of all the MLGs North America (which is just Canada and USA) has 16 podium placements rounding out 2 of the top 6 countries. Sweden, Germany, and France? 7 COMBINED. but dont take my word for it, check Liquipedia IPL? NA = 3 EU = 2
Did you just include IPL1 which was NA only and early MLG's which were near NA only and used them to make a point about NA being decent? srsly? Btw: "Just Canada + USA" is probably still about ~double (or more) the population of Germany, France and Sweden together...
See, my little problem is: So EG/NA is training much... Many (good) EU players don't... SO why are they better? Seriously... It's kinda strange that they still seem to outshine your hard working guys...
and how many NA players go to Dreamhack? your point is moot
the "reason" Eu is better is because while your countries populations arent as high as the US, your per capita of pro gamers is MUCH higher. you have literally 3 or 4 times more players than NA. and other than Naniwa, who is a bamf, and Stephano, who is literally a statistical anomaly. hardly any of your players have any major wins compared to the total number of EU pro gamers. and almost none of them have multiple major wins.
training has nothing to do with the fact that you can literally field 3 times as many players as we do.
On June 27 2012 15:10 PhoenixDark wrote: The sad thing is that SC2 has been such a big hit in the foreign community, there's so much money being pumped in the scene despite some companies taking losses/relying on venture capitol, the fans are amazingly loyal...it's a shame barely any foreigners seem interested in putting in the work to truly do well. It's like a table at a feast being full of amazing food, and well within the grasp of these guys. But instead of truly taking advantage of it, they'd rather nibble off the edges. So someone streams in front of 2-3k people here or there, or gets on a podcast and does a good job promoting their team/product/self, or makes a good post on TL, etc. But when it comes to the actualy hard work and determination required to make a dent in this scene, where's the same passion and interest that's being put into marketing? I'm not saying no one is practicing. I'm saying something isn't right when, more than two years after SC2's release, only a handful of foreigners are making a dent against Koreans.
Naniwa gets a lot of shit for being an ass, but his dedication cannot be questioned. Huk has struggled a bit lately, but he's someone who is working hard to play as well as he knows he's capable of playing. In Europe, guys like Nerchio and Kas are working hard. Imagine if they had the ability to fly to nearly any event, like some of the guys on major US teams who readily admit they don't practice much. Sase is lucky enough to be on a team with the ability to send him places, and puts the work in to make the best of it - and it shows.
No one would be complaining if Artosis dropped this bomb instead of TB; in fact, Artosis has hinted at this before, but was nicer about it.These guys would rather be d-list internet celebrities than buckle down. I'm reminded of this great ad:
"Somewhere, someone is practicing." And he most likely ain't North American.
you just really like to shit on anything North American dont you....
you have posted like 5 or six times in the last 2 two pages saying literally the same thing every time. we get it. In the meantime, if you really want those lazy, skill-less North Americans to disappear. please get all of your friends and yourslef to email/twitter/contact Mouz, Acer, Atn, Empire, and all the other EU teams to actually market/promote themselves and host events and send their players to North America and Korea and take all of our money and leave us shitty Americans embarassed, shriveled up, and dead.
Till then, be happy that North America puts in effort and money into Starcraft and provide you with all this free content be happy that you get to enjoy it. and stop complaining already...
I have made what, 4 posts in this thread? Chill out
My points are valid. I'll refrain from continuing since I don't want to derail this responding to attacks. It's pretty clear NA has quite an amazing fanbase, multiple tournaments, and lots of media exposure. I'm just saying it's sad no one can truly take advantage of it because they'd rather practice a couple hours a day, stream/get paid, shill products, then go watch a movie.
your points are baseless as fuck. you have literally zero facts supporting them.
but ill give you facts of my own.
Nerchio: goes to every major EU tourney excluding things like ASUS invitationals (because hes not invited), hasnt won a single major event.
Kas: where you do you get the impression he works hard? bc all day on multiple different streams he just plays on the NA ladder and BMs the holy fuck out of other pros. hes probably the the most BM pro player at the moment. once again, no major wins.
Socke (and most of Atn in general): at MLG Anaheim, i got the chance to stand and talk with Khaldor and the manager of Atn for about 40 minutes while Socke played DRG. straight of the manager's mouth (a huge name btw, but i wont say who it is is bc he doesnt talk about it publically) he said that Socke only plays between 2 and 3 hours a day for the last 4-5 monthes and if he actually DID practice harder and more, he'd be doing even better.
Mana: just FINALLY won his first major win. good for him. says he doesnt practice enough due to school.
Morrow: hasnt won a major win since beta IEM (with an imbalanced as fuck build)
Sase: good as hell, not even in EU, still hasnt won anything major
Naniwa: just a beast, nothing more needs to be said, actually does work his ass off
Stephano: dont even get me started there.... he doesnt do shit for practicing...
Ret:admits he doesnt practice enough
and the list goes on. you literally have no idea what any of the EU player's actual work ethic is, BECAUSE THEY DONT SAY SHIT ABOUT IT TO THE PUBLIC. Dimaga may work his ass off,but you (or I) have no idea if he actually does and odds are, if they arent saying something about it. they probably arent doing anything special. where as its public knowledge how much EG trains. same with players like Illusion, Sheth and Axslav. but enough of that, lets talk numbers and results. of all the MLGs North America (which is just Canada and USA) has 16 podium placements rounding out 2 of the top 6 countries. Sweden, Germany, and France? 7 COMBINED. but dont take my word for it, check Liquipedia IPL? NA = 3 EU = 2
so yea... those americans... terrible?
and this is isnt even an NA v EU debate, EU also does well, edging out NA in IEM and Dreamhack. but dont be a random idiot spouting off information that has zero facts behind it. because frankly, you have NO IDEA how the Europeans actually practice. your reasoning is literally the fact that NA players are on commericials (like that could possibly be a bad thing) and the fact that they stream (as if Europeans dont stream) nevermind the fact that streaming obviously means they are playing, and you know, practicing.....
Kas ladders like a maniac. There are very few people that ladder more than him, so I'd say you dont know what you're talking about. He doesnt get big results cause you need more than ladder to really win but thats another thing.
MaNa just started focusing on starcraft. And as soon as he did he won DreamHack, so there...
SaSe is an amazing player, geting top4? at MLG is no small feat. And he's going to be even better in the comming months.
Stephano practices a lot. He'd just like you to think how he doesnt ever practice and is a genious or whatever. He could practice more, but there is no doubt he does a lot already.
And yes, Ret could really practice more because he is potentially one of the best zergs in the world. Hope he finds his motivation soon.
So I would call other people idiots spouting off information that has zero facts behind it, when you yourself dont know what you're talking about. Foreigners are behind in quantity and quality of practice, and its just going to get worse with the influx of KeSPA players. But unlike the bw days, we are in position to do something about it.
Hey, you spewed out up totally retarded numbers to show that NA is doing "ok", I brought none up, I just said that the numbers you used where absolutely useless. If you want to do this we would have to "rule out" koreans from tourneys and then take a look (and factor in which player actually lost to a korean...). Which would go way overboard while being futile and stupid.
of all the MLGs North America (which is just Canada and USA) has 16 podium placements rounding out 2 of the top 6 countries. Sweden, Germany, and France? 7 COMBINED. but dont take my word for it, check Liquipedia IPL? NA = 3 EU = 2
Did you just include IPL1 which was NA only and early MLG's which were near NA only and used them to make a point about NA being decent? srsly? Btw: "Just Canada + USA" is probably still about ~double (or more) the population of Germany, France and Sweden together...
See, my little problem is: So EG/NA is training much... Many (good) EU players don't... SO why are they better? Seriously... It's kinda strange that they still seem to outshine your hard working guys...
and how many NA players go to Dreamhack? your point is moot
the "reason" Eu is better is because while your countries populations arent as high as the US, your per capita of pro gamers is MUCH higher. you have literally 3 or 4 times more players than NA. and other than Naniwa, who is a bamf, and Stephano, who is literally a statistical anomaly. hardly any of your players have any major wins compared to the total number of EU pro gamers. and almost none of them have multiple major wins.
training has nothing to do with the fact that you can literally field 3 times as many players as we do.
I didn't see Dreamhack mentioned by anyone. Really.. if you must take the US based tourneys as a measure between EU and NA success, at least exclude the early time frame where hardly anyone was traveling for really new tourneys. So it would be best to start with IPL2 (the first IPL to allow both servers) and corresponding MLG Anaheim 2011 which was around the same time.
Hey, does anyone know the scottish guy incontrol was referencing towards the end when he said "I've only got one question, you play all day and you still lose, i don't get it." Just curious. Thanks.
Just wanted to give my oppinion on how stupid EG and particulary Incontrol are.
This was your big chance to rise above the hate and act professionaly. Because, well, you are suppose to be pros arent you? Totalbiscuit makes a remark about how he thinks you dont practise effectively when compared to koreans, which is clearly true. Even if you believe it or not, all you had to do was say he is wrong and people might of believed your argument. Instead you explode, make yourself look like a bigger joke and probaly turned tb's entire fanbase against you, your team and potentially starcraft. Im unsure why you decided to take shots at Bling "he hasnt won anything since tb sponsored him", well shit i must of been tripping when i saw him win insomnia lan and smash demuslim, the guy you tout as one of the best, in a showmatch. From there you took shots at Root for seemingly no reason, all the while sirscoots, apparently the manager for this car wreck was giddy and cheerleading in the chat.
On June 27 2012 18:27 xtango wrote: Just wanted to give my oppinion on how stupid EG and particulary Incontrol are.
This was your big chance to rise above the hate and act professionaly. Because, well, you are suppose to be pros arent you? Totalbiscuit makes a remark about how he thinks you dont practise effectively when compared to koreans, which is clearly true. Even if you believe it or not, all you had to do was say he is wrong and people might of believed your argument. Instead you explode, make yourself look like a bigger joke and probaly turned tb's entire fanbase against you, your team and potentially starcraft. Im unsure why you decided to take shots at Bling "he hasnt won anything since tb sponsored him", well shit i must of been tripping when i saw him win insomnia lan and smash demuslim, the guy you tout as one of the best, in a showmatch. From there you took shots at Root for seemingly no reason, all the while sirscoots, apparently the manager for this car wreck was giddy and cheerleading in the chat.
Sort your shit out EG, this was awful.
i actually don't know what to say. Did you even hear what incontrol said?
Obviously i did but i dont have rose tinted glasses like yourself. He took it way too far and personal. The "im gonna rip bling but say im joking so its ok" doesnt wash with me.
On June 27 2012 12:25 TotalBiscuit wrote: ... It's not about "working hard enough", it's about working right. It's about working the way the Koreans do. ...
When I was listening to the QnA I really liked this comment even though I don’t think laddering is the solution. If you listen to the next question he talks about directed practice which is something I rarely see. Don’t just ladder, don’t just play a best of X, but also practise in segments of specific exercises which allows you to cut out the parts of the game around it. The simplest example is baneling split challenge. So rather than arguing about the wording I’d for once love to see actual discussion about ways of practising.
I’m not saying players don’t do that at all, it’s just painful to see for example terrans lose against baneling zergling or baneling roach busts over and over and over (remember FXOLucky’s run in IPL3?) and still open up 1 rax expand and then have almost no units to hold an attack. I find it hard to believe that progamers did such directed practice and found out that it’s best to risk it and play greedily.
of all the MLGs North America (which is just Canada and USA) has 16 podium placements rounding out 2 of the top 6 countries. Sweden, Germany, and France? 7 COMBINED. but dont take my word for it, check Liquipedia IPL? NA = 3 EU = 2
Did you just include IPL1 which was NA only and early MLG's which were near NA only and used them to make a point about NA being decent? srsly? Btw: "Just Canada + USA" is probably still about ~double (or more) the population of Germany, France and Sweden together...
See, my little problem is: So EG/NA is training much... Many (good) EU players don't... SO why are they better? Seriously... It's kinda strange that they still seem to outshine your hard working guys...
and how many NA players go to Dreamhack? your point is moot
the "reason" Eu is better is because while your countries populations arent as high as the US, your per capita of pro gamers is MUCH higher. you have literally 3 or 4 times more players than NA. and other than Naniwa, who is a bamf, and Stephano, who is literally a statistical anomaly. hardly any of your players have any major wins compared to the total number of EU pro gamers. and almost none of them have multiple major wins.
training has nothing to do with the fact that you can literally field 3 times as many players as we do.
His point is not moot because he didn't make a point about Dreamhack.
Even looking at US based tournaments, where Europeans aren't overrepresented (usually rather the opposite), the foreigners making deep runs recently have all been Europeans (Stephano, Sase, Socke, Naniwa). The only comparable NA player is Huk, but he hasn't been performing very well lately. On top of that Thorzain and Mana have been taking down solid, although EU heavy, tournaments recently.
I don't know the pro players per capita numbers. Maybe it's true that there are more pro players per capita in EU. Maybe that's because the pro gaming environment in EU is better than in NA. Maybe it's because EU has a stronger gaming culture. Who knows? None of that justify you cursing and crying about someone making a baseless argument with zero facts, just to go on making a baseless argument with zero facts.
On June 27 2012 18:27 xtango wrote: Just wanted to give my oppinion on how stupid EG and particulary Incontrol are.
This was your big chance to rise above the hate and act professionaly. Because, well, you are suppose to be pros arent you? Totalbiscuit makes a remark about how he thinks you dont practise effectively when compared to koreans, which is clearly true. Even if you believe it or not, all you had to do was say he is wrong and people might of believed your argument. Instead you explode, make yourself look like a bigger joke and probaly turned tb's entire fanbase against you, your team and potentially starcraft. Im unsure why you decided to take shots at Bling "he hasnt won anything since tb sponsored him", well shit i must of been tripping when i saw him win insomnia lan and smash demuslim, the guy you tout as one of the best, in a showmatch. From there you took shots at Root for seemingly no reason, all the while sirscoots, apparently the manager for this car wreck was giddy and cheerleading in the chat.
On June 27 2012 18:04 jmbthirteen wrote: its so cool to see people talk about players amount of practice when they have no fucking clue how much or how little they actually do practice!
This.
It's also always ''cool'' to say you don't practice and it gets some pressure of you cause you already got your excuse to lose in place.
On June 27 2012 14:55 Gosi wrote: I like to compare the US Starcraft 2 scene with the english and football. :D
Alot of fans, good marketing and a big biased hype around domestic players.
But when it actually comes to the playing part, there is only a small percentage that can touch the foreign players. The leagues are dominated by foreigners, the top teams are carried by foreigners and when playing internationally their play are so behind compared to other nations.
* With foreigners in this post I mean Americans for the sc2 analogy and Englishmen for football. Not to be confused with Korea vs World.
So behind?, we just beat you 3-2, admittedly some of your argument is true though!!!!
On June 27 2012 19:37 CursedRich wrote: The US produces very good gamers at many games, for some reason at the moment SC2 is lagging a bit behind in this regard
I always thought of US being more console and fps gamers tbh.
On June 27 2012 14:55 Gosi wrote: I like to compare the US Starcraft 2 scene with the english and football. :D
Alot of fans, good marketing and a big biased hype around domestic players.
But when it actually comes to the playing part, there is only a small percentage that can touch the foreign players. The leagues are dominated by foreigners, the top teams are carried by foreigners and when playing internationally their play are so behind compared to other nations.
* With foreigners in this post I mean Americans for the sc2 analogy and Englishmen for football. Not to be confused with Korea vs World.
So behind?, we just beat you 3-2, admittedly some of your argument is true though!!!!
Yes, because we are so good at football, lol. What I ment was that you have created a culture where the norm is to work hard, run lots up and down the field and get rid of the ball as quick as possible. You don't learn to hold and play the ball as a kid, you learn to put your foot through it. The more technical, ball playing players gets rated in the youth teams because they are "too small" in favour of some 16 year old ox who's only talent is being big and killings legs in the penalty area. You could see the result of this in your game against Italy. You got completely raped at the midfield, lost every ball. It's an outdated playing style and it has no chance against the style Central Europe, South Europe and South America is playing today.
Germany had the same problem at the end of the 90's, early 2000. They did an inspection on their youth training and fix'd the flaws. See where they are today. It's time for England to do the same.
EPT
