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So did anybody post what the developer of torchlight 2 said about piracy and LAN to compare with the HoN developer?
Here’s a selection of direct quotes from Max Schaefer, formerly a VP at Blizzard North and one of the frontmen on Diablo.
On Asian piracy: “Millions and millions of copies of Torchlight downloaded from the illicit market in certain Asian territories. And that’s fine with us. We knew it was gonna happen. For us, we kind of see it as, down the road, we’re building an audience. We’ve long since announced that we’re going to be doing an MMO, and y’know, we kind of view it as a marketing tool for us. We’re going to have millions of people who are familiar with our franchise, familiar with our style, and who are going to be ready customers when we do a global MMO.”
On DRM: “You’re fighting against an immovable force by complaining and being paranoid about [piracy] and all that. We figure if we’re just nice to our customers, charge a low price for our game to begin with, don’t over-burden them with crazy DRM, and customers will be nice to us too. And so far, they have been.”
“We got a lot of letters from people saying ‘Hey, I pirated your game, but it was really cool, so I bought it.’ Y’know, we’re cool with that, we’re not as concerned about that sort of thing as other companies, especially if it makes our honest players inconvenienced. We assume that everyone is an honest player, and we want to make their experience as cool as possible.”
On LAN support, which was just confirmed: “I don’t know why everyone else doesn’t do it. I understand that a lot of other companies want to run you through their portal to expose you to the other products they have and make it easy for you to click a button and buy other stuff. But we’re a small company–we have Torchlight and Torchlight 2. There’s really no reason for us to do that sort of thing. And it’s something [fans] have requested, and we’re happy to be able to do it.”
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I hope everyone here knew that pirating was the reason there is no lan in sc2. Nobody is surprised here right? The guy is very smart and it was VERY well put. Excellent points and he is on point for that matter. The argument that piraters were never customers anyway is false. Some piraters never would have put the cash in.. but ill tell you what. I gaurantee you that there are many guys who would pay for the game if they "had to" but if there was a chance to play without paying then they would take it on a dime. That set of players = significant amount of $$$ like it or not.
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On June 25 2011 12:32 coolcor wrote:So did anybody post what the developer of torchlight 2 said about piracy and LAN to compare with the HoN developer? + Show Spoiler +Here’s a selection of direct quotes from Max Schaefer, formerly a VP at Blizzard North and one of the frontmen on Diablo.
On Asian piracy: “Millions and millions of copies of Torchlight downloaded from the illicit market in certain Asian territories. And that’s fine with us. We knew it was gonna happen. For us, we kind of see it as, down the road, we’re building an audience. We’ve long since announced that we’re going to be doing an MMO, and y’know, we kind of view it as a marketing tool for us. We’re going to have millions of people who are familiar with our franchise, familiar with our style, and who are going to be ready customers when we do a global MMO.”
On DRM: “You’re fighting against an immovable force by complaining and being paranoid about [piracy] and all that. We figure if we’re just nice to our customers, charge a low price for our game to begin with, don’t over-burden them with crazy DRM, and customers will be nice to us too. And so far, they have been.”
“We got a lot of letters from people saying ‘Hey, I pirated your game, but it was really cool, so I bought it.’ Y’know, we’re cool with that, we’re not as concerned about that sort of thing as other companies, especially if it makes our honest players inconvenienced. We assume that everyone is an honest player, and we want to make their experience as cool as possible.”
On LAN support, which was just confirmed: “I don’t know why everyone else doesn’t do it. I understand that a lot of other companies want to run you through their portal to expose you to the other products they have and make it easy for you to click a button and buy other stuff. But we’re a small company–we have Torchlight and Torchlight 2. There’s really no reason for us to do that sort of thing. And it’s something [fans] have requested, and we’re happy to be able to do it.”
So, that's where the old Blizzard went. Cool.
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On June 24 2011 17:35 Destro wrote:
Im still having an issue as to why LAN is IMPOSSIBLE to have without piracy? Is it an ICCUP thing they are afraid of? if so im pretty sure they could sue into the stone age with sc2.... if its really to prevent kids from sharing the game and having 10 people play it off one game purchase in some basement lan.. then thats a very small percentage of players..
even then, wouldnt it be amazing advertising to buy the real thing with single player and battlenet and the whole ordeal? I can think of endless games where i played at a buddy's place for the first time and immediately went out and bought it to play more.
it's more than just piracy (which is still a big part of it). the whole KeSPA fiasco where they claimed that playing on LAN meant that they weren't using Blizzard's property outside of what they had already rightfully paid for meant that Blizzard had no control of the use of its game in major tournaments in S. Korea. This is a way for them to also sanction tournaments and provide licenses to organizations that want to hold tournaments using Blizzard's intellectual property. i neither agree or disagree with this position, it's just a statement about Blizzard's views based on what i've read.
i also remember playing starcraft for the first time at my friend's house. i had him immediately burn me a copy so i could play it as soon as i got home.
[edit]: plus speaking from a business perspective, what percentage of sales do you think are lost to the lacking LAN feature than would be lost to piracy? this is of course speculative but i think most people would come to the same conclusion.
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On June 25 2011 12:32 coolcor wrote:So did anybody post what the developer of torchlight 2 said about piracy and LAN to compare with the HoN developer? Show nested quote +Here’s a selection of direct quotes from Max Schaefer, formerly a VP at Blizzard North and one of the frontmen on Diablo.
On Asian piracy: “Millions and millions of copies of Torchlight downloaded from the illicit market in certain Asian territories. And that’s fine with us. We knew it was gonna happen. For us, we kind of see it as, down the road, we’re building an audience. We’ve long since announced that we’re going to be doing an MMO, and y’know, we kind of view it as a marketing tool for us. We’re going to have millions of people who are familiar with our franchise, familiar with our style, and who are going to be ready customers when we do a global MMO.”
On DRM: “You’re fighting against an immovable force by complaining and being paranoid about [piracy] and all that. We figure if we’re just nice to our customers, charge a low price for our game to begin with, don’t over-burden them with crazy DRM, and customers will be nice to us too. And so far, they have been.”
“We got a lot of letters from people saying ‘Hey, I pirated your game, but it was really cool, so I bought it.’ Y’know, we’re cool with that, we’re not as concerned about that sort of thing as other companies, especially if it makes our honest players inconvenienced. We assume that everyone is an honest player, and we want to make their experience as cool as possible.”
On LAN support, which was just confirmed: “I don’t know why everyone else doesn’t do it. I understand that a lot of other companies want to run you through their portal to expose you to the other products they have and make it easy for you to click a button and buy other stuff. But we’re a small company–we have Torchlight and Torchlight 2. There’s really no reason for us to do that sort of thing. And it’s something [fans] have requested, and we’re happy to be able to do it.”
this kind of seems like simple pandering to me. they're painting the "big companies" as the bad guys and rallying support and sympathy for their own products, no?
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Sanya12364 Posts
The thing I pirate and don't buy these days are TV shows not games.
Music is too easy to buy if it's available.
I'll pirate games I own if the DRM and security are pain.
The segment that piracy is possibly a real revenue drain is the 15-24 range: young people without much money but have plenty of time and are fairly savvy on technology.
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On June 25 2011 12:47 NgrySqrrl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 17:35 Destro wrote:
Im still having an issue as to why LAN is IMPOSSIBLE to have without piracy? Is it an ICCUP thing they are afraid of? if so im pretty sure they could sue into the stone age with sc2.... if its really to prevent kids from sharing the game and having 10 people play it off one game purchase in some basement lan.. then thats a very small percentage of players..
even then, wouldnt it be amazing advertising to buy the real thing with single player and battlenet and the whole ordeal? I can think of endless games where i played at a buddy's place for the first time and immediately went out and bought it to play more. it's more than just piracy (which is still a big part of it). the whole KeSPA fiasco where they claimed that playing on LAN meant that they weren't using Blizzard's property outside of what they had already rightfully paid for meant that Blizzard had no control of the use of its game in major tournaments in S. Korea. This is a way for them to also sanction tournaments and provide licenses to organizations that want to hold tournaments using Blizzard's intellectual property. i neither agree or disagree with this position, it's just a statement about Blizzard's views based on what i've read. i also remember playing starcraft for the first time at my friend's house. i had him immediately burn me a copy so i could play it as soon as i got home. [edit]: plus speaking from a business perspective, what percentage of sales do you think are lost to the lacking LAN feature than would be lost to piracy? this is of course speculative but i think most people would come to the same conclusion.
i feel like the kespa thing just went on for far too long before blizzard stepped in and tried to stop it.
had they sued kespa before it became a full on business/corporation im sure they would have won and blizzard would of retained IP rights to this day.
seriously iccup isn't going to happen even if private servers came about.
blizzard would simply branch a deal with GSL/ESL/NASL/TSL/etc that their pro players would only play on battle.net and never a 3rd party ladder or else be suspended from the league/tournament. most people wanna play where the pros are. so everyone else would play on b.net too.
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On June 25 2011 12:52 NgrySqrrl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 12:32 coolcor wrote:So did anybody post what the developer of torchlight 2 said about piracy and LAN to compare with the HoN developer? Here’s a selection of direct quotes from Max Schaefer, formerly a VP at Blizzard North and one of the frontmen on Diablo.
On Asian piracy: “Millions and millions of copies of Torchlight downloaded from the illicit market in certain Asian territories. And that’s fine with us. We knew it was gonna happen. For us, we kind of see it as, down the road, we’re building an audience. We’ve long since announced that we’re going to be doing an MMO, and y’know, we kind of view it as a marketing tool for us. We’re going to have millions of people who are familiar with our franchise, familiar with our style, and who are going to be ready customers when we do a global MMO.”
On DRM: “You’re fighting against an immovable force by complaining and being paranoid about [piracy] and all that. We figure if we’re just nice to our customers, charge a low price for our game to begin with, don’t over-burden them with crazy DRM, and customers will be nice to us too. And so far, they have been.”
“We got a lot of letters from people saying ‘Hey, I pirated your game, but it was really cool, so I bought it.’ Y’know, we’re cool with that, we’re not as concerned about that sort of thing as other companies, especially if it makes our honest players inconvenienced. We assume that everyone is an honest player, and we want to make their experience as cool as possible.”
On LAN support, which was just confirmed: “I don’t know why everyone else doesn’t do it. I understand that a lot of other companies want to run you through their portal to expose you to the other products they have and make it easy for you to click a button and buy other stuff. But we’re a small company–we have Torchlight and Torchlight 2. There’s really no reason for us to do that sort of thing. And it’s something [fans] have requested, and we’re happy to be able to do it.”
this kind of seems like simple pandering to me. they're painting the "big companies" as the bad guys and rallying support and sympathy for their own products, no?
Somewhat. I think the point is more that as a small company, they don't have the resources to provide the additional services that would justify creating an online hub ala battle.net.
Blizzard on the other hand is large enough to create such a hub. And furthermore, they have a good reason to do so with their integration across their portfolio of releases (i.e., wow, sc2, and d3).
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On June 25 2011 03:31 latan wrote:
so let me try to switch the direction of the discussion a bit.
There could be alternatives to LAN that a game like sc2 could implement, for example, utorrent has a feature that tries to look for peers within the same network the computer is in. if sc2 is p2p they could do something similar, smart routing or something like that, im not a tech guy so im asking, would this be possible? so two computers with a direct connection to each other would p2p directly even if they're playing through b.net.
You reverse engineer, as stated in a earlier post, to send the authentication to a "fake-real" battle net server that directs you to your "friend opponent" You create a UI out of this then you get a private server.(similier to how G-Arena functions for dota, and god knows very few dota players actually bought war3)
This is actually a cool topic because this delves into how games are coded, why games lack features and we call developers idiots for not doing so.
The point of battle net is that a master server actually "reads" your commands before sending it to your opponent, this increases lag (search about command delays between single/multi)
There are other cases that code their game differently, See League of legends.
Where data is only sent to ONLY the vision on your current screen, and not the fog of war. This is where you break private servers, replays, and almost observer mode (though there are ugly work-arounds in lol's case).
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HoN makers are talking about this? The guys that said ... well US and Europe have to pay but Asia can play for free? The guys that just copypasted basicly each item and hero...ok they renamed it Oo...talk about why there is more and more internet only? The guys that hyped their game basicly with preorder money and got raped by an freetoplay game? This is just like if EA would come and explain what an good rts needs. They should just shut up and keep going with what they can. Go out and copypaste an other game, boost it in esport with basicly zero community and just loose to other games. Myb their next game will Duty of Call, Huhu, StrikeCounter or CraftStar WarBrood.
There is nothing to discuss, removing Lan is just the simpelst way to remove things like DRM and other nasty, useless copyprotections.
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On June 25 2011 13:03 tadL wrote:
HoN makers are talking about this? The guys that said ... well US and Europe have to pay but Asia can play for free? The guys that just copypasted basicly each item and hero...ok they renamed it Oo...talk about why there is more and more internet only? The guys that hyped their game basicly with preorder money and got raped by an freetoplay game? This is just like if EA would come and explain what an good rts needs. They should just shut up and keep going with what they can. Go out and copypaste an other game, boost it in esport with basicly zero community and just loose to other games. Myb their next game will Duty of Call, Huhu, StrikeCounter or CraftStar WarBrood.
There is nothing to discuss, removing Lan is just the simpelst way to remove things like DRM and other nasty, useless copyprotections.
But in fact, cracked SC2 versions still get LAN.
The only thing you actual accomplish is remove it from the persons that "really" pay money for the game.
The crackers and hackers still get what they want , it just damages the real paying customers and thats ridiculous stupid.
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Funny, the witcher 2 devs believed in a game that didn't use draconian DRM and the like to prevent piracy, and instead just went with the policy of "listen to your consumers more carefully and give them what they want", and guess what? A DRM-less game sold over 400k copies in one week. Granted, I haven't followed the sales since then, but I don't regret a penny I spent on that. And you wouldn't believe the advantages of buying a hard copy - you get all sorts of fun goodies, and instruction manual that is actually necessary to read before you start the game, like the good old days. But did you buy it online from GoG as a European? Well, they know the Euro has a much higher exchange rate than the dollar, but they can't charge different prices. What did they do? They offered the difference between 45 euro and 45 dollar(I believe it was 14 euro or something) in store credit so you could buy another game.
Please, the piracy argument is weak. Piracy happens and they can deal with it, but listening to your consumer is what makes games sell. Same approach valve takes to their games, which is probably one of the most successful video game companies in the world.
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A real easy way to prevent piracy is to have a real shitty game. Many companies seem to be following this method of anti-piracy these days.
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On June 25 2011 13:03 tadL wrote:
HoN makers are talking about this? The guys that said ... well US and Europe have to pay but Asia can play for free? The guys that just copypasted basicly each item and hero...ok they renamed it Oo...talk about why there is more and more internet only? The guys that hyped their game basicly with preorder money and got raped by an freetoplay game? This is just like if EA would come and explain what an good rts needs. They should just shut up and keep going with what they can. Go out and copypaste an other game, boost it in esport with basicly zero community and just loose to other games. Myb their next game will Duty of Call, Huhu, StrikeCounter or CraftStar WarBrood.
There is nothing to discuss, removing Lan is just the simpelst way to remove things like DRM and other nasty, useless copyprotections.
They didn't get raped.
LoL is terrible. Only reason it has players over hon is the people that can't play dota, and those that think LoL is a good game. For whatever reason.
Piracy killed LAN. It is a lot harder to pirate a game without LAN.
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Pirates didn't kill LAN, stupid companies that don't know how to implement it properly killed LAN.
IE: Use your cdkey that you purchased to log on the way you usually do so it is known you payed for the game and then LAN can be selected.
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On June 25 2011 12:32 coolcor wrote:So did anybody post what the developer of torchlight 2 said about piracy and LAN to compare with the HoN developer? Show nested quote +Here’s a selection of direct quotes from Max Schaefer, formerly a VP at Blizzard North and one of the frontmen on Diablo.
On Asian piracy: “Millions and millions of copies of Torchlight downloaded from the illicit market in certain Asian territories. And that’s fine with us. We knew it was gonna happen. For us, we kind of see it as, down the road, we’re building an audience. We’ve long since announced that we’re going to be doing an MMO, and y’know, we kind of view it as a marketing tool for us. We’re going to have millions of people who are familiar with our franchise, familiar with our style, and who are going to be ready customers when we do a global MMO.”
On DRM: “You’re fighting against an immovable force by complaining and being paranoid about [piracy] and all that. We figure if we’re just nice to our customers, charge a low price for our game to begin with, don’t over-burden them with crazy DRM, and customers will be nice to us too. And so far, they have been.”
“We got a lot of letters from people saying ‘Hey, I pirated your game, but it was really cool, so I bought it.’ Y’know, we’re cool with that, we’re not as concerned about that sort of thing as other companies, especially if it makes our honest players inconvenienced. We assume that everyone is an honest player, and we want to make their experience as cool as possible.”
On LAN support, which was just confirmed: “I don’t know why everyone else doesn’t do it. I understand that a lot of other companies want to run you through their portal to expose you to the other products they have and make it easy for you to click a button and buy other stuff. But we’re a small company–we have Torchlight and Torchlight 2. There’s really no reason for us to do that sort of thing. And it’s something [fans] have requested, and we’re happy to be able to do it.”
They'll act all nice and open with the community right up to the point where Torchlight or their MMO gets big enough. Then they'll turn protective and include DRM and other stuff.
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On June 25 2011 16:37 HoldenR wrote:
Funny, the witcher 2 devs believed in a game that didn't use draconian DRM and the like to prevent piracy, and instead just went with the policy of "listen to your consumers more carefully and give them what they want", and guess what? A DRM-less game sold over 400k copies in one week. Granted, I haven't followed the sales since then, but I don't regret a penny I spent on that. And you wouldn't believe the advantages of buying a hard copy - you get all sorts of fun goodies, and instruction manual that is actually necessary to read before you start the game, like the good old days. But did you buy it online from GoG as a European? Well, they know the Euro has a much higher exchange rate than the dollar, but they can't charge different prices. What did they do? They offered the difference between 45 euro and 45 dollar(I believe it was 14 euro or something) in store credit so you could buy another game.
Please, the piracy argument is weak. Piracy happens and they can deal with it, but listening to your consumer is what makes games sell. Same approach valve takes to their games, which is probably one of the most successful video game companies in the world.
The Witcher 2 has sold about 500 000 copies so far, not really stellar and i'm pretty sure piracy has made a dent into their sales. If they developed for 360/PS3 the sales would probably exceed 1-2 million easy just due to the lack of piracy for those formats.
On June 25 2011 17:22 Kamais_Ookin wrote:
Pirates didn't kill LAN, stupid companies that don't know how to implement it properly killed LAN.
IE: Use your cdkey that you purchased to log on the way you usually do so it is known you payed for the game and then LAN can be selected.
Congratulations! You haven't read the thread where people have explained how this can easily be bypassed.
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If they developed for 360/PS3 the sales would probably exceed 1-2 million easy just due to the lack of piracy for those formats.
lack of piracy on these formats? are you serious?
Its so simple to crack your xbox so you never ever have to buy an overpriced game again.
So your "lack of piracy" leads to an 10€ price increase in comparison to a "easily pirated" PC version?
So I demand MORE pirates, maybe games will become even cheaper!
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On June 25 2011 18:30 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +If they developed for 360/PS3 the sales would probably exceed 1-2 million easy just due to the lack of piracy for those formats.
lack of piracy on these formats? are you serious? Its so simple to crack your xbox so you never ever have to buy an overpriced game again. So your "lack of piracy" leads to an 10€ price increase in comparison to a "easily pirated" PC version? So I demand MORE pirates, maybe games will become even cheaper!
except crack your xbox and you either don't play on xbox live, or you're guaranteed to be banned from it eventually.
also opening up your xbox and modding it is much harder than going to a torrent site and downloading a game.
really now.
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except crack your xbox and you either don't play on xbox live, or you're guaranteed to be banned from it eventually
because a LAN version lets you play via Bnet? Even if you play a cracked SC2 multiplayer you dont have the benefits of matchmaking, you have just a few ppl who are eventually online if you call them for a game.
More special services = more paying customers
Less specials and more stupid protection measures = harder for pirates but the will eventually overcome it in the end and more pissed off customers.
And get banned from x-box live is like an increase in meat prices for a vegetarian.
Ppl who dont want to spend money on games surely spend money on x-box live...
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EPT
