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On March 28 2013 03:17 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Even though Incontrol is goof at times I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says. I think the discussion around the region lock was interesting. I think over time that region locking will gain favor, benefiting both competition and viewership. The reason for this is that due to foreigner lack of dedication (speaking in Korean terms) has resulted in an accelerating gap. This only demoralizes and dis-encourages foreigners, and to-be foreigner pros from even trying.
Personally I wouldn't mind watching Koreans all day, I generally turn off the stream if it's foreigner vs. foreigner anyway, but in order to foster future growth in EU/NA for native pros region locking will become necessary. If the prize pools increase and the chance of winning multiplies, more people will compete. All it takes is for a couple of guys to say "I want all the money!", at which point any disadvantage will be solely on the players (though it always has been and still is), but blaming Koreans will not be acceptable anymore. At first the skill level will be way behind than the Korean scene, but a steady stream of money and hope for victory will lead to Korean style team-houses and skill. This is possible with the assumption that EU/NA team leaders/owners step up and make serious teams and houses with PROPER coaches and training methods. I still think there is massive room for improvement, even with a 6-8hr schedule.
That logic is wildly optimistic. The way you phrase it makes perfect sense, but where is the coin to come from?
To equal Korean infrastructure, you need way more full-time players, more team houses, coaches, semi-pro players to equalize the ladder-level... IdrA's stream in 2011 often had the problem that there were simply no players of his level online at some hours of the day. Now he has the EG "Frathouse" but how many players have that privilege?
I hope 2013 proves me wrong, but I think it's naive to assume that at any point will there be enough money and player interest to have three equally awesome regions. The only thing the region lock then changes is that players win a chunk of moolah before they get destroyed by Koreans.
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in the end, all we can really do is sit back and wait for the announcement next week, then continue to sit back and wait and see what's actually going to happen. i can definitely see a region lock thing going either way, and while they can certainly make good or bad decisions, the outcome is ultimately not gonna be in Blizzard's hands imo.
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On March 28 2013 03:34 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 03:17 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Even though Incontrol is goof at times I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says. I think the discussion around the region lock was interesting. I think over time that region locking will gain favor, benefiting both competition and viewership. The reason for this is that due to foreigner lack of dedication (speaking in Korean terms) has resulted in an accelerating gap. This only demoralizes and dis-encourages foreigners, and to-be foreigner pros from even trying.
Personally I wouldn't mind watching Koreans all day, I generally turn off the stream if it's foreigner vs. foreigner anyway, but in order to foster future growth in EU/NA for native pros region locking will become necessary. If the prize pools increase and the chance of winning multiplies, more people will compete. All it takes is for a couple of guys to say "I want all the money!", at which point any disadvantage will be solely on the players (though it always has been and still is), but blaming Koreans will not be acceptable anymore. At first the skill level will be way behind than the Korean scene, but a steady stream of money and hope for victory will lead to Korean style team-houses and skill. This is possible with the assumption that EU/NA team leaders/owners step up and make serious teams and houses with PROPER coaches and training methods. I still think there is massive room for improvement, even with a 6-8hr schedule. That logic is wildly optimistic. The way you phrase it makes perfect sense, but where is the coin to come from? To equal Korean infrastructure, you need way more full-time players, more team houses, coaches, semi-pro players to equalize the ladder-level... IdrA's stream in 2011 often had the problem that there were simply no players of his level online at some hours of the day. Now he has the EG "Frathouse" but how many players have that privilege? I hope 2013 proves me wrong, but I think it's naive to assume that at any point will there be enough money and player interest to have three equally awesome regions. The only thing the region lock then changes is that players win a chunk of moolah before they get destroyed by Koreans.
When I meant increased prize pool I meant that the current standing pools without Koreans in them are in a sense an increase. Instead of 80% of the money going to a Korean pro and his team and the rest divided between a ton of foreigners and more that got nothing, 100% of the money staying in EU/NA would bolster teams and players financially to expand.
You can already see how many foreign owned teams are dropping players in favor of Korean rosters. How many once big teams are completely dropping SC2 support and rosters? When your budget is limited and your players are semi-popular but do not bring in results or prize money it's no wonder full foreign teams struggle. How can the team afford better managements, housing, etc., if their players have very little chance of ever bringing in money? Region locking tournaments is basically region locking the money, and if teams want a piece of that pie then they need to have regional pros, hence an incentive to keep such players on teams and even recruit new ones.
Obviously the success of the game in long run is dependent on many more factors than this, but if we want SC2 to be truly internationally competitive such measures have to be taken. As I've said I wouldn't care for such measures because I'm fine watching Koreans, but if a lot of people want otherwise then the bitter truth must be accepted. Foreign teams and players are falling behind faster and faster, something they themselves (for the most part) have dug themselves into. In fact I remember things like, "Oh, SC2 macro and mechanics so much easier than BW, you barely need to practice to be good anymore..." (more paraphrasing, but you get it). I feel like foreigners once again catastrophically underestimated the value of practice and let themselves believe that the game's "easier" mechanics would always even things out. To narrow the widening gap in an acceptably reasonable time foreign teams need a "bail out". Naturally there must be incentives for teams and players to look beyond regional tournaments as well, a strong incentive to compete with the best.
Personally, the best approach would be to have region locks as temporary measures where the ultimate goal is to not have them in the future. The goal here is to ultimately establish a much more stable source of income to NA/EU players, and we must not forget the disparity in cost of living in high wealth countries. If players and teams do not have steady incomes than any attempt at getting better becomes a greater risk. Regional tournaments can provide this steady source, and since its limited it can only support a discrete amount of players and teams, however if players and teams are too lazy this limited source will be spread too randomly and between too many people. I'm not talking absurd sums or populations here. Players in NA and EU should have the opportunity to pursue pro gaming without the risk of having absolutely no income and hope of winning. If you practice hard, have some measure of talent and put an effort into the game (5-8 hrs a day) you should not be getting paid less than a teenage McDonalds fry cook saving for their vespa. And to be honest there are so many Korean players as well that are in the same shoes as many struggling EU/NA pros, you just don't hear about them because they don't bitch and moan on their streams (if they even have one). Region locked tournaments are, as I would see it, only a temporary measure. In the future there have to be more fair prize distributions. While it's nice to see someone win $50k, it's also a bummer to know that less than that amount is shared anywhere between 3 to 30+ people. Top 4 distribution at an online tournament is OK, but at a LAN? I know that the point is to start making a profit and that money doesn't come out of thin air, but this great hesitance coming from all big parties to really invest heavily and long term brings into question their confidence about the future of e-sports. I mean Blizzard can spend 100 million+ developing a game, why not the same into developing e-sports in the long run?
This is where I feel Blizzard has a large role to play, more than the players and teams. Ever since they launched SC2 they have been fighting tooth and nail to be the orchestrators (we'll see the scope of their up and coming announcement), yet I feel there is much left to be desired. Besides the prize pools Blizzard can put a lot more effort into rewarding and acknowledging achievements and victories. Their website could be so much better in terms of e-sports. I mean they could have (they have the money and the means) massively sexy databases of teams and players with stats, etc where excelling players and teams are often showcased and praised, clips of awesome moments featured, etc. They could have extensively detailed tournament tracking and interactive web services beyond a single forum and reliance on 3rd party sites. I mean they want to be closely integrated with all tournaments, why not more than an small boxed announcement and blog, and if they want to be running the show then why is everything I need to know about tournaments and players found everywhere else but their portal? So many people visit the battle.net site and yet I feel they take so little advantage of their resources and capability. Obviously this will cost money, but if they are serious about growing this e-sport they need to put much more in. This is past just making a game and selling it, to make it a large e-sport they need to sell MORE than just the game. They need to not only make the game balanced but they have to also work towards a balance that is dynamic, fun and intense. A 30 min no rush turtle fest might be balanced but not fun. MLG looks like an auspicious start, but the game has yet to develop and my suspicion is that the game will soon devolve into WoL'esque turtle fests with frustrating or boring balance. Obviously Blizzard has been banking and supporting a lot of the biggest tournaments, and that's great, but that's backstage stuff, I'm talking about spectacle and flamboyance. The investment might be large but in the long run an aggresive push for publicity and expansion will attract more and bigger sponsors and outside capital.
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I was wondering about the "region locking". Would making it so
1) each player chooses a region for a set period of time
2) that player can assist any tournament, but will only receive points for the WCS tournament for finishes in there chosen region.
So either Koreans would need to choose, NA and go to plenty of NA events, or they choose Korea and practice more for Korean results if they want points.
I just wanted to state the option.
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"Why you gotta use prison as an example?"
LMFAO
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
No Inside the Game today fellas! Sorry, instead there will be a LO3 discussing the big change to be announced at the start of the show! (the korea thing getting announced today etc)
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On April 03 2013 03:00 iNcontroL wrote:
No Inside the Game today fellas! Sorry, instead there will be a LO3 discussing the big change to be announced at the start of the show! (the korea thing getting announced today etc)
That kinda makes sense. But we do get one this week, no? It's just some shuffling around?
A junkie needs his ItG, it is known.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
yeah I hear ya.. I will talk to wheat but there is a good chance we miss this week  Sorry mate
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Ah well, there's always a next week 
Thanks for keeping us up to date, appreciated!
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On April 03 2013 03:18 iNcontroL wrote:yeah I hear ya.. I will talk to wheat but there is a good chance we miss this week Sorry mate
It’s a bummer that there is no show, but I still think people are going to want to hear what you, Idra and Demulism have to say. You folks should consider doing something short the day after, without calls or anything. Just an idea, as people are pretty interested in the top secret announcement.
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On April 03 2013 03:18 iNcontroL wrote:yeah I hear ya.. I will talk to wheat but there is a good chance we miss this week Sorry mate
I appreciate you and IdrA popping by this thread so often, it really makes the Podcast seem rather interactive.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
we are going to be discussing WCS today on inside the game as well as widow mines, proleague etc etc..
tune in in 30 minutes!
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Can you guys talk about the awesome maps in proleague? They're making for awesome games :D
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Can we add inside the game to a stream favorite?
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Yeah... the "gold mine" is paritcularly interesting.
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Be sure to check out the MM - TL interview please, some good stuff in there (not much new, but still good points to talk about)
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North America studio run GSL, as god intended.
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Where can you find the signups for the upcoming NA or EU WCS season, incontrol talked about?
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wow...thanks for spoiling results! give us a little warning next time.
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EPT
