EPTIs this really the mindset of BW? Please say it isn't.
The Rhino in the Room - Page 45
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
Is this really the mindset of BW? Please say it isn't. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
Which means that not only is SC2 micro more visual, it's also more necessary. Retort? | ||
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Royalcommand
Korea (South)189 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:13 lorkac wrote: That's right Elefanto. The quality of the micro is purely subjective and hence one cannot say that one is more impressive than the other. Which means that BW micro is not better than SC2 micro. But since sc2 is more punishing of mistakes than BW is, micro is more important in SC2. Which means that not only is SC2 micro more visual, it's also more necessary. Retort? well... thats where youre wrong. BW micro IS more impressive than sc2 micro because its inherent "lacking" UI makes micro more mechanically difficult, and thus more impressive to watch. For example, a person doing mass storm is not as impressive as say a person doing the same thing in bw because its extremely difficult to pull off, which causes the viewer to be left impressed and in awe while sc2's counterpart is average. You cant state micro as being more important in sc2 than bw because its more "punishing", whatever that means. Give us an example please. Micro is both equally important in both games, and saying its more important in sc2 is a ridiculous notion because BW games are extremely micro intensive. Also, what do you mean by sc2 micro being more "visual"? half the time its a clusterfuck of units in a 1a syndrome. Either way its subjective right? | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
players still get supply blocked. Players still build up a trust fund. Not all players stutterstep their units (even melée units stutter step in sc2), not all players multitask efficiently. People still forge to build workers. People still forget to build guys. Basic mechanics haven't even been reached yet let alone this hypothetical "skill ceiling." until near perfect play can be achieved, talking about skill ceilings is useless. There is no baseline to act as the skill floor let alone to begin discussing the skill ceiling. Ad hominem attacks does not refute his statement that the OP's post was baseless and purely an attack on a community he disrespects. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
like I said earlier. For BW micro to seem impressive, you need to tell yourself that it's diffiult to do. What spectators want are psi storm clouds. Both BW and SC2 make psi storm clouds. BW elites say their psi storm cloud is better because it requires more clicking Spectators don't care either or. Proof? More people watch SC2 on TL than they do BW. And from what's going on globally, it's obvious this is true in a lot of other countries as well. Why? Because spectators want psi clouds and blood on the ground. They want explosions and armies moving across the map. Not lurkers burrowing and unborrowing as 1 tank shoots it. As for the punishing aspect. The dps amd game momentum of sc2 are both higher than they are in BW. This means units die faster and the amount of time to correct mistakes is smaller. While you can stall to your hearts content in BW, SC2 punishes the player who misteps and moves out without proper scouting. Who misclicks and misses an emp. Which means two "deathballs" meet i the middle and it's not certain which will win because it's all about the set up and the execution. And that's when the two players make unit blobs. Players have now started splitting their armies, attacking from 3-4 places at once and dps and momentum has not slowed down. Marines move in tighter and larger clumps meaning accidentally getting in range of them destroys your army faster than in BW. The clumping of units causes AoE to be even more effective than it is in BW. This means keeping units alive and effective comes with perfect execution and complete mare awareness. Otherwise they die. | ||
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:37 lorkac wrote: @elefanto like I said earlier. For BW micro to seem impressive, you need to tell yourself that it's diffiult to do. What spectators want are psi storm clouds. Both BW and SC2 make psi storm clouds. BW elites say their psi storm cloud is better because it requires more clicking Spectators don't care either or. Proof? More people watch SC2 on TL than they do BW. And from what's going on globally, it's obvious this is true in a lot of other countries as well. Why? Because spectators want psi clouds and blood on the ground. They want explosions and armies moving across the map. Not lurkers burrowing and unborrowing as 1 tank shoots it. As for the punishing aspect. The dps amd game momentum of sc2 are both higher than they are in BW. This means units die faster and the amount of time to correct mistakes is smaller. While you can stall to your hearts content in BW, SC2 punishes the player who misteps and moves out without proper scouting. Who misclicks and misses an emp. Which means two "deathballs" meet i the middle and it's not certain which will win because it's all about the set up and the execution. And that's when the two players make unit blobs. Players have now started splitting their armies, attacking from 3-4 places at once and dps and momentum has not slowed down. Marines move in tighter and larger clumps meaning accidentally getting in range of them destroys your army faster than in BW. The clumping of units causes AoE to be even more effective than it is in BW. This means keeping units alive and effective comes with perfect execution and complete mare awareness. Otherwise they die. You don't think units die fast enough in Brood War? :x Have you seen hydras/goons go into a tank line accidentally? Marines walk over stop-lurkers? I guess the difference is that units in BW that kill insanely fast take a set up time to use, where as units in SC2 that kill insanely fast just do it instantly... Anyway, you are just spouting opinions. And the facts that you are spouting aren't in correct context. For example, there are reasons why more people watch SC2 than BW. First of all, it is a new game that was hyped by its predecessor in a time period where gaming/being a nerd is a less negative part of the worlds culture. It is more socially acceptable to be a gamer. More people are playing games because of this, and this makes more people play SC2 and more people watch SC2 and makes more sponsors put money into it. It doesn't necessarily make SC2 better than BW. CoD6 or w/e CoD we're on now is no doubt more popular publically than CoD1 was. In fact people curse CoD for ruining competitive FPS. What people often don't mention is that CoD1 was an incredibly competitive game that was very popular in CPL/CAL/CEVO. Even CoD2 was to some extent. Yet CoD6 is no doubt more popular. Is CoD6 a better game? Definitely not competitively, it is such an easy game in retrospect to old FPS games. Quake, PK, CS, CoD1, etc. The point is that games that are popular definitely doesn't mean its good for competition. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:24 Royalcommand wrote: well... thats where youre wrong. BW micro IS more impressive than sc2 micro because its inherent "lacking" UI makes micro more mechanically difficult, and thus more impressive to watch. For example, a person doing mass storm is not as impressive as say a person doing the same thing in bw because its extremely difficult to pull off, which causes the viewer to be left impressed and in awe while sc2's counterpart is average. You cant state micro as being more important in sc2 than bw because its more "punishing", whatever that means. Give us an example please. Micro is both equally important in both games, and saying its more important in sc2 is a ridiculous notion because BW games are extremely micro intensive. Also, what do you mean by sc2 micro being more "visual"? half the time its a clusterfuck of units in a 1a syndrome. Either way its subjective right? The bolded part is where you're not necessarily right. Some people would agree with you, some people would disagree with you. As you say at the end, it's subjective. Let's take WC3, for instance. WC3 micro is fucking amazing and much more intense than the micro you get in SC2 (don't argue with me here), but I won't say it's very impressive for people to watch, even if you understand the game. I mean, I'm a huge WC3 fanboy (I've played the game for eight years), but even I will say that seeing blob-on-blob warfare in SC2 is, uhhhh, more visually appealing. It's just shinier. I mean, I can appreciate the WC3 micro I see because I've played the game for eight years and know how amazing it is, but ... if you gave me an option of watching Moon vs. Grubby in WC3 or something as one-sided as NesTea vs. InCa, I'd ... okay, I'd probably choose to watch Moon vs. Grubby out of pure fanboyism, but I'd enjoy, on a more visceral level, watching NesTea stomp InCa into the ground, even if there is nothing particularly extraordinary about seeing InCa get beat by a Zerg.  Hope that makes sense. WC3 is amazing but hard to appreciate if you aren't acquainted with the game very well. The same holds true for SCBW (though to a lesser extent, I think). Meanwhile, SC2 is just fucking shiny and smooth to look at. Does that make it a better game? Not necessarily. But saying that "SCBW's UI is horrible, therefore the micro is more impressive to watch" isn't necessarily true, because by that reasoning, any micro at all in WC2 (lolz) would be amazing to watch, but hey, we all know how fun WC2 is for a spectator. | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
As for quality, you said so yourself that it's hard to get units to deal a lot of damage in BW. That's what I was talking about when I said that SC2 is more punishing. You don't have the safety of only being scared of only certain units at certain times. And yes. Sponsors love the new stuff because audiences like the new stuff. Because to them it isn't impressive that you can get a dragoon to go down a ramp. It's only impressive to the people who practice it a lot and only because of the comparative experience. As I said, you have to tell yourself it's hard to do otherwise watching a lurker burrow is boring. As for actual gameplay, the lack of need to do elaborate setups just to get tanks to fire means that the game play experience mentally is not "patrol hotkey when using vultures, stop command when using dragoons" but is instead "I need tanks there while dropping there" what makes the player feel good is not "THE REAVER DIDNT MISS" and is instead "my marines split perfectly!" so even the experience of the gameplay is fundamentally different. Once again. Something being harder does not mean it's better. Otherwise you'd unplug your keyboard and enjoy BW even more than you enjoy it now. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:37 lorkac wrote: @elefanto like I said earlier. For BW micro to seem impressive, you need to tell yourself that it's diffiult to do. What spectators want are psi storm clouds. Both BW and SC2 make psi storm clouds. BW elites say their psi storm cloud is better because it requires more clicking Spectators don't care either or. Proof? More people watch SC2 on TL than they do BW. And from what's going on globally, it's obvious this is true in a lot of other countries as well. Why? Because spectators want psi clouds and blood on the ground. They want explosions and armies moving across the map. Not lurkers burrowing and unborrowing as 1 tank shoots it. Haha, oh really? When's last time SC2 has ever had a live audience of 10k+ people? I guess thousands of people that attended Boxer vs Oov OSL finals in '04 were bored out of their minds from the "click and send workers to mine-fest" that is SC1. Everyone knows foreign BW is dead. You don't have to bring up something so nonsensical like "SC2 vs BW forum and stream activity on Teamliquid," because it doesn't mean anything. Again, tell me why this site exists and where all the hype for SC2 came from? As for my other comment, Destiny spends most of the time of the playing NA ladder (you know, where all the greatest players gather such as Combatex and Deezer). Grinding 8 hours against THAT competition shouldn't make you as good as someone who plays efficiently against the best of the best. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:13 Daozzt wrote: Haha, oh really? When's last time SC2 has ever had a live audience of 10k+ people? I guess thousands of people that attended Boxer vs Oov OSL finals in '04 were bored out of their minds from the "click and send workers to mine-fest" that is SC1. Everyone knows foreign BW is dead. You don't have to bring up something so nonsensical like "SC2 vs BW forum and stream activity on Teamliquid," because it doesn't mean anything. Again, tell me why this site exists and where all the hype for SC2 came from? As for my other comment, Destiny spends most of the time of the playing NA ladder (you know, where all the greatest players gather such as Combatex and Deezer). Grinding 8 hours against THAT competition shouldn't make you as good as someone who plays efficiently against the best of the best. haha orly XD!? when's the last time an SC2 crowd had nearly a decade to build up its fanbase? -_- and to answer your question, MLG dallas was prob near 10k, and Anaheim is in socal so if texas can pull in those numbers, i'd wait and see how LA does. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:13 Daozzt wrote: Haha, oh really? When's last time SC2 has ever had a live audience of 10k+ people? I guess thousands of people that attended Boxer vs Oov OSL finals in '04 were bored out of their minds from the "click and send workers to mine-fest" that is SC1. Everyone knows foreign BW is dead. You don't have to bring up something so nonsensical like "SC2 vs BW forum and stream activity on Teamliquid," because it doesn't mean anything. Again, tell me why this site exists and where all the hype for SC2 came from? As for my other comment, Destiny spends most of the time of the playing NA ladder (you know, where all the greatest players gather such as Combatex and Deezer). Grinding 8 hours against THAT competition shouldn't make you as good as someone who plays efficiently against the best of the best. Your absolutely right the tens of thousands of people who watch even average level pro's every day via this website means absolutely nothing. I understand that some BW watchers have to hate sc2, but why do they have to also insult the entire community and tell them "deal with it"? People who are "pro" sc2, don't seem to feel the need to shit all over BW every time they post, maybe because they aren't insecure about their passion? just let it be.. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:26 Eleaven wrote: Your absolutely right the tens of thousands of people who watch even average level pro's every day via this website means absolutely nothing. I understand that some BW watchers have to hate sc2, but why do they have to also insult the entire community and tell them "deal with it"? People who are "pro" sc2, don't seem to feel the need to shit all over BW every time they post, maybe because they aren't insecure about their passion? just let it be.. I don't think my post was aggressive in any way. I don't "hate" on SC2, since I actually play the game and enjoy it from time to time. I was just responding to the to guy saying "heh, SC2> BW in excitement. Want proof? 10k watching sc2, 100 watching BW kekekekekekek". It's not about telling people to deal with it. It's just making general, true statements that cause a shit storm and pages of arguing when they shouldn't in the first place. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 16 2011 02:27 Requizen wrote: Oh god yes. I don't really see why not, either. Maybe not in the exact same way as BW, but since you can get more units in one selection, what's to stop people from splitting their army in half and controlling each one equally well in two different positions? Burrow Roach micro works kinda similarly, I'd like to see more with them. People controlling Broodlings after the Broodlord shoots them is kinda cool. Baneling drops are kinda like limited Reaver drops, but cooler cuz it's Zerg Little micro wars like Terran trying to draw Lings into Tank fire and Zerg trying to bait Marines into Banelings are comprable to BW as it is, just a bit easier to control. I think there is room in Protoss's arsenal for a lot of stuff as well, as we've seen with Phoenix play from MC. I'm sure people will come up with new and interesting micro tactics as time goes on.Caster units already require a decent amount of micro, especially in caster v caster fights (Snipe/EMP vs Feedback vs NP/FG). If you watched Day9's PvT daily, there was a cool Ghost timing push that the Terran did for massive, punishing damage that I can see being used more. QXC is already known for his crazy Ghost plays. I think you are missing the point  Did you know in BroodWar you could use just drone micro to defend a proxy 2 gate? This has nothing to do with splitting drones up and using them seperately, its a specific technique. - First of all you need sim city. - You need to place a creep colony above your hatchery - Then you need to clump all your drones by clicking a mineral patch to make it into one super drone, but also bait the zealots towards your gas - Then you need to do a gas run, by getting your super drone to run to the gas, because of your creep colony, your drones will run in a line instead of spread out - Then when the zealots try to attack your drones, the drones start spazzing out making the zealot unable to attack - You need to keep controlling your drones like that so some of your drones are attacking the zealots, while others are bugging the zealots out - When your lings pop, you now don't need to use them to defend, you can use them to immediately take out the undefended protoss base A lot of SC2 players look at stutter-step or controlling units individually and go, "that's micro". In BW it goes so much deeper than that. This is what players mean by "every unit can be microed". In BW stutter-step, splitting and multitasking units to keep them alive was really considered the most basic form of micro, in SC2 its almost like its the pinnacle. This is where the notion of skill ceiling comes from. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if things like Void Ray Phazing or the Viking Flower was kept, unfortunately Blizzard just wants to patch out everything that improves micro. So evolutions in micro have been completely halted.  | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On July 16 2011 13:47 sluggaslamoo wrote: I think you are missing the point Did you know in BroodWar you could use just drone micro to defend a proxy 2 gate? This has nothing to do with splitting drones up and using them seperately, its a specific technique. - First of all you need sim city. - You need to place a creep colony above your hatchery - Then you need to clump all your drones by clicking a mineral patch to make it into one super drone, but also bait the zealots towards your gas - Then you need to do a gas run, by getting your super drone to run to the gas, because of your creep colony, your drones will run in a line instead of spread out - Then when the zealots try to attack your drones, the drones start spazzing out making the zealot unable to attack - You need to keep controlling your drones like that so some of your drones are attacking the zealots, while others are bugging the zealots out - When your lings pop, you now don't need to use them to defend, you can use them to immediately take out the undefended protoss base A lot of SC2 players look at stutter-step or controlling units individually and go, "that's micro". In BW it goes so much deeper than that. This is what players mean by "every unit can be microed". In BW stutter-step, splitting and multitasking units to keep them alive was really considered the most basic form of micro, in SC2 its almost like its the pinnacle. This is where the notion of skill ceiling comes from. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if things like Void Ray Phazing or the Viking Flower was kept, unfortunately Blizzard just wants to patch out everything that improves micro. So evolutions in micro have been completely halted. If you consider where people are at right now the "skill ceiling", then you're way off. People made the same claim months ago, and the game changed and people's micro got better. Before that, people claimed SC2 had been figured out in the first few months when the first real cheeses were discovered, but then other people learned to hold them off and play better. Saying that anyone is at the top possible tier of skill right now is just absurd. Hell, BW's skill ceiling hasn't been reached and that's 10+ years old. When are people going to start microing individual units and pulling crazy Flash-style games? I don't know. Eventually. Again, SC2 is only *one year old* if you count beta, not even a year if you don't. It's silly to say "oh, the game is so easy that no one can be possibly better than they are right now". It's... almost mind hurtingly ignorant. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:13 Daozzt wrote: Haha, oh really? When's last time SC2 has ever had a live audience of 10k+ people? NASL finals had over 80,000 live stream viewers, which is starting to be considered standard. In terms of physical people physically present, MLG Columbus at over 2000 people physically there (and I myself will be part of the crowd at MLG Providence!). As for my other comment, Destiny spends most of the time of the playing NA ladder (you know, where all the greatest players gather such as Combatex and Deezer). Grinding 8 hours against THAT competition shouldn't make you as good as someone who plays efficiently against the best of the best. And...it doesn't? Destiny beat Bomber in a series exactly once. While he's been improving (due to off-stream practice, I think), he's yet to actually show any results. Hey, look at Brood War. Flash is a bonjwa. He is indisputably the best BW player right now. He loses 1 out of 4 TvTs, and 30% of his TvZs and TvPs. He's recently played Shuttle 3 times. Flash should not lose to...anyone, but certainly not Shuttle, who's not even 50% vT. Had the last three Shuttle/Flash games been a single Bo3, Shuttle would've eliminated Flash from this hypothetical tournament. It's considered bonjwa level that Flash wins 71% of his games, but that means he loses 29% of the time, and sometimes to players he really shouldn't. Sometimes the worse player wins. That's why we have series instead of Bo1 all the time. Sometimes the worse player wins two games in a series. Happens. But the best players tend to stay near the top. Let's look at some examples of players who've had continued stays at the top. MC + Show Spoiler + NASL Season 1: Silver Homestory Cup: Bronze. Lost to Huk Starswar Killer 6: Gold MLG Columbus: Bronze. Lost to Losira Copenhagen Games Spring 2011: Gold 2011 DreamHack Stockholm Invitational: Gold 2011 LG Cinema 3D World Championship Seoul: Bronze. Lost to MarineKing 2011 GSL March: Gold 2010 Kaspersky New Year's StarCraft II Invitational: Silver. Lost to TOP 2010 Danawa Ygosu Invitational: Gold 2010 GSL Open 3: Gold 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft II League January: Ro16. Lost in a group to Marine King and a then-dominant Jinro 2011 GSL May: Knocked out in the Ro32, losing twice to Polt He has made it to the Ro8 of the current GSL, and is expected to steamroll HongUn. So, since winning a GSL, there has been exactly one (1) tournament where MC didn't do well, losing to Polt who was on an upswing. If he's ever been knocked out of a tournament by a player who wasn't Code S, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. He has won or placed in 11 major tournaments in less that a year. He could start a medal-a-month club! | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:06 zawk9 wrote: I don't understand why the OP made people so angry.. Its basically just saying that in his opinion the skill floor to be a SC2 pro is lower than in BW and people should learn to embrace this difference or just not watch. Nothing really controversial or elitist about that opinion.. and what is the point in creating a thread in sc2 section saying the skill ceiling is lower than bw? you know people in sc2 already watch and love sc2? all i read is angry, hurt bw fans that for some reason feel the need to take a stab at sc2 because bw isnt the latest and greatest anymore. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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ak1knight
United States313 Posts
On July 16 2011 15:39 Ribbon wrote: NASL finals had over 80,000 live stream viewers, which is starting to be considered standard. In terms of physical people physically present, MLG Columbus at over 2000 people physically there (and I myself will be part of the crowd at MLG Providence!). And...it doesn't? Destiny beat Bomber in a series exactly once. While he's been improving (due to off-stream practice, I think), he's yet to actually show any results. Hey, look at Brood War. Flash is a bonjwa. He is indisputably the best BW player right now. He loses 1 out of 4 TvTs, and 30% of his TvZs and TvPs. He's recently played Shuttle 3 times. Flash should not lose to...anyone, but certainly not Shuttle, who's not even 50% vT. Had the last three Shuttle/Flash games been a single Bo3, Shuttle would've eliminated Flash from this hypothetical tournament. It's considered bonjwa level that Flash wins 71% of his games, but that means he loses 29% of the time, and sometimes to players he really shouldn't. Sometimes the worse player wins. That's why we have series instead of Bo1 all the time. Sometimes the worse player wins two games in a series. Happens. But the best players tend to stay near the top. Let's look at some examples of players who've had continued stays at the top. MC + Show Spoiler + NASL Season 1: Silver Homestory Cup: Bronze. Lost to Huk Starswar Killer 6: Gold MLG Columbus: Bronze. Lost to Losira Copenhagen Games Spring 2011: Gold 2011 DreamHack Stockholm Invitational: Gold 2011 LG Cinema 3D World Championship Seoul: Bronze. Lost to MarineKing 2011 GSL March: Gold 2010 Kaspersky New Year's StarCraft II Invitational: Silver. Lost to TOP 2010 Danawa Ygosu Invitational: Gold 2010 GSL Open 3: Gold 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft II League January: Ro16. Lost in a group to Marine King and a then-dominant Jinro 2011 GSL May: Knocked out in the Ro32, losing twice to Polt He has made it to the Ro8 of the current GSL, and is expected to steamroll HongUn. So, since winning a GSL, there has been exactly one (1) tournament where MC didn't do well, losing to Polt who was on an upswing. If he's ever been knocked out of a tournament by a player who wasn't Code S, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. He has won or placed in 11 major tournaments in less that a year. He could start a medal-a-month club! If Flash played in foreign BW tournaments he would have a MUCH better than 70% win rate XD. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On July 14 2011 11:12 sluggaslamoo wrote: But NaDa is a mechanical player, so is July, so is MVP. Flash is not a mechanical player at all, he wins on mind games and strategy. what LOL WHAT Flash is not a mechanical player at all? So his macro sucks? you can have the best strategy in the world but if you are sitting at 3k minerals with your tanks unsieged in the wrong location (See: bad mechanics) you will still lose. | ||
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