EPTA Quantitative Analysis of the Ultralisk - Page 3
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On April 02 2011 11:21 tGhOeOoDry wrote: There is unquestionably a mineral cost to supply: 8 supply costs 100 minerals. That isn't the only cost to supply, but it is a cost. I do agree that in the lategame the supply cost is more important than resource cost, and I included that information as well. The problem with that is that supply can be reused, so assigning this value to it only makes sense in the very early game. Trying to equate supply to minerals in an overall analysis of unit effectiveness is incorrect - as I pointed out earlier. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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SlipperySnake
248 Posts
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LilClinkin
Australia667 Posts
On April 02 2011 12:53 SlipperySnake wrote: I just kind of wish ultras at least had a purpose when they come out. I mean broodlords are so beastly it is a shame that ultras just don't even seem to be workable. As has been said, but ignored so many times in this thread already, the purpose of the ultra is to tank damage. It is fricken huge, has high hp, and has high armor when upgraded. All splash damage attacks landing on the ultra will not damage adjacent units, because the physical size of the ultra is so big. Many splash damage attacks are required to hit the ultra before you finally bring it down, unlike zerglings or banelings, which die to 2 hits of any splash-dealing unit. Yes, the 6 supply equivalent of zerglings has a combined higher HP than a single ultralisk, BUT individual zerglings are extremely easy to kill, thus their DPS decreases linearly as each zergling dies. Additionally, a splash damage attack landing on this group of zerglings will damage all nearby zerglings instantly. 3 splash shots from a colo, tank, or hellion can easily wipe out 12 zerglings, but that will not even take off 50% of an ultralisks HP. Tier 1 units such as the marine and zealot do very little damage against the ultralisk due to its armor. The only true weakness of the ultralisk is voidrays in pvz. Any other situation, if you mix them into your army correctly and use them to TANK hits so that your more fragile units can close in and actually do damage, you'll see massive success. Yes, it is 'depressing' to watch 10 ultras get kited to death by 10 stim marauders, but this is not what ultras are for. Throw 4 ultras and 60 lings instead and 10 (or 30) marauders will get shredded. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 02 2011 06:53 tGhOeOoDry wrote: But Ultralisks also cost an arm and a leg. What happens if we divide the DPS by cost (taking each gas as being worth 1.66 minerals and each supply costing 12.5 minerals)? Why do you think that has any significance? Ultralisks do "area damage", so you have to figure this HIGHLY SITUATIONAL fact into the damage as well. That is wayyyyyyyyy too many assumptions to make any calculations more than just "gee I am good at math". On April 02 2011 06:53 tGhOeOoDry wrote: So the Ultra really isn’t that bad at doing damage, especially against armored. But maybe I’ve been doing this the wrong way. Yes. You can never ever analyze units mathematically to compare them. There are just too many non-numerical factors (the opponent isnt a static set of numbers and if Marines Stim to run away any damage of the Ultralisk is moot). So I would suggest not thinking about this game in mathematical terms. It doesnt help. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
But you're right, these things are kind of a joke as protoss. You build a 2nd robo or a 2nd stargate and can pretty easily deal with them. I think them doing more damage and expanding splash radius so they can actually do something before they're evaporated by voidrays or immortals. | ||
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tubey
29 Posts
On April 02 2011 11:24 Disarm22 wrote: Protoss can generate much fear with mass colossi and mass void. Terran has thors and tanks which really make you choose your attack timing careful, if you do attack. Usually as a zerg, they wait for P or T to move against them (unless you're July). The ultra just does not generate fear. . Banelings are the most frightening unit in the game against terran and zerg. I know that doesn't help with protoss though =P. Terran's t3 isn't that amazing either tbh. Especially battle cruisers which don't receive any upgrades that are useful to any unit comp outside tvt. At least your t3 gets full upgrades from the unit you generally mass all game (zerglings). | ||
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AySz88
United States83 Posts
You kinda have an idea of this with the edit section of the OP, but it'd be more clear to solve for the actual number - then we can judge for ourselves whether it's reasonable to expect an ultralisk to hit groups of (say) 5.2 marines at a time in the heat of battle. edit: On April 02 2011 11:38 Jumbled wrote: The problem with that is that supply can be reused, so assigning this value to it only makes sense in the very early game. Trying to equate supply to minerals in an overall analysis of unit effectiveness is incorrect - as I pointed out earlier. I'm not too sure about this. Obviously, if you think you're about to lose (or win) and you have an excess of overlords, the cost of supply doesn't matter. But if the game has any chance of progressing (which is usually the case), supply is probably going to be a limiting resource, and (pardon the pun) that supply will eventually be in demand. Even if it doesn't cost minerals to replace the supply yet, it does prevent you from getting other units with that supply, and, assuming you're not capped, the new replacement supply will eventually cost you 12.5 minerals each once you have to start making overlords again. And in the late game, nearing the 200-supply cap, that supply may well be even more valuable than 12.5 minerals each due to its scarcity. | ||
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Basileus
United States103 Posts
[B] They should be smaller and faster imo. . Ultras are just about as fast as zerglings, how fast do you want them to be??? | ||
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j0k3r
United States577 Posts
On April 02 2011 13:30 tubey wrote: Banelings are the most frightening unit in the game against terran and zerg. I know that doesn't help with protoss though =P. Terran's t3 isn't that amazing either tbh. Especially battle cruisers which don't receive any upgrades that are useful to any unit comp outside tvt. At least your t3 gets full upgrades from the unit you generally mass all game (zerglings). There is a current shift in the metagame changing this. tQaquanda first brought ling bling ultra queen into thorough examination. I currently do not have a solution against 200/200 ling bling ultra infestor if I am going regular deathball. The key is only two 5-armor ultras to squash FFs, then 80 blings rolling into your army and killing them since they have +3 melee by that time. Add in infestors so you can't blink, and queens to transfuse ultras and you have by far the scariest ground army in the game of starcraft. I dont have a way to deal with this currently and would love to hear thoughts. I just wanted to point out how very useful a select few ultralisks are in a zerg late game composition against P providing they survive the midgame. | ||
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L6-636536
United States94 Posts
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Ageless
United States67 Posts
 but seriously, ultras are UU. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
I don't see any merit in theory crafting when said theory crafting is proven to not predict the results of various units in actual situations. Ultras are good. in practice. not in every situation, and not with negative upgrades, but they have their role. some units are bad when they are out of their element, such as thors (vs mass ling players), collosus (vs sky terrans), vikings (vs gateway compositions), immortals (vs mass marine), hellion (vs blink stalker). | ||
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Basileus
United States103 Posts
A. They are terrible against voidrays and B. They are a mele unit. They do splash damage, but if the opposing army is in a ball and against a wall, the surface area is going to be decreased and ultras will have less to attack and the pathing isn't that good either. The terran and protoss splash damage units are ranged and thus can be protected and survive longer to do more damage. | ||
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Node
United States2159 Posts
On April 02 2011 14:46 j0k3r wrote: There is a current shift in the metagame changing this. tQaquanda first brought ling bling ultra queen into thorough examination. I currently do not have a solution against 200/200 ling bling ultra infestor if I am going regular deathball. The key is only two 5-armor ultras to squash FFs, then 80 blings rolling into your army and killing them since they have +3 melee by that time. Add in infestors so you can't blink, and queens to transfuse ultras and you have by far the scariest ground army in the game of starcraft. I dont have a way to deal with this currently and would love to hear thoughts. I just wanted to point out how very useful a select few ultralisks are in a zerg late game composition against P providing they survive the midgame. I find that when I roll with ling / bling / ultra / infestor, 5 and 6 gate pressure off of the standard 3-gate sentry tends to do terrible terrible damage to me when I'm getting my third up. Granted, that's not the way to deal with the late-game composition. But it's very possible to tell when the zerg is going for this composition and set up the rush accordingly. Early blink research (before infestors are out) can also only help. I do love using the composition in the late-game, though. Not only is it powerful, it's mobile and swarm-y. It feels like how zerg is meant to be played. I've had a lot of difficulty getting to that point lately. | ||
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VorcePA
United States1102 Posts
In SC2, marauders, tanks, and marines all do a pretty good job on their own taking care of ultras, and do an even better job when they're mixed together. The same applies to protoss. Protoss may have lost the reaver, which were very strong vs ultralisks, but they still have immortals, dark templars, archons, colossus, void rays, and to a lesser extent: stalkers (made slightly more viable with blink micro). Ultralisks never were a real tank-y unit. They were just big and had a decent number of hitpoints, but you obviously couldn't mass them in the same way you could hydras or zerglings because of their food cost. It was their combination with dark swarm that made them a huge threat because it then took a very long time to kill them, or you had to use specialized units which you may not have amassed enough of, and their damage was really good. | ||
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j0k3r
United States577 Posts
On April 02 2011 15:02 Node wrote: I find that when I roll with ling / bling / ultra / infestor, 5 and 6 gate pressure off of the standard 3-gate sentry tends to do terrible terrible damage to me when I'm getting my third up. Granted, that's not the way to deal with the late-game composition. But it's very possible to tell when the zerg is going for this composition and set up the rush accordingly. Early blink research (before infestors are out) can also only help. I do love using the composition in the late-game, though. Not only is it powerful, it's mobile and swarm-y. It feels like how zerg is meant to be played. I've had a lot of difficulty getting to that point lately. I'll agree with you there, it's very very hard at the moment for zergs to hold fast 5-6 WG pushes as well as delayed +1 or blink pushes off of 5-6 gates. Almost impossible without going burrow roach. As a toss player, if I scout super fast evo or end up seeing a bling nest my response is to just WG rush since I don't have the proper answer to play against the late game ling bling ultra. I think zergs need to experiment with gas timings in order to facilitate baneling drop play instead. I dont know if it's even feasible against an 8:30-10:00 variety of WG rushes. The matter is, I can so easily FF my entire army inside of a circle to take little or no damage from blings. If I take the fight to your base and end up FF my army, your banes will have a no trouble decimating my force. Another answer is to backstab - perhaps if you've scouted a 5-6 gate moving out across the map, go on the offensive with bling drops at both bases to force me back and buy time for key infestor tech. Once infestors are out it becomes much easier to deal with toss armies in the midgame. Tech to ultra thereafter. | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
Let us outline the following common scenario: You are engaging an opponent in the late game on 4 base (5 hatch) with a 200/200 army. You have 71 larva saved. You have 3500/2200 in the bank. You anticipate needing 1 or more re-maxes in order to win the game. You attack. There is no way you are going to spend your money to zero if you use all your larva on lings. Conversely, you will not spend your larva to zero if you spend all your money on ultras. Considering this knowledge, and managing larva as the fourth resource, we can conclude that (barring other, unmentioned variables), the best way to remax is to make enough ultras to bring yourself down to a reasonable amount of money, then continue remaxing with more money effecient units after the larva efficiency issue has been addressed. For example, making 4 Ultras, then 16 roaches, 9 hydras, 8 corruptors and the rest lings. But it is the absurdly ineffecient cost of the ultra that allows them to spend your money while not using much larva, bringing your resources into balance with your larva number. | ||
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ryan1894
Australia264 Posts
You have to compare races, while taking into account maps, player skill, timings and other such variables. Saying the Ultralisk is bad for its DPS, thats just irrelevant, because its meant to be used in conjunction with other units (infestor) and its not really meant to be a make 10+ then win game unit composition. Also comparing tiers of races against each other, such as colossus against ultralisk/brood lord is quite ludicrous etc etc. There's no point attempting to mathematically analyse balance, unit efficiency and such. | ||
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