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On August 24 2011 09:25 Duravi wrote:
No mention of storm drops during the templar discussion. "Cloak is almost never used in 1/1/1" while it has been used with some consistency for the last month in GSL and Puma even used it at IEM. "3 gate expand counters 1/1/1". The show is great and very entertaining, but there are 4 people on the show, 3 of whom are supposed to be progamers and stuff like this slides by? Credit to Incontrol for arguing about the cloak thing some, but I really didn't understand some of the conversation that went on during this show.
Maybe as professional players they have an understanding of timings that people who aren't professional players do not? Multiple professional players have suggested responses like a 3 gate expand, perhaps there is something to it. At the very least aside from a few translated tweets and korean netizens the consensus among professional players is "its killing Protoss players because in the current metagame they are too greedy." Obviously it's still a tricky all-in to hold, but most ridiculous all-ins can be tricky.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:24 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:21 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah I hate it when they don't agree with my specific imbalance complaint, those jerk people who get paid to be knowledgeable and play the game must be suddenly terrible!
Anyway, good show! I don't think anybody claimed to hate them dude. And yeah good show I... didn't say anyone did? But seriously, it's pretty funny to see peoples opinions on a players ability and whatnot suddenly shift because they disagree with something they said about a build.
If it were a discussion on Gotfrag about save rounds and someone said you should always buy MP5 second round, armor or not, the reaction would be about the same. That's basically what happened.
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When incontrol first started doing lessons in BW, he took payment on Pokerstars.
History lesson for everyone.
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On August 24 2011 09:27 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:24 w_Ender_w wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah I hate it when they don't agree with my specific imbalance complaint, those jerk people who get paid to be knowledgeable and play the game must be suddenly terrible!
Anyway, good show! I don't think anybody claimed to hate them dude. And yeah good show I... didn't say anyone did? But seriously, it's pretty funny to see peoples opinions on a players ability and whatnot suddenly shift because they disagree with something they said about a build. Oh sorry I misread your post. hahaha sorry and yeah its funny but all nerdrage is funny
Hah, its all good. I was being pretty facetious, I can understand where confusion can occur.
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I love this question, but the caller worded it poorly and it seemed to go in the wrong direction.
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On August 24 2011 09:27 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:24 w_Ender_w wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah I hate it when they don't agree with my specific imbalance complaint, those jerk people who get paid to be knowledgeable and play the game must be suddenly terrible!
Anyway, good show! I don't think anybody claimed to hate them dude. And yeah good show I... didn't say anyone did? But seriously, it's pretty funny to see peoples opinions on a players ability and whatnot suddenly shift because they disagree with something they said about a build. Oh sorry I misread your post. hahaha sorry and yeah its funny but all nerdrage is funny
What painuser said was wrong. Cloak has been used in 1/1/1 against protoss on a fairly consistent basis in GSL over the last month and was used at IEM as well. This is not arguing about someones opinion vs another persons. He made a claim that is demonstrably false.
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god damn incontrol....i can't watch this anymore. why does he act like a dick to fans and then pretend it's cool? herp derp, moving units in an RTS has always been a strat..... yeah all the questions aren't gonna be gems, just like all the words coming out of your mouth aren't gold.
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On August 24 2011 09:31 GrimReefer wrote:
god damn incontrol....i can't watch this anymore. why does he act like a dick to fans and then pretend it's cool? herp derp, moving units in an RTS has always been a strat..... yeah all the questions aren't gonna be gems, just like all the words coming out of your mouth aren't gold.
i think it's because he couldn't understand this guy at all
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:31 Whole wrote:
I love this question, but the caller worded it poorly and it seemed to go in the wrong direction.
he's nervous
and iNc was kind of a dick to him lol
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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A gem from PainUser regarding pathing!
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On August 24 2011 09:32 iNcontroL wrote:
MY WORDS ARE PLATINUM!
I was thinking more unobtanium.
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On August 24 2011 09:31 GrimReefer wrote:
god damn incontrol....i can't watch this anymore. why does he act like a dick to fans and then pretend it's cool? herp derp, moving units in an RTS has always been a strat..... yeah all the questions aren't gonna be gems, just like all the words coming out of your mouth aren't gold.
I thought it was pretty funny, guys should probably type their question into notepad so they don't get star struck.
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On August 24 2011 09:29 Jibba wrote:
If it were a discussion on Gotfrag about save rounds and someone said you should always buy MP5 second round, armor or not, the reaction would be about the same. That's basically what happened.
I don't see them as exactly the same, but thats not an argument for this thread I suppose. If you want to chat about whether or not I think what people are saying about the 1/1/1 is correct feel free to shoot me a PM :D
I was mostly commenting on how funny it is that people tune in to a show hoping to hear someone they ostensibly respect the opinion of agree with them (in this case about a potential imbalance) and then when they don't agree they suddenly deride the opinion and credentials of the pro player.
On August 24 2011 09:31 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:27 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:24 w_Ender_w wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah I hate it when they don't agree with my specific imbalance complaint, those jerk people who get paid to be knowledgeable and play the game must be suddenly terrible!
Anyway, good show! I don't think anybody claimed to hate them dude. And yeah good show I... didn't say anyone did? But seriously, it's pretty funny to see peoples opinions on a players ability and whatnot suddenly shift because they disagree with something they said about a build. Oh sorry I misread your post. hahaha sorry and yeah its funny but all nerdrage is funny What painuser said was wrong. Cloak has been used in 1/1/1 against protoss on a fairly consistent basis in GSL over the last month and was used at IEM as well. This is not arguing about someones opinion vs another persons. He made a claim that is demonstrably false.
I think he was saying that the most common and strongest/fastest 1/1/1 all-ins occur without cloak, and thats true. Getting cloak delays the all-in by a fair margin, and something he didn't mention but implied is that you can't reflexively get cloak after scouting with the first banshee and still hits a good timing.
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
The 'analysis' concerning 1/1/1 was a disgrace.
If they think that the Protoss not playing conservatively enough with his expansion is the issue, there is no reason to listen to them.
And mocking the discussion on TL or on forums. If you want to compare relative skill levels, where would we see a bigger skill gap? Between a random Master level player and PainUser or between PainUser and a Code A player? Because I am pretty sure that the skill gap is way, way bigger in the latter example.
I also like how djWHEAT had this as a big discussion point for the show but had no facts to contribute. Because there certainly are facts galore you could supply regardless of skill level, such as win ratios of PvT in general, win ratios of PvT in GSL, there are stats concerning 1/1/1 PvT in GSL. Just saying that it is due to a metagame switch cannot really constitute an argument at this point. I am not saying that it is imbalanced, but honestly the level of analysis, based on its merits rather than the name of the analysts, was so low I am pretty sure that notable members of this community that are far from professionals would be a lot more enlightening.
If this show is only to hear rather famous people light heartedly discuss game balance without actually giving any real thought, consideration or preperation that is cool enough. I would certainly listen to the show just to hear the respective opinions on events in the community; it is certainly the main reason I tune in to SotG. But the stated differential was supposedly to be more informative, and in that regards this topic was a definite failure.
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Oh man I love incontrol on state of the game and inside the game. His added personality is pretty much the only reason I watch it. People taking offense to incontrol's "bm" need to grow a pair and understand he isnt being serious.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:33 superarmy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:31 GrimReefer wrote:
god damn incontrol....i can't watch this anymore. why does he act like a dick to fans and then pretend it's cool? herp derp, moving units in an RTS has always been a strat..... yeah all the questions aren't gonna be gems, just like all the words coming out of your mouth aren't gold. I thought it was pretty funny, guys should probably type their question into notepad so they don't get star struck.
it was kinda funny but very douche move... painuser actually handled it better by trying to question what he meant by it. Some people get nervous or poor at speaking publicly.
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On August 24 2011 09:36 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:29 Jibba wrote:
If it were a discussion on Gotfrag about save rounds and someone said you should always buy MP5 second round, armor or not, the reaction would be about the same. That's basically what happened. I don't see them as exactly the same, but thats not an argument for this thread I suppose. If you want to chat about whether or not I think what people are saying about the 1/1/1 is correct feel free to shoot me a PM :D I was mostly commenting on how funny it is that people tune in to a show hoping to hear someone they ostensibly respect the opinion of agree with them (in this case about a potential imbalance) and then when they don't agree they suddenly deride the opinion and credentials of the pro player. Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:31 Duravi wrote:On August 24 2011 09:27 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:24 w_Ender_w wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 09:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Yeah I hate it when they don't agree with my specific imbalance complaint, those jerk people who get paid to be knowledgeable and play the game must be suddenly terrible!
Anyway, good show! I don't think anybody claimed to hate them dude. And yeah good show I... didn't say anyone did? But seriously, it's pretty funny to see peoples opinions on a players ability and whatnot suddenly shift because they disagree with something they said about a build. Oh sorry I misread your post. hahaha sorry and yeah its funny but all nerdrage is funny What painuser said was wrong. Cloak has been used in 1/1/1 against protoss on a fairly consistent basis in GSL over the last month and was used at IEM as well. This is not arguing about someones opinion vs another persons. He made a claim that is demonstrably false. I think he was saying that the most common and strongest/fastest 1/1/1 all-ins occur without cloak, and thats true. Getting cloak delays the all-in by a fair margin, and something he didn't mention but implied is that you can't reflexively get cloak after scouting with the first banshee and still hits a good timing.
no painuser talked about tvt and tvz 1-1-1 for god knows why and then proceeded to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about the build in question. That is why people are mad, not because he didn't agree with them.
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On August 24 2011 09:37 Porcelina wrote:
The 'analysis' concerning 1/1/1 was a disgrace.
If they think that the Protoss not playing conservatively enough with his expansion is the issue, there is no reason to listen to them.
And mocking the discussion on TL or on forums. If you want to compare relative skill levels, where would we see a bigger skill gap? Between a random Master level player and PainUser or between PainUser and a Code A player? Because I am pretty sure that the skill gap is way, way bigger in the latter example.
I also like how djWHEAT had this as a big discussion point for the show but had no facts to contribute. Because there certainly are facts galore you could supply regardless of skill level, such as win ratios of PvT in general, win ratios of PvT in GSL, there are stats concerning 1/1/1 PvT in GSL. Just saying that it is due to a metagame switch cannot really constitute an argument at this point. I am not saying that it is imbalanced, but honestly the level of analysis, based on its merits rather than the name of the analysts, was so low I am pretty sure that notable members of this community that are far from professionals would be a lot more enlightening.
If this show is only to hear rather famous people light heartedly discuss game balance without actually giving any real thought, consideration or preperation that is cool enough. I would certainly listen to the show just to hear the respective opinions on events in the community; it is certainly the main reason I tune in to SotG. But the stated differential was supposedly to be more informative, and in that regards this topic was a definite failure.
So you disagree with incontrol's opinion as a progamer about a build he sees on ladder a lot and therefore come to the conlusion that the show sucks. A bit of a kneejerk reaction, no?
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EPT
