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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 109

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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DayDayTV
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada20 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2161
Oh man.. First TrickSter and FruitDealer leaves to join ST... and now PuMa's gone EG.. who will take the lead for TSL now?? I feel bad for TSL.. I also hope PuMa doesn't get worse by joining EG (^ what he said). maybe TSL will merge with some other team? o_O will have to wait and see...
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2162
On July 21 2011 18:28 4rChon wrote:
Show nested quote +
"There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"


Yeah, it's called a good contract.

This really, how can you have a player without a contract and expect him to be bound to you in any way? That's not how it works.
Marke
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden279 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2163
First you get the money then you get the power and THEN you get the women.

Felt Relevent
Det är inte lätt när det är svårt
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2164
On July 21 2011 18:24 Pekkz wrote:
They truely are evil geniuses.

Pretty disgusting way to go about it indeed.


I agree they're evil geniuses, but I think how they went about it was absolutely baller.

Shine on EG, you evil bastards. Thank you for continuing to raise the stakes and set the bar for e-sports teams high.

If, as a result of EG's aggressiveness:

a) Korean teams have to raise the standard of living and pay for their players, and
b) foreign teams have to scout and bring on Korean players to remain competitive

then that's good for the sport in the long run.
Bloodash
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands1384 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2165
On July 21 2011 18:27 decaf wrote:
I don't understand what all this drama is about. If TSL is incapable of keeping their own players in their own team they should deserve losing them. Clearly something is wrong with this team. I don't think any other korean player would switch this fast.
Congratualtions to EG, hope it works out well.


I kind of agree with this statement, if a player is valuable to you, make sure you threat them like that

tough I really do hope Sc2 doesn't turn out like soccer where everyone is trading players like its a fking pokemon game
I'll bite this hand that feeds me, and take it for my own!
Cuddle
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1345 Posts
July 21 2011 09:29 GMT
#2166
On July 21 2011 18:04 Eurekastreet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 17:37 seiferoth10 wrote:
On July 21 2011 17:33 Cuddle wrote:
I don't understand how this is terrible by either Puma or EG.

I have a job, I'm contracted and have a salary. I get job offers by other companies every now and then, I talk to them about what they offer and when I find something I prefer to my current work situation (be it better pay, better work environment or what have you) I go tell my current boss that I have gotten a better offer and I resign my position. According to basic Swedish employee law (which is in my contract) I have to stay on for 3 month after quitting (to give my employee a chance to find a replacement) BUT we can negotiate this time down to 0 days if both parts agree.

It seems like this was exactly what happened in the Puma-EG case and I don't see anything wrong with it, at all. If TSL wanted to hold Puma to his contract, they could probably have and EG would have had to wait until it expired. They chose not to, in agreement with Puma. Case closed.

Oh thank god, someone with a brain. You are a rare breed.



Don't fully agree. I used to work (in Sweden) in a company that's #1 worldwide in its field (not that it matters too much but just saying it was not a 2 people thing) . At some point, one of our competitors had organisation issues while at the same time having bad financial results while we were doing good...in some attempt to fix that, they started to call "our" employees directly, offering them more money for the same job. Some people accepted, then some employees informed our management of what was happening. Management from company called management from company and that shit stopped very quickly.
Business is war they say, and yes workers have freedom of movement and so on, but you gotta keep ethics in the game too otherwise it's going nowhere. If you say those things don't matter, then what good is it to have a management ? what about team spirit ? why would any team refrain from contacting any EG player directly, bypassing scoots to have them come to a new team in no time ? Imagine scoots trusts -say- that Idra would stay in EG forever and then tomorrow he learns that he moved to - team X- for a shitload of cash, it'd be normal for the team management and the other players to be disappointed, plus it probably means less sponsor money in the short term, and so on and so on.

I don't wanna compare this to the situation with EG/Puma/TSL since I don't know what happened, my point is just, money/contract can't be everything, respect for your present team/players/collegas/friends and so on is important too. If the TSL manager is upset about it all (and Cliiiiiiiiiide too), it must be that someone did something wrong somewhere. Puma ? EG ? Tsl ? Everybody ?


I agree to some level about the moral side o the problem but again, that's why we have laws regarding how, when and where you can recruit people, to avoid any complication. Stick to right way of doing it, by the contract you have signed, and no one can or should question your choice.

Now, as for the whole team spirit issue. Yes, they probably have a bond in the team. Yes, there has probably been oral agreements. We don't know this, we can only speculate. I speculate that things are not going great at camp TSL and I support this with the fact that so many players have chosen to leave recently. When WeRRa disbanded (started with some people leaving) no one thought less of the players, once the reason was out.
In this case, the ongoings at TSL is unknown so we jump to conclusions that the players are moneygrubbing dick sellouts. Guilty until otherwise proven.

I don't presume to know anything about work ethics in Korea, so I won't comment on what's frowned upon or not, but I don't see how it makes EG the bad guys. They adhered to the US culture and made an offer, had PuMa wanted to adhere to this presumed unspoke code, he would have referred them to his coach. He didn't, which makes me believe that the ethics code isn't all that well know or that PuMa disliked his situation at TSL so much that he didn't want to let the coach have a say in the matter. He wanted out, tradition be damned.

As for the whole "Koreans will stop sending players to foreign events..." (not in response to the above post)
It's a ridiculous assumption and personally I see any such stance driving players even further into foreign teams. US/EU is where the money is at, it's where the rabid fans are and it's where the awesome events and big productions are held so that's where the serious players will be.
I also think that recent events such as GSL-MLG partnership, FXO-fOu buyout, SK partnership and more points to a drive in Koreans to get out into the world and make a name for themselves. i hardly think a Korean joining a foreign team in a (possibly) shady way will affect that.
Zaclye
Profile Joined February 2011
106 Posts
July 21 2011 09:30 GMT
#2167
i dont really care about the discussion of ethics etc etc
i only HOPE that Puma wont become a lesser player(skill wise) by joining EG
Practicing in NA -> KR server is not really ideal, or is it?
Will Puma by himself be able to elevate the skill level of the EG team?
EG proabably needs to snap up 2 more koreans.. a zerg and a protoss
a faith healer taking advantage of people that want to believe
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8096 Posts
July 21 2011 09:30 GMT
#2168
Well this is huge!
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
July 21 2011 09:30 GMT
#2169
On July 21 2011 18:12 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 18:08 ArvickHero wrote:
On July 21 2011 18:05 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:
On July 21 2011 18:02 Namu wrote:
On July 21 2011 18:01 jmbthirteen wrote:
On July 21 2011 17:58 Namu wrote:
On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west.


uh no its not, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_(sport)

Except there are no rules in place to say EG tampered...


we're comparing scenes here, obviously? I know there are no rules in place to say EG tampered, but talking in comparison, that is EXACTLY what EG did (assuming the content in OP is correct). Now assuming Puma did not have a binding contract, it's obviously legally not a problem, but morally? not so sure..


Morals??!?!?!? lol Your thinking like PUMA owes something to TSL..... He owes them nothing and EG has the right to try an make their team the best possible team they can please explain to me what they did wrong? They talked to puma when they were close? ohhhhhh noooooooo -.-.....

TSL provided Puma a place to stay and food to eat for free, along with really good practice partners, coaching and some salary (I think). I do think Puma owes something to TSL



And puma provided what was obligated off him ( the argument your saying is i fed you don't leave me.....) Puma wearing their shirt for the time he got fed is what he offered back to tsl and he did it till the end.... so your argument is invalid. And to the practice partner he was one offering his practice also and not to say this but they also lost this with sks and fruit dealer....

I guess that's your opinion that simply wearing the uniform is enough, instead of sticking with the team to help them out especially in the teamleagues and practice-wise. Seems awfully stingy to me to consider that a good enough repayment, but maybe I'm just a slight bit more generous than you.
Writerptrk
Namu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 09:31:09
July 21 2011 09:30 GMT
#2170
On July 21 2011 18:29 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 18:24 Pekkz wrote:
They truely are evil geniuses.

Pretty disgusting way to go about it indeed.


I agree they're evil geniuses, but I think how they went about it was absolutely baller.

Shine on EG, you evil bastards. Thank you for continuing to raise the stakes and set the bar for e-sports teams high.

If, as a result of EG's aggressiveness:

a) Korean teams have to raise the standard of living and pay for their players, and
b) foreign teams have to scout and bring on Korean players to remain competitive

then that's good for the sport in the long run.


c) negative impact on the korean-foreign relationship in stacraft2 (which has very evidently already happened, just look at the response in playxp)
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 21 2011 09:31 GMT
#2171
On July 21 2011 18:10 Gamegene wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 18:09 yeint wrote:
On July 21 2011 18:01 IcedBacon wrote:
On July 21 2011 17:55 yeint wrote:
On July 21 2011 17:49 IcedBacon wrote:
I like how 99% of the people posting about this have absolutely no knowledge or experience with how korean culture works. It's not the same guys. The dumb analogy with the employer? Doesn't work when it's between the West and the East. Time to go to bed.


Just because the corporate culture in Asia loves to exploit their cultural propensity for respect of one's elders doesn't make it okay. It's tantamount to defending good ol' boy white male preferentialism because it's rooted in regional cultural values.

The "employer/employee" relationship isn't an analogy, it's a fact. This isn't a martial arts movie, this is real life. People need to earn money to live, and they do so by working for organizations that pay them for it.


Ah, complete disrespect of another culture. Sorry but not everyone is greedy like in the West.


I am not disrespecting another culture. And I am not American.

I am saying that greedy profiteers exploit their employees by painting their relationship as a "respect your elders" one.

So you know how in this recession in the USA, CEOs are giving themselves and other high-ranking employees raises when there's no spare cash to be throwing around? Well there was some article about a Japanese CEO (of a huge company, FYI) who lowered his pay to either that of the average employee or even to nothing (can't remember which one it was) and had his lunch in the common cafeteria with the average employees.


Weaboo alert. While you're throwing around caricatures of how Japanese CEOs are all altruists and all western businesses are corrupt robber barons, how about you explain the massive suicide rates in these magical Japanese "business families".

Family and respect, not individualism and capitalism.


Bullshit. Your employer is not your family. Your family is your family. Just like individualism in the West is taken to an extreme at times by despicable and greedy assholes, so are Asian collectivist values exploited by greedy and power-hungry assholes.


You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Do you? It is obvious as daylight that the modern Korean society abuses the confucian social norms to take advantage of the capitalistic turn modern East Asia has gone through. The guy who said East Asia operates under "family and respect, not individualism and capitalism" obviously has no goddamned idea what he's talking about. Obviously there are good examples, but you can say that for basically anything. It is practically undeniable that East Asian collectivism has been abused by modern capitalists.
Bobble
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1493 Posts
July 21 2011 09:31 GMT
#2172
On July 21 2011 18:26 tripledoubles wrote:
TSL = Cleveland Cavaliers
PuMa = LeBron James the Quitness
EG = Miami Heat


You're Australian man, it should have been;

TSL = Geelong Cats
PuMa = Gary Ablett Jr
EG = Gold Coast Suns
Grend
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1600 Posts
July 21 2011 09:31 GMT
#2173
What here makes this into drama? I just do not understand :-/
♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞
TUski
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1258 Posts
July 21 2011 09:31 GMT
#2174
On July 21 2011 18:26 Doodsmack wrote:
What does it say about the human race that we have 107 pages of sweeping conclusions and condemnations despite having very little information about what actually happened (and only one side of the story)?


Thank you. People need to settle down and get a respectable amount of knowledge of the situation instead of jumping on the only source available.
"There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." - Day[9]
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2175
I also find this whole ethics in sports absolutely hilarious.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
seiferoth10
Profile Joined May 2010
3362 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2176
On July 21 2011 18:31 Grend wrote:
What here makes this into drama? I just do not understand :-/


The letters E and G make it an instant drama factory. If it was any other foreign team the reaction would not be as dramatic.
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2177
On July 21 2011 18:30 Namu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 18:29 Defacer wrote:
On July 21 2011 18:24 Pekkz wrote:
They truely are evil geniuses.

Pretty disgusting way to go about it indeed.


I agree they're evil geniuses, but I think how they went about it was absolutely baller.

Shine on EG, you evil bastards. Thank you for continuing to raise the stakes and set the bar for e-sports teams high.

If, as a result of EG's aggressiveness:

a) Korean teams have to raise the standard of living and pay for their players, and
b) foreign teams have to scout and bring on Korean players to remain competitive

then that's good for the sport in the long run.


c) negative impact on the korean-EG relationship in stacraft2 (which has very evidently already happened, just look at the response in playxp)


I fixed it for you. Stop acting like this one action has so many ramifications to korean-foreign relations.
NaNiwa|IdrA|HuK|iNcontroL|Jinro|NonY|Day[9]|PuMa|HerO|MMA|NesTea|NaDa|Boxer|Ryung|
Namu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2178
On July 21 2011 18:32 jmbthirteen wrote:
I also find this whole ethics in sports absolutely hilarious.


wanna explain why? why would ethics in ANYTHING be absolutely hillarious?
PlosionCornu
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy814 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2179
So EG complained for ages that Korea is on the same level as everyone else, that going there woudl've been a loss in money and time, and now they go about buying a korean player?

Color me surprised.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
July 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#2180
On July 21 2011 18:29 Namu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2011 18:27 SoniStreet wrote:
Guys, do you truly believe that TSL would have let Puma go if EG asked the coaches? Or the coaches wouldn't even let Puma know that EG is interested in him? You have to keep in mind that some managers are extremely protective of their members.


It's not about whether or not TSL would've let Puma go. That's actually not TSL's decision since apparently there was no binding contract. It's more about ethics... of letting the team know that a deal is going on.

From what I piece together it was something of a spur of the moment offer. EG decided to offer him a place on the team when he hit the Ro4 at NASL. When Puma got back to Korea, he told his coach about the offer. How else should it have gone?
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
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