EPTOn February 22 2012 04:18 KimJongChill wrote:
The last of broodwar can't be compared with the first of sc2. More time~
The last of broodwar can't be compared with the first of sc2. More time~
More Time Less Patches.
The Rhino in the Room - Page 51
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
More Time Less Patches. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:18 KimJongChill wrote: The last of broodwar can't be compared with the first of sc2. More time~ You can it give as much time as you want, a bad design will not be fixed. Only balance can and that's not the issue. And again, in this era of the game industry you don't need 10 years to achieve a perfect result, only money. And Blizzard has money. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
The main point that shows there is clearly far too high a skill ceiling in sc2 or bw for any human to achieve can only be dispelled once someone plays a perfect game, and that will never happen. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:25 Primadog wrote: This article is terrible. It is terrible because it consists entirely of conjectures and false analogies with no evidence or data to back it up. The central premise: that the skill ceiling is low, completely counters all existing tournament results everywhere. The one "evidence" you point to, that foreigners are beating koreans (on rare occasions), relies on a false pretext that all koreans necessarily are better than all foreigners. Elephant was bad, but this was infinitely worse. There are plenty of resources available if you know or bother to look to which to back your assertions, but no effort were made. Shame on you. Had it nailed in the first page. There is no evidence that top players in SC2 aren't as dominant as the top players in BW. This whole thing is conjecture. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:31 MCDayC wrote: Had it nailed in the first page. There is no evidence that top players in SC2 aren't as dominant as the top players in BW. This whole thing is conjecture. Have you watched any broodwar pro FPVOD? I have watched in_Dove play broodwar on stream when Mr.Bitter tweeted and all the Broodwar memories came back to me. He played fantastic. Just, fantastic. And than I switched to my usual streams of SC2. WOW the difference. Not in the game, but in the way it is played by a progamer. It actually looked easier. So again, If you think SC2 is as hard as Broodwar, watch some FPVODS. | ||
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Befree
695 Posts
Is this meant to be serious? There are many claims and the evidence behind them usually seems to be stated as a joke (Ex: "Watch them play. There, now that we dispelled that myth, let me elaborate on my point." "12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners?). I think you need to explain your point more clearly on why. Merely stating that mechanics in SC2 are "easier" is not a very compelling argument. You could create a tournament based around micro'ing select groups of like 20 or 30 units involving 0 macro mechanics and it is still going to competitive and have an infinite skill ceiling for a human player. I'm confused as to how a simplification of macro mechanics could so drastically change the competitive nature of the game. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
"I don't think SC2 will be anything like BW, where the "bonjwas" of the game took turns controlling the scene before passing the torch to the next juggernaut." BW culture is based around this "super hero" notion.... or Bonjwa as you call it. Yet, no one ever discusses the match fixing incident in regards to that? Am I completely off base for being suspicious of such orderly progression of overwhelming champions, when there is a history of matching fixing in the sport? I just base this off two facts, but perhaps there are more that I am missing. 1. BW loves it hero's and its hero's drive the popularity of the sport. 2. At least 1 of those former hero's was found to be fixing matches. source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125601 Does anyone think the people they caught were the only ones doing it? | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:43 dsousa wrote: From the OP "I don't think SC2 will be anything like BW, where the "bonjwas" of the game took turns controlling the scene before passing the torch to the next juggernaut." BW culture is based around this "super hero" notion.... or Bonjwa as you call it. Yet, no one ever discusses the match fixing incident in regards to that? Am I completely off base for being suspicious of such orderly progression of overwhelming champions, when there is a history of matching fixing in the sport? I just base this off two facts, but perhaps there are more that I am missing. 1. BW loves it hero's and its hero's drive the popularity of the sport. 2. At least 1 of those former hero's was found to be fixing matches. source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125601 Does anyone think the people they caught were the only ones doing it? Wow, bw vs sc2 sure brings the worst ideas out of people, but this post takes the cake oO | ||
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jackdaniels
29 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:43 dsousa wrote: From the OP "I don't think SC2 will be anything like BW, where the "bonjwas" of the game took turns controlling the scene before passing the torch to the next juggernaut." BW culture is based around this "super hero" notion.... or Bonjwa as you call it. Yet, no one ever discusses the match fixing incident in regards to that? Am I completely off base for being suspicious of such orderly progression of overwhelming champions, when there is a history of matching fixing in the sport? I just base this off two facts, but perhaps there are more that I am missing. 1. BW loves it hero's and its hero's drive the popularity of the sport. 2. At least 1 of those former hero's was found to be fixing matches. source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125601 Does anyone think the people they caught were the only ones doing it? No. Because Savior will actually loose on purpose to get the money, when he was the huge favorite. That is how it works. You can't have bonjwas winning and getting money from gambling, the rates would be too low for the favorite, but if the underdog with almost zero chances wins, then a lot of people lost their money. So no. Your whole premise is wrong! | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:43 dsousa wrote: From the OP "I don't think SC2 will be anything like BW, where the "bonjwas" of the game took turns controlling the scene before passing the torch to the next juggernaut." BW culture is based around this "super hero" notion.... or Bonjwa as you call it. Yet, no one ever discusses the match fixing incident in regards to that? Am I completely off base for being suspicious of such orderly progression of overwhelming champions, when there is a history of matching fixing in the sport? I just base this off two facts, but perhaps there are more that I am missing. 1. BW loves it hero's and its hero's drive the popularity of the sport. 2. At least 1 of those former hero's was found to be fixing matches. source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125601 Does anyone think the people they caught were the only ones doing it? There probably are players that got away untouched, but I think it was not a systemic problem. Besides, can you seriously look at a guy like Boxer, Nada, or July and say that they are just cheaters? No, they were heroes because they not only had skill, but also had the drive to be the best, not because there was organized cheating and match fixing. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
It also depends hugely on the tounaments and the teams. With a tournament scene dominated by invites based on popularity (that may no longer be the case in sc2 anymore) and teams valueing personalities of their players comparable to their skill in the game, the scene becomes much less competitive than otherwise and hence the development of the game will slow down. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:21 ceaRshaf wrote: You can it give as much time as you want, a bad design will not be fixed. Only balance can and that's not the issue. And again, in this era of the game industry you don't need 10 years to achieve a perfect result, only money. And Blizzard has money. Yes you're absolutely right. Money creates balance, not time. Maybe if we all pay progamers more they'll figure out how to play perfectly faster. /sarcasm | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On February 22 2012 05:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Yes you're absolutely right. Money creates balance, not time. Maybe if we all pay progamers more they'll figure out how to play perfectly faster. /sarcasm Well, you'll have more competition, and that is exactly what competition can be predicted to produce. Better play. His point is more though that when Boxer invented his drop play all those years ago, that was the age of discovery. People have the idea of drop play already in SC2 thanks to Boxer. These things carry over and you can thank mostly BW for paving the way. Of course there are going to be new tricks specific to SC2 that people will figure out but the situation for SC2 now is not the same as it was with BW ten years ago. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On February 22 2012 05:24 Squeegy wrote: Well, you'll have more competition, and that is exactly what competition can be predicted to produce. Better play. His point is more though that when Boxer invented his drop play all those years ago, that was the age of discovery. People have the idea of drop play already in SC2 thanks to Boxer. These things carry over and you can thank mostly BW for paving the way. Of course there are going to be new tricks specific to SC2 that people will figure out but the situation for SC2 now is not the same as it was with BW ten years ago. Yes, it takes a genius to figure out to use dropships for drops. When Seal Team 6 took out Osama Bin Laden, I'm sure they got the idea from Boxer's inventive play. | ||
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nimbus99
Canada194 Posts
i think that sc2 will eventually have a similar king of the game feel. Its just that sc2 seems go have more risky plays that end up defeating players that are better. SC BW was developed until it was almost always skill vs skill | ||
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AlexanderDebois
Kyrgyzstan38 Posts
If you want to see this in action simply watch any pro level games. There is not a single one where one player micros and macros to perfection. Perhaps, if Flash or JD switched over they would against the current level of competition but facing each other or others of similar skill I do not think you would see absolute perfect execution. | ||
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FlyingDike
United States221 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Case in point, the complaints about SC2 having a too-low skill ceiling have seemed to die down, because there is a lot more multi-tasking required to excel today than even six months ago. Complaints about marauders and immortals being the worst designed units ever have died down as those two units have found somewhat stable, yet not-dominant roles in specific match-ups. | ||
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