EPT[D] What SC2 is missing? - Page 46
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Rodiel3
France1158 Posts
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brownthing
United States189 Posts
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longdivision
United States170 Posts
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
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GutsSC2
United States45 Posts
It seems like in either case, you just click on the screen on what units you want to kill. Is smart casting the way it highlights the units it will effect? | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
What is SC2 missing? Abilities like larva inject, creep spreadin, chronoboost and mules that should have a tremendous impact on the game. Because the UI has been smoothed out so much since BW, professional players need something else to occupy their apm to make the game a serious challenge. Professional BW players can play with 300 apm and use every action for a non-spamming purpose. And this insane level of mastery at BW made watching it that much more incredible. Watching pro SC2 matches differs greatly from this and has become - in my opinion - far more boring as a spectator. + Show Spoiler [tsl] + Very rarely do we get games like Boxer and Mondragon from this weekend's TSL. Constant aggression, swarming attacks, multitasking. This kind of play is what keeps SC2 exciting. Too many games either A) get decided by early pressure or rushing, i.e. 2rax or 4gate, and B) too many games, particularly with Protoss, become a sit-back-and-wait-for-ideal-army games, then one clash and the game is over. This does not make for dynamic or impressive play. Point A leads me to one issue I feel resides in SC2: units deal too much damage. Rushes and aggression has become insanely powerful in SC2. Units killing other units too easily is something that has changed everything about the game. Setting up contain positions or defensive lines doesn't function well at all when they just get slaughtered. This also influences the notion of map control. Starcraft II has no kind of situation where a small amount of units can hold against a large amount of units. Even siege tanks have become nerfed to the point where it's possible to just bumrush them (Protoss gained about 4 methods of dealing with siege tanks since BW, Terran can just mass marines as they only take 35 damage, only Zerg has similarities to BW style retreat-until-you-can-kill play). Coupled with units killing each other so quickly is units being so quick and accessible. Protoss is the most glaring example of both deadly and quick. [note: I am not balance whining about Protoss. I am discussing how Protoss mechanics effect the flow of SC2 games.]Warpgates are a concept RTS games have never considered before: you can now make your units anywhere on the map. Not only do you completely eliminate the idea of a defender's advantage, the beginning Protoss units have such high synergy that 4gate sweeps across the ladder like a plague. This only continues with the colossus. Imagine If reavers in BW dealed 1/3 the damage, but traveled at the speed of gateway units and could float on top of dragoon lines. (Also scarabs don't bug. Ever. lol) This makes the Protoss deathball insanely powerful, but that it sacrifices nearly nothing in mobility. So what is Starcraft II missing? The ability to defend, in general, is something I find lacking. This is most evident with Zerg, with only spine crawlers as a semi-powerful defender. There are no lurkers, no darkswarm, there's fungal growth but the utility from one dark swarm for a Zerg player is infinitely more than the utility from a FG. For Zerg, some really defense-focused unit would greatly aid in Zerg survivability. Terran has great versatility on all fronts and feels like the most fleshed-out race, but it requires some kind of apm-intensive activity to make playing Terran more impressive. Protoss also needs some kind of apm-intensive activity as well that makes sitting on bases making a 200/200 death army a challenging task. Carrier viability would also be a wonderful way to spice up Protoss play. Units also in general have to either deal less damage or move around slower. What BW did beautifully was give mobile units less damage and powerful units less mobility. This kind of gameplay is unfortunately lost in SC2. | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
On April 18 2011 10:37 Maelthorn wrote: I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but could some one explain to me what made Psi-Storm more effective and harder to use in BW? It seems like in either case, you just click on the screen on what units you want to kill. Is smart casting the way it highlights the units it will effect? In BW, if you have X HT selected and cast storm on a spot, there will be X storms on that spot, whereas in SC2, only one storm will be cast at a time. Because storm damage does not overlap and smart cast didn't exist, you had to individually cast storms in BW. In BW, this mechanic has the side effect of letting storm do more damage over greater area without being imbalanced because it is much harder to cast storm and micro HT. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
i think a better question would be which bw protoss matchup lacks this dynamic. | ||
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Footler
United States560 Posts
On April 18 2011 09:57 LaLuSh wrote: Implementing moving shot wouldn't magically fix everything though. But it would be a step in the right direction. There are many other game design features that I personally believe indirectly affect balance and gameplay. I don't think it can ever be fixed by merely tweaking unit stats. Implementing more complex and/or volatile units could start to contribute. As another posted said - "there needs to be purposely overpowered units unless microed against." Kind of like storm in BW. I think it is very possible for SC2 to develop into that game that makes your jaw drop at what players can do. If the right units are implemented in the expansions, imbalances are fixed and players stay dedicated to figuring the game out. The thing that worries me the most is the "Blizzard adding the right units." Part of me wants to seriously believe they purposely withheld units (even though they said they didn't, I don't believe them!) in favor of attracting more players at launch. | ||
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GutsSC2
United States45 Posts
On April 18 2011 10:40 trifecta wrote: In BW, if you have X HT selected and cast storm on a spot, there will be X storms on that spot, whereas in SC2, only one storm will be cast at a time. Because storm damage does not overlap and smart cast didn't exist, you had to individually cast storms in BW. In BW, this mechanic has the side effect of letting storm do more damage over greater area without being imbalanced because it is much harder to cast storm and micro HT. Ahhh I see. ... Imagine trying to cast Forcefields with BW mechanics. In any case, after reading a few posts, the OP's and Lalush's, I believe I can agree that the mechanics of SC2 determine wins and losses more than the actual skill of the player. | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
Heart of the Swarm is going to be released. I hope blizzard makes necessary additions. | ||
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By.Fantasy
Thailand123 Posts
On April 18 2011 10:37 Maelthorn wrote: I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but could some one explain to me what made Psi-Storm more effective and harder to use in BW? It seems like in either case, you just click on the screen on what units you want to kill. Is smart casting the way it highlights the units it will effect? Yes, Its harder in SC:BW actually since most of the time they get sniped or killed and you have to individually select templars and click storm while everything else is happening... In my experience when I storm vs a terran my army die while I concentrate to storm and when I try to retreat I notice my army is already dead since I concentrate on my templars or I concentrate on my army and not get any storms.. I know SC2 has potential. It will probably better or good after the 2 expansions have been done! I know it! I believe in blizzard!! | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 18 2011 10:45 mahnini wrote: i think a better question would be which bw protoss matchup lacks this dynamic. A even better question would be either 1. Why did PvP have it? 2. If it didn't, why was PvP still good? | ||
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
Watch as Bisu does this while Im trying to get 2 control groups of dragoons to go up a ramp. I just dont get that feeling when watchign Sc2, even though the players are obviously much better than I am. | ||
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viletomato
Canada277 Posts
This makes me very very sad. I have been a fan of BW for many years and to see SC2 like this doesn't give a me a lot of hope for SC2 esports. I would say max 4 years then a painful death. | ||
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Footler
United States560 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:18 viletomato wrote: The sad thing is even with all this brilliant knowledge, Blizzard will probably never change it's design. They will tweak and maybe add units but the core of SC2 is flawed... I just don't see how the core design of SC2 can be fixed in the expansions. I mean to really fix the problems, they would have to make a complete overhaul of the game something I think would be too extreme of the change for them to attempt. *Sigh*, I just wish they had known these things earlier. This is what you get when you hire someone from Command and Conquer and a game that is designed around something that looks cool but doesn't really work. This makes me very very sad. I have been a fan of BW for many years and to see SC2 like this doesn't give a me a lot of hope for SC2 esports. I would say max 4 years then a painful death. The solution lies in future units and patch adjustments as well as player discovery. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:12 Louuster wrote:Watch as Bisu does this while Im trying to get 2 control groups of dragoons to go up a ramp. See, here's my big beef with a lot of BW purists. Why can't a game be competitive while also being fun? If a protoss gets his HTs(and some army, of course) in a bit of a concave around a Terran bio-ball, and is storming the ball, then storming the place the ball runs to, requiring the Terran to juke and jive and split while doing EMPs, that's exciting to watch and also really fun. It may be exciting to watch Bisu control these dumb-ass dragoons, but that doesn't make it less frustrating to try and get them to go up a ramp. There's this idea that the only way a game can be good for pro level games is if it's bad for low-level games, and I don't see it that way at all. | ||
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viletomato
Canada277 Posts
On April 18 2011 11:21 Footler wrote: The solution lies in future units and patch adjustments as well as player discovery. You know that is what I thought before, but I believe that just won't cut it. There is something deeper than just units and tweaking. Things like moving shot, defenders advantage, zerg econ being supersaturated (stuff that Lalush said) and of course clumping... these are game design elements that probably won't ever be changed. Though a unit like a lurker would help, but it just doesn't work well in a SC2 universe with units like mauraders that can just stim take damage and walk as in as nothing was there. In BW Lurkers would stop you dead in your tracks if you didn't have good enough micro because they obliterated marines like no tomorrow. and discovery,...its been said a billion times no amount of discovery would change these core design flaws. | ||
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Rodiel3
France1158 Posts
This makes me very very sad. I have been a fan of BW for many years and to see SC2 like this doesn't give a me a lot of hope for SC2 esports. I would say max 4 years then a painful death. naaa u go way too far, there is lot of way to tweak SC2 | ||
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Razith
Canada431 Posts
My favorite match ups is TvT. I enjoy it simply because the pace is completely different from all the other match ups. I can cut off sections of the map with proper siege tank lines and turrets allowing me to secure more bases and take map control. It will take a significant force or some trickery to break through sections of my D, but its not undo-able. I really enjoy its positional tactics and how there generally are multiple fights going on around the map. Grouping a bunch of units and rushing my tanks is going to get you annihilate. However, while this is what I love about TvT, this is exactly what the majority of Terran players hate. The stress of managing multiple fronts and your economy over 30 minutes is tiring, and they would rather just clash armies and see who comes out on top. My next favorite match up is TvZ. I enjoy it because once again I'm trying to cut off sections of the map with heavy siege tank lines, turrets and bunkers. I try to quickly get my front to reach the choke of their main and natural so anything that wants out has to get by me. At this point I can abuse drops and kill anything outside of the contain while keeping everything inside the contain. At the same time zerg is doing everything in their power to slow me down. Mutalisk harass and nydus worms harass my economy to try and stop me from getting the contain. Then there is the contain break with zerglings and banelings which is a ton of fun to watch. If they managed to get me to pack up and leave, they're free to expand and swarm my contains relentlessly for the rest of the game. Its a race for me to contain zerg, expand behind it, then finish them off. For them its a challenge to force my contain back, expand and tech up enough that contains lose their strength considerably when ultralisks and broodlords come onto the field. My least favorite match up is TvP. The pace of this match up is completely different from the previous two. The protoss army is fast and warp-gate technology allows warp-ins to any powerfield, it makes contains and cutting off sections of the map almost irrelevant. Collosus with their speed, range and cliff walk also takes away from positional advantage because their siege unit can easily just walk to wherever it feels like and instantly start shooting aoe damage at 9 range. The only way to combat this mobility and strength is to have an equally mobile army and try to take potshots at the Protoss army before engaging to balance the fact I have a weaker aoe (EMP). The maps generally are too large and the protoss army is so strong that if I try to control sections of the map with tanks, I'll be spread too thin and they can easily tear apart my army. And since their army is so powerful together and extremely mobile, they'll avoid my contain and hit wherever I'm the weakest with their whole army. So that's the perspective of this game from a Terran SC2 player (Diamond league). I can also see why ZvZ and PvP can be a bore as its just deathball vs deathball. Theres no map control, its just keeping an eye on where their army is because it can move to another place in almost seconds. If the game were to move to a more positional, map control based play there would have to be a few changes in my eyes: The game already has strong 'squads', as you may put it. MMM for Terran, gateway units + collosus for Protoss, Roach/Hydra or muta/ling/baneling for zerg. The similarity in all these is that they are strong and are mobile. The game lacks 'territory control' units. Terran have siege tanks, but protoss and zerg have nothing. On top of this, the 'squads' listed above if invested into 200/200 are strong enough to take on the siege tank units that Terran may have used to set up for territory control. I think this is where the problem lies in the game. Squadrons of mobile units can easily overtake any sort of territory control play that Terran sets up with tanks, and zerg and protoss don't have any territory control! Blizzard should add more territory control units or buff/change units to enhance their territory control, ensure that they're immobile compared to 'squads' so they can't run across the map, setup in 1 second and be unbeatable. They should also dish out severe damage to the 'squads' when in position, but as well can be destroyed when out of position / moving. I think then we would see a more in depth game beyond deathball vs deathball. Somethings I think that could be changed to produce this effect: -Create an upgrade or simply change banelings so that when they explode underground, their damage radius is increased. They could then increase burrow time for banelings. Banelings can now blow up huge squads moving into a territory, but can no longer roll up to a spot and instantly burrow; setup time is required. It will require a long-range ground weapon or air units plus detection to force the banelings up / move them. Or bring back lurkers. -Buff siege tank damage (maybe?) and increase the siege mode deploy time. This will ensure that any squad that runs into a tank not in siege mode can either run out of range, or run right up to the tank if its not deployed in siege. However, if in siege mode, its going to require some micro to break. -Change collosus so its no longer the mobile siege unit it is, but rather a squadron unit that is effective at fighting bio balls that generally annihilate protoss units. Can be done by reducing range as well as reducing health and cost. -Give protoss some sort of territory control unit. Never played BW so I don't know what this is. Could be HTs w/ KA but that would be easily countered by EMP. Don't take these ideas too seriously, they're only suggestions / ideas that could lead towards a more in depth game. I think with the changes above, you'd be a little skeptical to move out blindly. You also can't max just territory control units or squad units, as the former will leave you unable to really attack efficiently, and the latter will get annihilated by any territory control. It will require a balance of the two. Comments? | ||
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