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On July 16 2011 16:41 Eknoid4 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 11:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 14 2011 09:54 SichuanPanda wrote:I think that pro SC2 players are just trying to play the game too much like BW, they keep trying to win in a mechanically-focused manner, instead of focusing on unique strategies, tricky/fancy micro, and unique/sudden unit combos. I'm not saying I don't agree that SC2 is easier to play, but I think that a similarly large gap in skill as to BW good be achieved if players would just break out of the mold of mechanics>all (and I know after up to 12 years for some its hard to do). For example ( Warning GSL July Byun vs NaDa Ro16 Spoiler Warning) + Show Spoiler +In the game of NaDa vs Byun, NaDa the likely undisputed stronger player in terms recognition, expected performance, and micro/macro ability. Byun was able to take Game 2 in particular largely due to the fact that the game allows both Byun and NaDa to have similar macro. or identical macro, and if NaDa mis-controls his skill-gap above Byun is gone. This is exactly what happened. Now NaDa did show us some great Banshee/Viking use to attempt to clear Byun's tank lines, but he continued to try to out-play him with mechanics. Had NaDa got some Seeker Missile Ravens, now that would have made things very interesting, could have surprised Byun and pulled out a win. But NaDa is a mechanical player, so is July, so is MVP. Flash is not a mechanical player at all, he wins on mind games and strategy. what LOL WHAT Flash is not a mechanical player at all? So his macro sucks? you can have the best strategy in the world but if you are sitting at 3k minerals with your tanks unsieged in the wrong location (See: bad mechanics) you will still lose.
Flash has slightly bad mechanics relative to other progamers. Its the truth.
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On July 16 2011 09:29 lorkac wrote:
@elefanto
Phoenix harass
I Mean people tell u already how much crpa u talk :D but this. u mean the hard phoenix "i use move command let them fly aroudn and they still attack everything for whatever reason?" :D
And i feel 2 see how flash has worse mechanics but ok guys )
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On July 16 2011 16:55 rasers wrote:I Mean people tell u already how much crpa u talk :D but this. u mean the hard phoenix "i use move command let them fly aroudn and they still attack everything for whatever reason?" :D And i feel 2 see how flash has worse mechanics but ok guys )
I'm sorry, but what? Was... was there supposed to be a sentence there? Grammar is rolling in its grave.
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On July 16 2011 15:55 lorkac wrote:
I love how you guys consider bugging out the ai "good" micro and not exploiting a bug.
True, glitching units to get other units stuck is a bug but it's also what is considered good micro.
Sluggaslamoo detailed how much goes on for something so seemingly easy. Even if you can not appreciate how hard it is to do, watching that happen without any understanding of the game is still impressive. Games aren't watched in isolation and when the audience sees something out of the ordinary (e.g. Jaedong's "glitch" drone micro) it's exciting for them because they don't see it happen everytime, even if the same situation arises.
On a side note, I'm happy for this thread to continue on forever if it means I never have to see a "Wow you guys still play BW?", "SC2 OWNSSSSS BW" or "Wow the graphics hurts my eyes" in the stream chat whenever a BW event is on.
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On July 16 2011 18:23 fold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 15:55 lorkac wrote:
I love how you guys consider bugging out the ai "good" micro and not exploiting a bug. True, glitching units to get other units stuck is a bug but it's also what is considered good micro. Sluggaslamoo detailed how much goes on for something so seemingly easy. Even if you can not appreciate how hard it is to do, watching that happen without any understanding of the game is still impressive. Games aren't watched in isolation and when the audience sees something out of the ordinary (e.g. Jaedong's "glitch" drone micro) it's exciting for them because they don't see it happen everytime, even if the same situation arises. On a side note, I'm happy for this thread to continue on forever if it means I never have to see a "Wow you guys still play BW?", "SC2 OWNSSSSS BW" or "Wow the graphics hurts my eyes" in the stream chat whenever a BW event is on.
It's equally annoying having these threads constantly on the SC2 part of the forum. Some criticism is good but alot of it comes from players so deeply rooted into BW they will never never like SC2 regardless if it's good or bad.
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On July 16 2011 18:30 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 18:23 fold wrote:On July 16 2011 15:55 lorkac wrote:
I love how you guys consider bugging out the ai "good" micro and not exploiting a bug. True, glitching units to get other units stuck is a bug but it's also what is considered good micro. Sluggaslamoo detailed how much goes on for something so seemingly easy. Even if you can not appreciate how hard it is to do, watching that happen without any understanding of the game is still impressive. Games aren't watched in isolation and when the audience sees something out of the ordinary (e.g. Jaedong's "glitch" drone micro) it's exciting for them because they don't see it happen everytime, even if the same situation arises. On a side note, I'm happy for this thread to continue on forever if it means I never have to see a "Wow you guys still play BW?", "SC2 OWNSSSSS BW" or "Wow the graphics hurts my eyes" in the stream chat whenever a BW event is on. It's equally annoying having these threads constantly on the SC2 part of the forum. Some criticism is good but alot of it comes from players so deeply rooted into BW they will never never like SC2 regardless if it's good or bad.
Well at least it's on the forums, you can choose whether you want to read the thread or not. It's not so much fun during Proleague when I spend more time moderating chat than watching the game. You have to moderate the chat quickly or it goes to shit because that magic word "SC2" (which for some reason can't be banned on justin tv chat) sparks downhill conservations like no other, regardless of whether it's SC2 hate or BW hate. Both types are equally bad.
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On July 16 2011 18:36 fold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 18:30 karpo wrote:On July 16 2011 18:23 fold wrote:On July 16 2011 15:55 lorkac wrote:
I love how you guys consider bugging out the ai "good" micro and not exploiting a bug. True, glitching units to get other units stuck is a bug but it's also what is considered good micro. Sluggaslamoo detailed how much goes on for something so seemingly easy. Even if you can not appreciate how hard it is to do, watching that happen without any understanding of the game is still impressive. Games aren't watched in isolation and when the audience sees something out of the ordinary (e.g. Jaedong's "glitch" drone micro) it's exciting for them because they don't see it happen everytime, even if the same situation arises. On a side note, I'm happy for this thread to continue on forever if it means I never have to see a "Wow you guys still play BW?", "SC2 OWNSSSSS BW" or "Wow the graphics hurts my eyes" in the stream chat whenever a BW event is on. It's equally annoying having these threads constantly on the SC2 part of the forum. Some criticism is good but alot of it comes from players so deeply rooted into BW they will never never like SC2 regardless if it's good or bad. Well at least it's on the forums, you can choose whether you want to read the thread or not. It's not so much fun during Proleague when I spend more time moderating chat than watching the game. You have to moderate the chat quickly or it goes to shit because that magic word "SC2" (which for some reason can't be banned on justin tv chat) sparks downhill conservations like no other, regardless of whether it's SC2 hate or BW hate. Both types are equally bad.
I can testify to this; there's a LOT of BW bashing in BW streams from SC2 trolls I see when I'm watching streams and talking about games. Conversely, when there is discussion relating to BW in an SC2 thread, there's always an element of nostalgia (like how Zs in SC2 don't have sustained area denial/map control units; T pure mech isn't a good option most of the time in games or Ps relative lack of viable harassment options).
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On July 16 2011 15:39 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 11:06 zawk9 wrote:
I don't understand why the OP made people so angry.. Its basically just saying that in his opinion the skill floor to be a SC2 pro is lower than in BW and people should learn to embrace this difference or just not watch. Nothing really controversial or elitist about that opinion.. and what is the point in creating a thread in sc2 section saying the skill ceiling is lower than bw? you know people in sc2 already watch and love sc2?
He's making the point that these differences in the aren't necessarily a bad thing (for either game)! So what if the skill floor has changed? He wants you to enjoy the games for what they are and embrace the differences. I don't know about the format or if there was much of a point in writing the article, but its not exactly a "lolol sc2 is bad no mbs" piece either.
I watch and like SC2 myself (I think most of the times I post on this site are in SC2 LR threads.. lol!), but some of the uninformed nonsense being spewed by particular people in this thread is pretty grating to anyone who likes both games for what they are. I think I've posted about particular things I prefer in BW before or particular units, etc. that I don't like, but at the end of the day I'm willing to accept the game for what it is and accept that if I didn't like it I wouldn't watch it.
all i read is angry, hurt bw fans that for some reason feel the need to take a stab at sc2 because bw isnt the latest and greatest anymore.
Massive generalizations, even when true about certain particularly aggravating posts, don't really get us anywhere (its not like when Brood War was at its peak it still had 'good graphics' by gaming industry standards either). Plenty of posters on both sides make a lot of angry posts and say a lot of oddly aggressive or ignorant things about the other game. Perhaps some of the posts from the 'brood war camp' fit your particular description, but I've read some very reasonable and well thought out posts on both sides of the discussion before.
Unfortunately there's not much point in making a reasonable post in a horse that's been bludgeoned so hard on this forum. People have too much personal attachment to the game for that (and good for them!). Its more or less like this with every sequel a popular ground-breaking has produced.. It follows that it'd be more pronounced with a game like Starcraft that had a ten year gap between release dates.
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well the bw bashing was there even before sc2, so i would not call them sc2 trolls, as they probably do the same thing in sc2 streams (bashing on sc2, because bw is better, while on bw streams sc2 is suddenly better). Trolls are fun, especially if they keep the same nicks to bash on the games.
Anyway i have seen enough proof of people showing what training can do, so winning in sc2 is not a coinflip. In fact to win consistently you have to be way more concentrated all the time compared to bw. (maybe a bit to much, who knows i consider sc2 harder because of this)
though the need of control, so your units do something in bw is also amazing. (though easier to achieve, then being the strategical mastermind you have to be in sc2)
At the end sc2 and bw are to different to really compare, atleast from an esports perspectiv. And both sides saying sc2 is superb or not worth the hype (well compared to other hyped games it is 100times xDDD ), have some valid points. So only time will tell the truth i would say. The recent reign of koreans over foreigners is pretty much a proof that training can give the edge. (and since it also happened on maps that weren't used mostly). So i guess the not coinflip side gaind some points there.
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Obviously the mechanics are easier to get a grasp of in SC2 for a new player rather than if a new player tried to learn SC:BW. But, is that necessarily a bad thing? We get to see things that perhaps we would never see in SC:BW that we will see in SC2 because the focus is more on strategy and decision making but it's not like you can be GSL Champ nowadays and suck at micro or macro. Also, micro is not exactly easy you have to split marines to be as cost effective as possible, split banelings to be cost effective, dodge storms, snipe a HT/infestor, feedback an infestor or ghost. Have well placed storm, good forcefields, I mean the list goes on and on. It's not like micro is dead.
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This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units.
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On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units.
True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode.
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On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode.
Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly.
Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about.
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On July 17 2011 10:00 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode. Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly. Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about.
sure.
Easier mechanics allows non-pro-house atmosphere in the training of players. This allows western countries to remain competitive in a global scale allowing esport to not be confined into just one country. This expands esport into a more normalized structure worldwide increasing global support of esports both financially and numerically (fanwise--as is already seen)
.
in the end, esports is improved instead of confined to Korea. Rebuttal?
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If you want this to be about esport as a culture, esport as an industry and esport as a way of life--sc2 is much bigger and much more succesful than BW. If you want this to be about rewarding skill--the fact that sc2 punishes mistakes more harshly than BW means that it's a much better showcasing of skill. If you want this to be about how broodwar is harder than sc2--harder isn't better and if you believe it to be so then unplug your keyboard.
Which one do you wish to argue?
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On July 17 2011 10:00 gn0m wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode. Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly. Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about.
He's just trolling you. Its probably better not to try and make a reasonable point to him..
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On July 17 2011 10:43 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 10:00 gn0m wrote:On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode. Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly. Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about. He's just trolling you. Its probably better not to try and make a reasonable point to him..
the ostrich defense 
I love it when the only rebuttal is putting one's head in the sand
but seriously, let this thread die.
BW fans will always feel that BW is better.
SC2 fans will always be defensive when their game is made fun of.
BW fans will always feel that SC2 will die out soon.
SC2 fan will never understand why BW fans ignore the global success of the game.
The end result is that BW fans should stop posting such malicious threads on the SC2 forums for the same reasons that SC2 fans should stop posting malicious threads on the BW forum. (that happens a lot right? It's not just BW doing this? Right?)
end this thread please.
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On July 17 2011 10:53 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 10:43 zawk9 wrote:On July 17 2011 10:00 gn0m wrote:On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode. Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly. Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about. He's just trolling you. Its probably better not to try and make a reasonable point to him.. the ostrich defense I love it when the only rebuttal is putting one's head in the sand
Its not a defense (I actually agree with your side at least partially); its an observation.
Most of your arguments consist of replacing the opposing persons argument with a more extreme one, making sweeping generalizations, or seemingly attempting to get a rise out of the person with an extreme statement. If you want to have a rational debate on what is a very subjective subject I'd be happy too anytime I'd even play devils advocate if I thought the discussion was interesting enough or likely to lead to some interesting insight. Until you change the above (most importantly addressing what was written instead of what you infer was said) there's not much of a point in any of that though. Subjective subjects tend to be fickle anyway.
end this thread please.
Sound advice!
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On July 17 2011 10:37 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 10:00 gn0m wrote:On July 17 2011 09:10 lorkac wrote:On July 17 2011 07:53 gn1k wrote:
This is such a stupid article. Saying that brood war is a better game because the AI and the interface is worse. By your logic SC2 would be a better game if you could only play using the mouse or pro gamers had to play using an Xbox 360 controller.
Brood war had higher level play because it has been out for much longer and people have figured it out to a much higher degree. The main thing for me that makes SC2 so fun is that the interface is better and you can focus on the interesting part of the game instead of babysitting your stupid brood war units. True BW fans play on the apple touchpad--having a mouse is far too easy mode. Wow, these analogies are really blowing out of proportion. Your reasoning is terrible, BW players don’t want to play on touchpads anymore than SC2 players want a button that instantly makes a 200/200 army, or units that can micro themselves perfectly. Try to accept that SC2 is an easier game due to the improved/simplified mechanics (whatever you want to call it). Some like it this way while others don’t, but that is irrelevant. Once you have grasped that, you can actually discuss what implication this have on the competitive scene and the future of the game, which is exactly what this thread is about. sure. Easier mechanics allows non-pro-house atmosphere in the training of players. This allows western countries to remain competitive in a global scale allowing esport to not be confined into just one country. This expands esport into a more normalized structure worldwide increasing global support of esports both financially and numerically (fanwise--as is already seen) . in the end, esports is improved instead of confined to Korea. Rebuttal?
Yes and this is what the OP is talking about. Easier mechanics allows players to spend less time on the game and still be competitive, while players that is spending a ridiculous amount of time would not benefit much from the hours they put in. Yes, this might allow the game to maintain support outside of Korea. But it also means that the game will reach a point where it gets hard to distinguish the players from each other (skill wise) and games will be determined by the smallest mistakes. Which leads me to your second point:
On July 17 2011 10:41 lorkac wrote:
If you want this to be about rewarding skill--the fact that sc2 punishes mistakes more harshly than BW means that it's a much better showcasing of skill.
SC2 punishes mistakes more because there is less room for a better player to make a comeback. In BW a player is rewarded for skill in each encounter – a better player can make a mistake and still win the game because he will outplay his opponent in every aspect. This means that in a best of series, the better player will more often come out on top. Since you are clearly a fan of extreme examples, here is one for you: Let’s say that you were going to play Federer in a tennis match. Do you think that you would have a better shot at winning if you played five sets, or do you think that you would do better if you only played one ball (and thus mistakes would be punished incredibly harsh.)? Your chances would obviously be slim either way but I think you understand that five sets (mistakes are not punished as harsh) rewards skill and one ball (mistakes are punished hard) reward flukes.
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lorkac, this is not an argument but a criticism of your posts. You seem to have the most replies of any person in this thread. Yet you haven't been able to contribute a single interesting thought or shown you understood anything yourself. The only thing you care about is defending your game no matter what.
Just stop. People that come from a SC BW point of view are going to make some points that one can have issues with. Just stop responding to that. It doesn't matter if you can cherry pick something that you can have issues with from their posts.
Let's let this thread continue without you and see if that makes it better or worse. It seems you just want to keep this thread bad until it gets closed or goes dead. Let's see if it improves or gets worse without you.
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EPT
