it better pay, better work environment or what have you) I go tell my current boss that I have gotten a better offer and I resign my position. According to basic Swedish employee law (which is in my contract) I have to stay on for 3 month after quitting (to give my employee a chance to find a replacement) BUT we can negotiate this time down to 0 days if both parts agree.
It seems like this was exactly what happened in the Puma-EG case and I don't see anything wrong with it, at all. If TSL wanted to hold Puma to his contract, they could probably have and EG would have had to wait until it expired. They chose not to, in agreement with Puma. Case closed.
This is 100% how I see it.
Another thing I find interesting is that they're releasing him rather than letting his contract run its course. That's a very telling action. They've obviously judged that releasing him and publicly admonishing him is more beneficial to their position than letting him stay and finish the contract. They're feeding the Korean netizens bullshit just to save face and people are actually buying it.
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On July 21 2011 17:34 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:30 Fionn wrote:On July 21 2011 17:29 wats0n wrote:
The point about contracts isn't that Puma didn't have one. It's that he didn't break one. He didn't leave for EG while still under contract.
TSL has released him so you don't know that he would not have played out the contract. In my opinion, the only reason they release him is because the benefit of releasing him and saving face outweighs the probably short remaining time on his deal.
That they would rather publicly embarrass him than let him play out his deal is low class and I have no sympathy for them. Where do you get these facts? You're just making stuff up. Huh? Are you dense? It's right in the OP that TSL released him. What did I make up? If they wanted to enforce a contract they could have. Instead they released him. That's a fact, Jack.
I'm pretty sure they released him because he wanted to be released.
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Depending on how you look at this, this can be both a good decision and a bad decision on Puma's part. He realized that he would make more money by competing in multiple foreign tournaments against lesser player rather than go up against hundreds of other good koreans. However, now we will not get to see how far he could've gone in with more practice in a Korean setting.
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EG gearing up for master's cup :D
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The only thing for certain is that PuMa will have some problems with using the ID Gentleman in Korea...
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I don't see what's wrong personally. Business is business. When a company wants someone from another company it never contacts the firm but directly that someone. It may be strange, but in the end it's business.
If Puma was in love with TSL, and if everything there would have suited him, he would have declined the offer and would say the same thing "go talk to my manager because what u do is wrong". I think Puma (even if payments was the bottom line in negotiations), was' the mature one here.
For the TSL manager to say "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" is just childish, and i think he needs to come back to the real world business. It's their fault in the end that they couldn't counter EG's offer financially and team-emotional wise.
In general a player never lives his Team if there's nothing wrong with it, so the speed with witch Puma decided his move shows me that TSL had huge issues either by itself or directly related to Puma.
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In one sense this is hurting esports. Korean teams are going to be much more fearful of sending their aces abroad now if they're just going to get poached by foreign teams.
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On July 21 2011 17:35 CellTech wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:29 BookII wrote:
I am so incredibly torn in this thread. I can see how there is so much debate.
On the one hand it certainly seems unethical or disrespectful or EG to go behind the back of TSL management and work out a deal with Puma when he was over here. Especially if he was on contract.
But on the other hand, perhaps It isn't foul play if it is what the player wants.
There's a lot of name calling but the thread hasn't really convinced me of either side yet. Although I do feel sympathy for TSL. There should be some sort of contractual obligation. It's not like the Toronto Raptors General Manager can approach Kobe Bryant in a parking garage and offer him double.
But thats because NBA rules prevent him from doing so. There is no governing body for sc2 that says this cannot happen. TSL could have put it in Puma's contract that he isn't allowed to talk to other teams or pursue other options, but it seems like they didn't.
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EPT
