I am very surprised that people have not brought these information to TL ever since they were revealed last night. Well, here it is!!!
In an exclusive reveal to WellPlayed, the NASL has announced the official schedule for its debut season as well as the prize distribution for players and an infographic detailing the map pools for each matchup.
The season will kick off on Tuesday, April 12th with a total of five matchups. Pre-show begins at 5:30pm PST/8:30pm EST. European fans will be able to catch a rebroadcast that starts at 5:30pm for the UK, 6:30pm for Central Europe and 7:30 for Eastern Europe.
The first day's matches consist of Moon vs. Grubby, ViBE vs. TLO, Artosis vs. Sheth, Fenix vs. KiWiKaKi and Rainbow vs. Morrow.
Each division will play on the same map pool for a full week, and then rotate to a different map pool on the next. Division 1, for example, will begin with Terminus RE, Crossfire SE and Backwater Gulch and then move to a pool consisting of Shattered Temple, Terminus RE and Crossfire SE for the second week. Full information on map pools can be found in the graphic below.
Prize pool distribution, which has only been speculated about up until now, has been revealed as well. The overall winner for the season will take home $50,000. The second place finisher will earn $25,000, third will take $10,000, and fourth earns $5,000. Those players placing 5th-8th will get $1,500 and 9th-16th receive $500. All players will receive an additional $500 for attending the finals.
Source: [url=http://wellplayed.org/forum/122/thread/390/show]http://wellplayed.org/forum Edit 1:Table of comparison with GSL Edit 2: Clarification: GSL take place over 3 weeks while NASL over more than 10 weeks.
Nice! At least this image is a bit easier to follow than that last one regarding formats :D! Decent maps too, and can't argue with the prize distribution~
On April 07 2011 12:40 Butcherski wrote: typhon peaks and backwater gulch are fucking horrible blizzard maps ... why would you go ahead and ruin a perfectly good league
Typhon's not bad, really. Backwater Gulch seems kinda terrible and I'm surprised they picked it. Wonder how much consultation was done with the players, there. I also don't get the point behind the map pool rotation, but hey, at least this stuff was finally worked out. Other than Backwater it's a good pool and we have an absolute shitload of content here.
The prize pool hurts for the players, I'm sure, but tournament winnings are always going to be awful for most people trying to make a living off of them. Most likely in any given SC2 scene only a very small amount of people will be able to make it their day job if they have to live off of placing well in tournaments. If NASL seriously adjusts the prize pool to something that looks more like a real paycheck for all of the players, it limits the hype around the tournament, even though it helps the competitors. Basically it's just a bad situation we're in where we don't have a lot of player salaries going around.
On April 07 2011 12:40 Butcherski wrote: typhon peaks and backwater gulch are fucking horrible blizzard maps ... why would you go ahead and ruin a perfectly good league
Damn agree, they both have super narrow choke for Colossus or tanks push
Idra made a pretty good point last night on Sotg about the money stepoffs. Its a really big difference in places. So much money to go around, I like the way they are doing the maps too. All this little bit of information being release before the 12th is great!
Colour me disappointed. People have complained that GSL is top heavy, but it happens more often than and is less top heavy than the NASL.
Edit: DERP didn't read "All players will receive an additional $500 for attending the finals." It's much more reasonable now (though attending the finals will likely cost the full 500 for some, or more for koreans.)
Ok giving top plays some extra bonus is alright, but it's very skewed towards top 4.
I like the rotating map pool, even if they have a few questionable maps in it (haven't really seen many games played on them though to see how they'll play.)
One problem I have weith NASL group play is if you are half way through season, lost everything with no real chance of making top 16, why bother training hard for specific matchups for rest of season? Probably better training for other tournaments.
I'm not saying people will throw games, but might not train as hard as they otherwise would.
Because the last three sums are given to all the players who get like 5-8th then 9-16th and then 17-32nd I believe. So everyone who is 17-32 gets 1330$
The two top players taking 3/4 of the prize pool is pretty shocking... especially when the prize pool is that large. Also I'm not sure if back water gulch and crossfire are league ready to be honest..
Prize distribution is bad, diff map pool breeds inconsistency. The map diversity and the glory of having a $50k 1rd prize is good for spectators though.
On April 07 2011 13:08 Alejandrisha wrote: The two top players taking 3/4 of the prize pool is pretty shocking... especially when the prize pool is that large. Also I'm not sure if back water gulch and crossfire are league ready to be honest..
NASL said they'd use the maps that the community was pushing for the most, I had figured they'd follow suit from the GSL and MLG map pools :/
I hope the prize pool gets redistributed for the next seasons. At Mlg dallas total prize pool was 14k and 5th place won 1k, at an event with ~7x the prize pool the 5th place money didn't change almost at all.
I guess its not a big deal to spectators but it seems unfair to the players that don't place in the top 4, which will without doubt be very very difficult. If ESPORTS continues to take off im sure it will level out eventually though.
i really like what they are doing for e-sports only concern is that they were able to figure out a way to stream to 50k people at once and not end up like mlg. Gogo NASL!
On April 07 2011 13:14 bean183 wrote: I hope the prize pool gets redistributed for the next seasons. At Mlg dallas total prize pool was 14k and 5th place won 1k, at an event with ~7x the prize pool the 5th place money didn't change almost at all.
I guess its not a big deal to spectators but it seems unfair to the players that don't place in the top 4, which will without doubt be very very difficult. If ESPORTS continues to take off im sure it will level out eventually though.
Yeah I'm not too worried about it just yet. The scene is just getting to this level now so I'm sure future tournaments will learn that size of prize pool matters more than how much money #1 is taking home
On April 07 2011 12:57 prodiG wrote: not a single iCCup map? did the best game of MLG Dallas not teach the community enough
The pool was probably decided before MLG happened. Though I remember on SOTG when diamond asked a question about chronoboost JP introduced him as the head of Iccup and Incontrol said "oh shit." So I really doubt NASL will ever want to use an iccup map he probably wasn't a fan of testbug being at MLG.
My thoughts on the money is that given NASL is a 3 month season and the prize money is so stacked, yet for the amount of content it'll be putting out not the money is not necessarily that excessive or extraordinary, players who aren't seriously contending for a top 4 spot better hope that NASL doesn't monopolise the scene anytime soon because for them the real money still lies in the myriad smaller tournaments that NASL could affect.
The maps are ehhh, whatever. I know Backwater and Typhon aren't super popular, but they also aren't super-explored at high levels either.
I like the top heavy prize pool for the first year. If we still have capital for next year, making it better for the players should be the #1 priority? what do u think?
Why have back water gulch ? Sure blizzard fixed it up a bit with the ramp being closer to the expo but the map itself with the 2 backrocks is questionable
Other than look it looks like the tournament will go well so long as you don't pull an MLG
I'm disappointed in the map choice. I hope Xeris explains why they chose some of the worse Blizzard maps. Also, is Metalopolis and others like it going prevent close spawns like at MLG?
uh update the op with the fact that GSL's prize money is prize covering a month of tournament, not 3 months like the NASL. if you wanna compare them, compare them accurately.
On April 07 2011 13:34 hmmm... wrote: uh update the op with the fact that GSL's prize money is prize covering a month of tournament, not 3 months like the NASL. if you wanna compare them, compare them accurately.
Please read the whole OP before posting.
Edit 2: Clarification: GSL take place over 3 weeks while NASL over more than 10 weeks.
The prize distribution makes the tournament so unforgiving for the players. Considering it's a minimum 9 week commitment they should probably spread the wealth a bit more for the second season.
I mean, qualifying for the open tournament will be pretty brutal, there should be some sunshine at the end of that rainbow ...
On April 07 2011 13:31 Zeroxk wrote: Can someone explain this part:
All players will receive an additional $500 for attending the finals.
I don't get what this means at all
Travel money, basically.
Not so sure about that. They specify that the players receive the money for showing up, but for most of these players, it's the teams paying for travel.
I think it's more like an appearance fee... but honestly not sure what it is exactly.
Prizepool is a really big issue for the players. There are so many good competing players out there, who didn't get more than 1k in Prizes in the last half year. So if you win one big tournament you are good (moneywise) and else you can probably barely cover your expenses as a progamer (if at all). It would be good for esports if more progamers can actually make a good living and therefore prizepools should be A LOT more even distributed.
Even GSL pays 1.3k just for participating in Code S. Thats only 1 day (2 if you count up/down matches). In NASL you have to play 9 matches and 35 players will get nothing? Thats not how a proleague should be.
My take: Eliminated in Groupstage: 750$ Ro16: 1500$ Ro8: 2500$ 4th: 5000$ 3rd: 7500$ 2nd: 12500$ 1st: 27250$
On April 07 2011 12:57 prodiG wrote: not a single iCCup map? did the best game of MLG Dallas not teach the community enough
The pool was probably decided before MLG happened. Though I remember on SOTG when diamond asked a question about chronoboost JP introduced him as the head of Iccup and Incontrol said "oh shit." So I really doubt NASL will ever want to use an iccup map he probably wasn't a fan of testbug being at MLG.
NASL was aware of Testbug being in MLG before their pool was decided, I personally rallied for Testbug, sorry guys, guess it did not work !
I like the pool but Backwater Gulch stands out like a sore thumb. I am not sure I follow the logic for it, but at least the rest of the maps rock!
On April 07 2011 13:44 00Visor wrote: Prizepool is a really big issue for the players. There are so many good competing players out there, who didn't get more than 1k in Prizes in the last half year. So if you win one big tournament you are good (moneywise) and else you can probably barely cover your expenses as a progamer (if at all). It would be good for esports if more progamers can actually make a good living and therefore prizepools should be A LOT more even distributed.
Even GSL pays 1.3k just for participating in Code S. Thats only 1 day (2 if you count up/down matches). In NASL you have to play 9 matches and 35 players will get nothing? Thats not how a proleague should be.
My take: Eliminated in Groupstage: 750$ Ro16: 1500$ Ro8: 2500$ 4th: 5000$ 3rd: 7500$ 2nd: 12500$ 1st: 27250$
Well the basic answer to the stability issue of players' incomes is that sponsors of teams (and of specific players) ought to be providing it, not prize money from leagues. What leagues need to do is get the big numbers of viewers tuning in and give the players a chance to promote their sponsors when they win (let them mention sponsors interviews, let them show their jerseys in video interviews, etc). If the league isn't guaranteeing a stable income for its players, it needs to let players' sponsors get some major face time.
I'm sorry, this will sound very rude, but while the EU rebroadcast times are very very nice, the map pool and prize distribution utterly disappoint me. Having refined and top notch iCCup community maps at hand (Match Point, Pawn Re, Testbug, Neo Enigma, you name it), we will still be stuck with Blizzard maps. Blizzard, the ones who admitted that their maps were not created for tournament play and that tournaments should use their own maps/community maps. The chosing of Tal'Darim, Terminus and Crevasse deserves a lot of praise, we see these maps being successfully used in tournaments since some time now. But, please, please, consider reviewing the map pool once again in order to truly be the 'pioneers' of huge western esport events; at least take into consideration to eliminate close spawns on Metalopolis. The prize distribution is extremly uneven. If NASL wants to 'think big', compare yourself to other leagues. Take the ESL Pro series, for example: Group phase, big offline finals. The players in the German EPS receive 100€ (143$) for each bo3-win in the group phase. It has been previously announced that there will be rebroadcast times for EU, since the original airing of the games will be at NA primetime. Now the times are released, and I appreciate these times, they are well chosen.
I disklike the prize distribution, it's too top-heavy for my taste. NASL said they wanted to facilitate professional eSports in the West. If the payoff was a flatter curve, more players could live off of gaming. Like this, only very few can win enough money to make it worthwile. I understand that having a large first place prize adds to the hype, but I don't like such extreme prize differences in a game that is still volatile and evolving.
As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
Comparing SC2 to tennis is a bit... optimistic. How many players are sponsored enough to play professionally? How much do they earn? You never get enough information on that because of non disclosure agreements and stuff.
ofcource NASL will be an amazing league since almost everything sounds just great, but with the mappool I really have a bit a problem.
soo many Blizzard maps (the good old ones we used to play on for almost a year now) und the not very good new ones. I really thought nasl will pick like ESL a few ICCUP maps like neo enigma, testbug etc. Too bad :/
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
That's nice for an established sport that's been around for years with a sponsorship system that's been in place to support people going into the sport as a career but Starcraft 2 is not quite there yet. Expecting sponsors to pick up the slack is going to be foolish unless you want your player pool to be limited to the few most popular players :|
GSL ended up redistributing their prize pool after the first three seasons (although I'm sure most of that was due in part to the Code A/Code S system) and it'd be nice to see NASL do the same after the first season or two
I wish it wasn't so top heavy, but I think it was done for the shock value of 50k first place. Hopefully first season does well, and they can get some more money and sponsors into the league.
Rotation of the maps are exciting too, even if some of the maps are questionable. I'd like the map that MMA and MVP played on to be in the map pool though, it made for some entertaining games so far.
On April 07 2011 16:11 Scorch wrote: I disklike the prize distribution, it's too top-heavy for my taste. NASL said they wanted to facilitate professional eSports in the West. If the payoff was a flatter curve, more players could live off of gaming. Like this, only very few can win enough money to make it worthwile. I understand that having a large first place prize adds to the hype, but I don't like such extreme prize differences in a game that is still volatile and evolving.
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote:No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc. The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
Comparing SC2 to tennis, we are there already? Okay, then. But you are aware that what you just stated about prize money is completely wrong? Players do indeed live off of Ro16 and Ro32 results, even in the smaller challenger tournaments. I am not saying 'go, make it happen'. After all, you are just one tournament or one series of tournaments, compared to the 10 weekly ATP tourneys all over the world. It's just that these kind of replies makes me, as a spectator, feel that the NASL might be resistant to any input.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
On April 07 2011 16:43 dcemuser wrote: No, players don't live off their performances.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
The defense of a lot of the top-heavy prize pools include comparisons to other sports, but how often do you have to hear about professionals in other sports having to supplement their income by coaching or broadcasting their practice games?
I just think depending on sponsors to fulfill the non-medal placers in tournaments or leagues is foolish as it seems like it'd just lead to getting more individual sponsors of the popular or top performing players rather than more sponsors for the teams, especially considering the only NA team league is GCPL (and is that continuing even?)
On April 07 2011 16:43 dcemuser wrote: No, players don't live off their performances.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
The defense of a lot of the top-heavy prize pools include comparisons to other sports, but how often do you have to hear about professionals in other sports having to supplement their income by coaching or broadcasting their practice games?
I just think depending on sponsors to fulfill the non-medal placers in tournaments or leagues is foolish as it seems like it'd just lead to getting more individual sponsors of the popular or top performing players rather than more sponsors for the teams, especially considering the only NA team league is GCPL (and is that continuing even?)
No, I agree with you. I actually think that the horribly lopsided prize pools are a bad idea and they should be better distributed.
However, players do not make the majority of their income from tournament appearances. Several people in this thread were trying to argue that.
I think spreading the prize pool out would increase the quality of life for pro-gamers everywhere. The skill level is so close in SC2 that a guy having a good day can rock somebody equally skilled having a bad day and then take home thousands of dollars more than him.
It doesn't make sense for one person to live in luxury, and 15 others to live in near-poverty.
On April 07 2011 16:43 dcemuser wrote: No, players don't live off their performances.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
The defense of a lot of the top-heavy prize pools include comparisons to other sports, but how often do you have to hear about professionals in other sports having to supplement their income by coaching or broadcasting their practice games?
I just think depending on sponsors to fulfill the non-medal placers in tournaments or leagues is foolish as it seems like it'd just lead to getting more individual sponsors of the popular or top performing players rather than more sponsors for the teams, especially considering the only NA team league is GCPL (and is that continuing even?)
Compare SC2 to other niche sports and you will find that, yes, in fact sponsorships and coaching do play a large role in providing a sustainable living. The purpose of the lopsided prize pool is obvious. It's so the NASL can say their winner gets more money than the GSL winner.
On April 07 2011 16:43 dcemuser wrote: No, players don't live off their performances.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
The defense of a lot of the top-heavy prize pools include comparisons to other sports, but how often do you have to hear about professionals in other sports having to supplement their income by coaching or broadcasting their practice games?
I just think depending on sponsors to fulfill the non-medal placers in tournaments or leagues is foolish as it seems like it'd just lead to getting more individual sponsors of the popular or top performing players rather than more sponsors for the teams, especially considering the only NA team league is GCPL (and is that continuing even?)
Compare SC2 to other niche sports and you will find that, yes, in fact sponsorships and coaching do play a large role in providing a sustainable living. The purpose of the lopsided prize pool is obvious. It's so the NASL can say their winner gets more money than the GSL winner.
But does it really sound so much better to say "he won 50,000$" than "he won the 100,000$ league"?
Well, since it is backed by Blizzard I assume the map pool had something to do with it. Backwater isn't as terrible as it was before 1.3, Typhon is a great map...as long as Slag pits stays the hell away from the pool then it should be good.
I hope close positions is eliminated from both ST and Meta. Favors Terran far too much in TvZ/P, as well as Protoss ZvP. Also makes ZvZ and PvP more ugly than they already are
Fine with the prize distribution, fine with the map pool other than Backwater. Wish Testbug was in there, but it's cool. Super excited for the NASL cause I get to watch SC2 after my classes on weekdays!
Do not get why they would include backwater in there, it's actually in three of the map groups while Metalopolis is only in two. Would have loved for prize distribution to be a little more even but I expected nothing else than what we got. Overall looks ok.
On April 07 2011 16:43 dcemuser wrote: No, players don't live off their performances.
Tyler and Incontrol have said this on State of the Game, and ROOTDestiny revealed his finances on reddit - he makes $3,500 a month from streaming ads and another $1,500 a month from coaching. Tournament wins play a very, very small part in MOST players salaries.
I mean all of the tournaments (GSL, NASL, MLG) have horribly lopsided prize pools. Obviously nobody is sustaining themselves on the $500 they get from an MLG once every 2 or so months for the entire year...
Sponsors, stream revenue, and coaching pays for 90%+ of what players make unless your name is "oGsMC" or "SlayersBoxer".
The defense of a lot of the top-heavy prize pools include comparisons to other sports, but how often do you have to hear about professionals in other sports having to supplement their income by coaching or broadcasting their practice games?
I just think depending on sponsors to fulfill the non-medal placers in tournaments or leagues is foolish as it seems like it'd just lead to getting more individual sponsors of the popular or top performing players rather than more sponsors for the teams, especially considering the only NA team league is GCPL (and is that continuing even?)
Compare SC2 to other niche sports and you will find that, yes, in fact sponsorships and coaching do play a large role in providing a sustainable living. The purpose of the lopsided prize pool is obvious. It's so the NASL can say their winner gets more money than the GSL winner.
But does it really sound so much better to say "he won 50,000$" than "he won the 100,000$ league"?
One tournament probably doesn't matter much, but telling people a guy made $X00,000 last year playing pro starcraft turns a lot more heads than sayin X00 progamers make a sustainable living. You don't get those kind of numbers without a large portion of the prize money going to the winner.
I think the prize money is fine so long as the players are ok with it... I am more concerned with the huge amount of content then with the prize distribution. Already on long GSL days I don't have time to watch every game, GSL + NASL + IGN is going to kill me.
I guess that's a pretty awesome problem to have though. 12 years ago did you ever imagine yourself saying 'There is too much professional Starcraft on, FML'?
5th ->32nd place get shafted for playing tonnes of games over a longer period thus less chances to place higher, more pressure to not play weekly tourneys as if you don't place top8 you wasted so much time.
I think GSL distribution is more benifical for players as a whole and NASL is actually harmful to player even with a big pot.
On April 07 2011 17:46 Razvy wrote: I think the prize money is fine so long as the players are ok with it... I am more concerned with the huge amount of content then with the prize distribution. Already on long GSL days I don't have time to watch every game, GSL + NASL + IGN is going to kill me.
I guess that's a pretty awesome problem to have though. 12 years ago did you ever imagine yourself saying 'There is too much professional Starcraft on, FML'?
What do you mean?
Of course players aren't "okay" with it. Ask any progamer, besides like oGsMC, and they would say that they prefer less top heavy prizes. But it's for the players, it's for the hype of the tournament.
Every thing about NASL is shaping up to be fantastic Except for Backwater Gulch (instead of Shakuras!), but I'm sure they did it on purpose to make Idra rage and add more drama to the competition x)
The lack of iCCup maps really surprises and disappoints me. iCCup Enigma for example I think is one of the best maps yet (along with GSL Dual Sight)
I really consider map selection one of, if not the, most important issues regarding a league of this size, so it would have been nice to have seen some map choices that I, as an avid SC2 fan/amateur analyst, find more agreeable.
Imo Typhoon Peaks and Crossfire are rather mediocre maps and Backwater Gulch is pretty terrible and no other tournament is using it...
I thought NASL would choose maps that are used in tournaments anyway. So why Typhoon and Backwater which are not used and not Testbug which is used in MLG and pretty much every important weekly EU tournament?
In my opinion rather pick a map that hasn't been used that much like iCCup Neo Enigma (now used by ESL) or Dual Sight/Xel'Naga Fortress... or any iCCup/GSL map and not Backwater : /
edit: Forgot to say: Why not Terminus SE? Are you using no close spawn on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple? And I just realized... why no Shakuras? O_O
On April 07 2011 17:46 Razvy wrote: I think the prize money is fine so long as the players are ok with it... I am more concerned with the huge amount of content then with the prize distribution. Already on long GSL days I don't have time to watch every game, GSL + NASL + IGN is going to kill me.
I guess that's a pretty awesome problem to have though. 12 years ago did you ever imagine yourself saying 'There is too much professional Starcraft on, FML'?
What do you mean?
Of course players aren't "okay" with it. Ask any progamer, besides like oGsMC, and they would say that they prefer less top heavy prizes. But it's for the players, it's for the hype of the tournament.
I meant that the prize money doesn't affect me by one iota, plain and simple I ONLY care about the quality of games. Sure its fun to tell my friends who aren't into SC that some guy is going to win 50k playing video games but i'll trade that in a second for a month or two of good games.
We can theorycraft all day on what's better, many small prizes or a few big ones, but I don't think we in the community really have a say in it. If the 'best' players don't want to participate, because they disagree with the prize payouts, they wont. Without the best players then the NASL will either fold or revise the payouts to keep them.... its a problem that solves itself.
On April 07 2011 18:41 Angelbelow wrote: did backwater turn into a good map? Serious question cause I know they changed it during the latest patch. I still have it vetoed so I dont know.
If it still sucks, thats a laughable decision when there are plenty of better maps out there.
It's certainly better with the changes to the ramp, which now points towards the natural instead of the wide ramp below it.
I quite enjoy it, but then again I'm not super picky about having maps that are ideal for my race and have at least 2 safe expansions for "macro games". Variety is good.
Aw, Terminus RE is somewhat of a broken map. It's so easy to turtle up on three bases as a protoss that I feel like it shouldn't be used when a superior version (Terminus SE) is available. I suppose they intent for the first season to be conservative with map choice though. Using GSL maps that have already proven themselves and using Blizzard maps.
Maybe it's a pity that this way the GSL and I guess ESL are still setting the standard for establishing the map pool, while MLG and NA only follow. Not that this is bad, if every tournament used a different pool it would be just ..annoying.
I personally favor using at least an ICCUP map, and at least a new GSTL map though, to support the map making community. Neo Enigma and Dual Sight seem like very good maps to me (haven't played the latter yet though), and I think NASL shouldn't be afraid to take a bit of risk with being one of the first tournaments to follow suit in adding these maps.
Not that I know how the map selection process occurred, so perhaps pro players do like this map pool and my complaints are more from a potential spectator's point of view.
On April 07 2011 17:49 Adeeler wrote: 5th ->32nd place get shafted for playing tonnes of games over a longer period thus less chances to place higher, more pressure to not play weekly tourneys as if you don't place top8 you wasted so much time.
I think GSL distribution is more benifical for players as a whole and NASL is actually harmful to player even with a big pot.
Got to agree, there should be a distribution which benefits the 16-32 aswell
to all those suggestion to have prize money for positions 17-32, you should first check out the league format : + Show Spoiler +
It's easy to see that those positions don't really make any sense with this format as they are not clearly defined and relatively irrelevant. Basically, what matters in NASL is to make it to the week 13, 16-men brackets and that's where the money comes in, which is kinda logical to me. So I like the prize distribution as it makes for some pretty epic amounts and will no doubt ensure quality games.
On April 07 2011 13:44 00Visor wrote: Prizepool is a really big issue for the players. There are so many good competing players out there, who didn't get more than 1k in Prizes in the last half year. So if you win one big tournament you are good (moneywise) and else you can probably barely cover your expenses as a progamer (if at all). It would be good for esports if more progamers can actually make a good living and therefore prizepools should be A LOT more even distributed.
Even GSL pays 1.3k just for participating in Code S. Thats only 1 day (2 if you count up/down matches). In NASL you have to play 9 matches and 35 players will get nothing? Thats not how a proleague should be.
My take: Eliminated in Groupstage: 750$ Ro16: 1500$ Ro8: 2500$ 4th: 5000$ 3rd: 7500$ 2nd: 12500$ 1st: 27250$
maybe they want to have a bigger 1st/2nd prize than gsl?
On April 07 2011 13:34 hmmm... wrote: uh update the op with the fact that GSL's prize money is prize covering a month of tournament, not 3 months like the NASL. if you wanna compare them, compare them accurately.
Poor map pool. Really, NASL is one of the few leagues now with enough clout to have some international influence with their map selection and instead they sheep it up and go with GSL and ladder maps... very disappointing.
You have to consider that this first season is invite only, so if they spread out the prizes to the bottom more, many people might be crying foul.
Once you can actually say everyone in the roster has "earned their place" without a doubt, maybe a more bottom friendly prize distribution would make sense.
GSL did have several open qualifiers before all this codeA/codeS business, don't forget.
This gives a nice prize pool boost to the western tournament scene. We are slowly getting there . I agree that more of the prize money should go to the lower leagues, GSL is a good example. As soon as you make it into Code S, you can actually make a living of it (almost). I think it is a great system, because it gives players financial security as long as they stay in the league.
NASL would have been a great opportunity to get some new maps out there. The long season means that even if people aren't that used to the maps to begin with they definitely will be by the time the finals roll around. Or I guess we could go with backwater gulch
WAYY too top heavy. I feel sorry for all the players who won't place 4th and higher and I think this is a step back. NASL claims its goal is to further e-sports but how do they accomplish that by rewarding only the top4 players for playing over 3 months of games? It looks like NASL's only goal is to boast about having a better 1st place prize over GSL.
Morrow got more money by going to Korea for two weeks and he never won a single game.
Wow this distribution is terrible. How the hell can there ever be an incentive to become a pro-gamer if only the very, very, very best are capable of making a living out of it? The way as it is the already very good players will continue to strive for perfection, but the large amount of good, decent players will not be able to make enough money to pay for food and rent unless they get lucky once in a while. I've expected more from NASL.
Is that the MLG version of Metalopolis and Shattered Temple? If not, i am really disappointed. I would also like to see some iCCup maps instead of Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks.
On April 07 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: Wow this distribution is terrible. How the hell can there ever be an incentive to become a pro-gamer if only the very, very, very best are capable of making a living out of it? The way as it is the already very good players will continue to strive for perfection, but the large amount of good, decent players will not be able to make enough money to pay for food and rent unless they get lucky once in a while. I've expected more from NASL.
I dunno if other people have noticed or not but I am getting the feeling that being an actual player is the worst profession in the SC2 scene. Look at what people who can drum up viewers on streaming sites/youtube make or what people get from coaching. No one in NA survives off winning alone.
Maybe there's a few guys in Europe who make most of their money off tournament wins, and definitely a handful in Korea. But here in NA, if you are strictly a player you are basically a sucker. You work ten times harder and get significantly less reward with almost no stability, and in many cases, people make money off your back by casting your games on their streams and uploading them on youtube and what have you. It seems really backwards but there you go
wasn't it tyler and incontrol that were advocating better prize distribution in SotG? And I thought community was also behind such a thing. Just wonder if they ever listen to the top players/fans or are just doing their own thing to say that they have a better 1st place than GSL.
IMO they need to come out and offer a real explanation for why they are choosing such terrible maps in the map pool. This hurts their tournament. I can't wait for the LR threads with everyone complaining about how terrible the maps are for 100 pages each time.
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
I think if you compare eSports to a more apt counterpart (certainly by prize money) you might find yourself wrong. I used to play on the Canadian pro golf tour. I had a sponsorship from a Callaway which supplied me with equipment, clothing and covered air fare and tournament entrance fees.
In order to make any money at all, I had to go out there and perform.
In agreement with Xeris though.....Pro gamers should be grateful that it's so easy to sell "coaching" for outrageous prices, and get decent ad streaming revenue. Its really tough to establish yourself in the same way in golf.
On April 07 2011 22:24 setzer wrote: It looks like NASL's only goal is to boast about having a better 1st place prize over GSL.
Thats kinda the impression i get too.
I dont know if this "top-heavy" prize destribution is really what esports need.
I mean "50k first" sounds super special awesomesauce, but being 5th oder 9th in a 3month competition with 50 of the best players in the world and getting 1,5 or 0,5k $ respectively seems really like a joke.
Not to mention that nasl still hold far less prize money in comparison to gsl, but i guess that 1st-place-competition that nasl is looking for is more important than being a reasonable tournament from a players perspective.
On April 07 2011 12:40 Butcherski wrote: typhon peaks and backwater gulch are fucking horrible blizzard maps ... why would you go ahead and ruin a perfectly good league
My God, QQ. These maps aren't going to "ruin the league". Since they haven't seen much competitive play, I bet a lot of pros haven't figured out the best way to use the map to their respective race's advantage yet.
Give it some time, I'm sure they picked the maps for a reason.
On April 07 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: Wow this distribution is terrible. How the hell can there ever be an incentive to become a pro-gamer if only the very, very, very best are capable of making a living out of it? The way as it is the already very good players will continue to strive for perfection, but the large amount of good, decent players will not be able to make enough money to pay for food and rent unless they get lucky once in a while. I've expected more from NASL.
Yeah, i thought the community and players had made thier wishes clear when GSL started with a extremely top-heavy prize pool in season one.
I really do not understand the point in having it that top heavy... Maybe for "wow"-effect but just market the total prize sum instead.
*edit* Ah, they wanted to have bigger nr.1 money than GSL... that is a pretty awwful reason in my opinion.
On April 07 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: Wow this distribution is terrible. How the hell can there ever be an incentive to become a pro-gamer if only the very, very, very best are capable of making a living out of it? The way as it is the already very good players will continue to strive for perfection, but the large amount of good, decent players will not be able to make enough money to pay for food and rent unless they get lucky once in a while. I've expected more from NASL.
Yeah, i thought the community and players had made thier wishes clear when GSL started with a extremely top-heavy prize pool in season one.
I really do not understand the point in having it that top heavy... Maybe for "wow"-effect but just market the total prize sum instead.
*edit* Ah, they wanted to have bigger nr.1 money than GSL... that is a pretty awwful reason in my opinion.
It's not even that the nr.1 gets that much what bothers me...I'm concerned about the nr.9-32. Nr.9-16 get lousy 500 bucks...that's just ridiculous, that does barely pay for one week living expenses.
And yes, players should be able to live off this money. We want to see them get better, which can't be done when they have to spend their whole time coaching instead of practicing.
On April 07 2011 13:03 tertle wrote: One problem I have weith NASL group play is if you are half way through season, lost everything with no real chance of making top 16, why bother training hard for specific matchups for rest of season? Probably better training for other tournaments.
I'm not saying people will throw games, but might not train as hard as they otherwise would.
During season play, only the top two from each division auto-qualify. #11-#30 have a mini-tourney to determine which five players also advance. And #1-#34 qualify for next season. There will be strong incentive to compete each week, even for those near the bottom.
Don't really get why is BWG in the map pool, I would get it if it was some semi-pro tour, but all the people in NASL are pro players on teams that can get practice off ladder.
Also (this goes to all tournaments) I don't really get the Crossfire choice, since 99% of pro players I heard speaking about hate it (specialy p and z players).
On the bright side, I like the grps/maps rotation system, and the prize money seems kinda top heavy but I understand the motivation for that.
The communities complaining about the mappool before the tournament has started... Use this information to your advantage and change the pool while you can! There's no reason to not add some iCCup maps, and I hope to God the current mappools maps are edited the way MLG was. If these are standard Blizzard maps you're going to destroy your reputation before things even get started.
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
Your tourney, your prize distribution. Yet you are wrong about tennis. Here's the tournament winnings for the first three months of 2011. #100 on the list has already earned $74,554 from 3 wins and 8 losses.
Backwater Gulch? Is Blizzard picking your maps for you? Lol. That map is awful, but other than that, super excited to get this underway and watch the INSANE amount of games you guys have lined up for us! :D
On April 07 2011 13:44 00Visor wrote: Prizepool is a really big issue for the players. There are so many good competing players out there, who didn't get more than 1k in Prizes in the last half year. So if you win one big tournament you are good (moneywise) and else you can probably barely cover your expenses as a progamer (if at all). It would be good for esports if more progamers can actually make a good living and therefore prizepools should be A LOT more even distributed.
Even GSL pays 1.3k just for participating in Code S. Thats only 1 day (2 if you count up/down matches). In NASL you have to play 9 matches and 35 players will get nothing? Thats not how a proleague should be.
My take: Eliminated in Groupstage: 750$ Ro16: 1500$ Ro8: 2500$ 4th: 5000$ 3rd: 7500$ 2nd: 12500$ 1st: 27250$
Well the basic answer to the stability issue of players' incomes is that sponsors of teams (and of specific players) ought to be providing it, not prize money from leagues. What leagues need to do is get the big numbers of viewers tuning in and give the players a chance to promote their sponsors when they win (let them mention sponsors interviews, let them show their jerseys in video interviews, etc). If the league isn't guaranteeing a stable income for its players, it needs to let players' sponsors get some major face time.
While it's true sponsors should be providing stability for players, there aren't really enough big sponsors to really support more than the top 5-10 guys in the country.. Plus I don't think it's too fair to have top players compete for 10 weeks and only the top 4 or so take home anything.
If I was a competitor I would prefer GSL Code S prize structure, simply because you have a much higher chance of winning at least something, but as a spectator I prefer the NASL prize structure.
can't believe the amount of qqing about the prize pool. maybe taking $5k off first and bumping 5-8 up to $2250 and 9-16 to $750 would be better, but there is nothing inherently wrong about it as it is.
If progamers want a more evenly distributed prize-pool they need to organize themselves in some fashion. If most of the players were represented by some kind of 'progamer association' they would have some bargaining power with the tournament organizers.
individual players complaining about prize pools and poor scheduling etc is not going to change anything.
I think people are being a little too harsh on the NASL, they're making an effort to be a good league but people constantly bash it.
The map pool is generally pretty good, it has most of the good maps, I'm surprised to see no shakuras but it's not a huge deal. Backwater gulch has had the natural expansions fixed and isn't half as bad now as people like to make out to be.
The prize pool is exactly what I expected to see. For publicity reasons the prize pool is always going to have a huge first prize. It sucks for the players, but it's nothing new.
The SC2 foreigner scene - and even more so for SC:BW - is very much driven by volunteers, by people with passion for the game. I think there's a case to be made that when you have a group of people who all do their best and are equal in skill level, to then have one person go home with 50.000 dollars and the other with nothing, just because the former one a couple of extra 20 minute games that are at least part luck-based, that this might be cause for bitterness and resentment by some of the players. He might think he's equal to others, yet they have everything and he has nothing.
Like others I really enjoy typhon, and actually think that backwater makes for some really interesting games even though players can hate it (myself included, especially zvz). I like the prize distribution, even though I feel bad for folks the 34 folks not getting cash.
I hope this won't be straining players to the point where a lot of effort is made at the possible expense of other tournaments and to the point where players get a poor return on their investment. Looking forward to the NASL format!
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
Your tourney, your prize distribution. Yet you are wrong about tennis. Here's the tournament winnings for the first three months of 2011. #100 on the list has already earned $74,554 from 3 wins and 8 losses.
oh god #11 is on pace to make 1.8 million dollars this year. no good! :D
I feel a little disappointed that such a big name tournament who claims to listen to the community is using Crossfire and Backwater Gulch. I have yet to hear any top players say they want them, nor have I heard the community ask for them. The GSL maps are nice, but fairly imbalanced in favor of Protoss late game (as Koreans admit). It seems to me that the community wants a map pool similar to MLG, with a couple GSL maps added. I understand not wanting to use Pawn Re, since that (my) map isn't a macro-oriented map, but Testbug or Neo Enigma? Both of the maps are much more balanced and fun to spectate than Blizzard maps.
Obviously I'm with majority here about backwater. But I feel like the NASL has done nothing but make the best possible decisions moving forward. Ex. they got rid of the 5 team max, they got rid of the no koreans rule. I believe that was mainly from hearing the public's opinion. I have no doubt that if enough concern is raised from the community and participants, they would be happy to change it.
It's probably to late to change it now after telling the players what maps they should be practising and preparing on. And I don't think they can change it mid season so I think we are stuck with the maps for two months.
Should have let the people know earlier what the candidate map pool was if they were going to make non standard decisions. Then they'd have time to change.
I remember when "progamers" in bw were making like 400 bucks a month "salary". Now its big tournaments and some players are still gonna make shit while as someone practically wins the lottery.
The problem I see is Koreans tend to be more successful in winning..so if they end up winning the top 4 places..that essentially means all t he North Americans are still going to have to maintain jobs to keep practicing and participating in events..which in effect does absolutely nothing to help promote North America.
Maybe nothing will change, but that's the issue really, it just stays the same. This game became semi professional with people trying to live and practice together, but if its not any easier to get a decent wage, its not really doing much good. I feel like it wasn't very prudent to try and match GSL then 1 up them with even more prize money. My appeal to GSL isn't from how much they make, but the games. It would be my hope they can all take in enough to continue to make enough to keep doing so, not for some guy to make an exorbitant amount of money while the rest are eating at McDonalds.
When we all watch professional sports, other than big contract signings in the news, we don't watch the playoffs because X team is gonna make more money or the superbowl because they're competing for so many dollars. We're watching it because they're the best teams of the season duking it out, I don't care how much they make.
The only relevance to how much money is on the line really should be to potential sponsors and teams/players. Spectators should be concerned with the game, not the money. Money has and always will be nothing more than an enabler, you're taking away that enabling feature when you have a foolishly top heavy prize pool structure. Hindsight will be 20/20 when all the money dries up.
10 weeks.... wow didn't know it was that long. I'm sure it will fun to watch, but losing early will suck for anyone, atleast in the gsl you know another gsl is just around the corner.
I'm not too concerned with the top heavy nature of the prize pool, but I think every player in the league should get paid. In GSL, every player gets 1300 for just being in Code S. Having a player spend 13 weeks in NASL, they should at least get some monetary compensation.
Finally, the map pool isn't too great. You should use more of MLG and GSL maps. Backwater Gulch is basically a steppes of war.
On April 07 2011 16:13 Xeris wrote: As a gamer you're not supposed to really live off prize money. You're supposed to live off the salary and such you get from your team. No professional athlete lives off prize winning in major sports like basketball, soccer, tennis, etc.
The winner of Grand Slams get like $1 million, but for all but the top 10 or so tennis players, tournament winnings alone can't give you a good living.
Lol at this, seriously. The prize money is what the lower tier tennis pros live off. Its exactly the other way around, the winners make much more with sponsorship deals. The low ranked players make in compariosn nothing in sponsorships. Its the same in other individual sports like golf or poker. It is not possible for hundreds of players to live off sponsorships, they have to get money over prizes.
In team sports its different of course, you get a salary there. But that cant be compared to sc.
On April 08 2011 07:30 Kennigit wrote: Really top heavy considering the length of the league imo.
I also agree that due to the length of the league you'd expect a more distributed prize pool. It's nice to spout FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS TO THE WINNER but when you're considering the time commitment required for all 50 players I'd kind of expect those who make it to the top16 tournament to get a pretty significant reward.
I don't see why people are so hung up on the prize money that will affect maybe .1% of the people on here...not really a big deal. What I am worried about is the length of the season. 13 weeks seems quite long, though it will feel like an actual season. The more information I've seen on the NASL the more I'm actually looking forward to it.
In the GSL, landing last place of any tournament, even Code A gets a player some prize money. I believe that is because since they broadcast games of your matches, a player should at least be compensated as such.
With so many games being played in the divisions with each of them being broadcast, I feel that even the players that never make it out the group should be paid.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZKRfx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IAwPB.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.nasl.tv/Images/graphLarge.jpg)
. I agree that more of the prize money should go to the lower leagues, GSL is a good example. As soon as you make it into Code S, you can actually make a living of it (almost). I think it is a great system, because it gives players financial security as long as they stay in the league.
