|
On April 01 2011 22:07 DyEnasTy wrote:I think the Koreans will eventually represent the top teir of SC2 completely. However, I dont think they will dominate as much as they did in BW. First because SC2 isnt an mechanic intensive as BW is. Second I think this game tends to lean sliiightly toward creativity over pure standard play. And third I think if SC2 continues to grow in everywhere outside korea than foreigners will be on an equal playing field. One example of this is Idra. His mechanics are his main strength, but as we've seen in his example (and elsewhere) that WC3 players and players with much less mechanic prowess are able to make games against superior players. Ive seen quite a bit of reps of 2 pros and the BW guy is maintaining 180/200+ apm average, whereas the other player will only have 80/100 apm and still be a close game. + Show Spoiler +please dont think I believe apm is an indicator of skill, i was just using it as an example
The level of play will only get better as time goes on just like any other games. I think that ones with low apm will not be able to compete any more in the future at its highest level. They get away with a lot of things(their mechanics mainly) because game is pretty new at the moment.
|
Why do people reason out mechanics blah blah blah ..
Koreans have shown time and time again that it's dedication. If the foreign scene accepts E-Sport then there is a chance that koreans will be beaten in their own game. If that doesn't happen however, don't expect foreigners to be good in 5 years or so like what they are now (assuming that Blizzard stops making 123098109238019238 sequels, thus fucking up the E-Sport Scene)
Idra is a great example, he dominated the foreign scene when he was in Korea but before his time there, he was a scrub. It's because of the environment itself is dedicated for the growth of E-Sport.
|
Why do you call non Koreans foreigners? If anything the Koreans are the foreigners as the majority of players don't even live in Korea. As for whether or not Koreans are the best players right now, I'd have to disagree. Players like Qxc, Idra, Sjow, Cloud, etc.... can easily hold their own against the best Korean players. A couple of days ago I even saw Cloud beat MC twice in a row on the ladder no problem.
|
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost.
|
On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost.
I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack".
|
No.
There were no real foreign progamers in BW, because you couldn't really be a progamer outside of Korea.
These days international SC2 scene is exploding, players can actually "go pro" and make living from playing the game. This means -- they can practice 8 hours a day like koreans do (and this is what they actually excel at). Training environment is still better in SK (with higher quality of ladder players and team houses), but things are changing outside of Korea as well.
|
On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack".
Muta micro was much, much harder in SC:BW.
|
On April 01 2011 23:12 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack". Muta micro was much, much harder in SC:BW.
I think even in SC2, as people get better, micro will be much larger part of the game than it is now.
|
Although mechanics does not seem as significant today, I believe it will become far more difficult to survive with mediocre mechanics at the highest levels. The multi-tasking abilities of the Korean pros will come into play if and when they transition to SC2.
As players get better, mechanics will become a more prominent factor of gameplay. I remember back in the early beta days we had a scenario of what Day[9] called "the blobs," meaning one battle of two armies decide the fate of the whole game. It is less so that case now as players are doing multi-pronged attacks/drops and constantly harassing expansions while engaging the main army and etc. The point being, as the players of the game get better, mechanics will HAVE TO be a more prominent factor of gameplay compared to that of today.
|
I just feel like there are untalented pros who get away with their plays because of the fact that game is relatively new. As time goes on, SC2 will become more like a chess than poker where skills matter.
|
On April 01 2011 19:48 fritos wrote:
5.History repeats itself
Says who? If the game is truly a different game from BW, then why would it follow the same pattern that BW did, regardless of the fact that other equally different games did not follow that pattern?
|
On April 02 2011 05:20 etheovermind wrote:Says who? If the game is truly a different game from BW, then why would it follow the same pattern that BW did, regardless of the fact that other equally different games did not follow that pattern?
Did you read the whole thing? I mentioned the fact that they are different yet players with SC1 background seem to be on the top of SC2.
|
On April 01 2011 23:12 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack". Muta micro was actually difficult in SC:BW.
Fixed. Muta micro in SC2 is about as easy as a-moving a Terran army.
|
On April 02 2011 05:23 Boundless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 23:12 rift wrote:On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack". Muta micro was actually difficult in SC:BW. Fixed. Muta micro in SC2 is about as easy as a-moving a Terran army.
I started this thread hoping for a concrete discussion on this matter not just pointing out something insignificant.
|
On April 02 2011 00:50 fritos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 23:12 rift wrote:On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack". Muta micro was much, much harder in SC:BW. I think even in SC2, as people get better, micro will be much larger part of the game than it is now.
One thing I would like to point out is that in SC2, there are simply less things to micro.
I agree completely with Rift. There are so little things that a pro player can do that an average player cannot that it makes the skill gap so small. That is why the SC2 pro scene is so volatile right now. There's so little things that separate a great player from a good player.
|
Koreans will be dominant until foreigners set up team houses to practice seriously. Which seems to be starting to happen.
|
On April 02 2011 05:25 XXGeneration wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 00:50 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 23:12 rift wrote:On April 01 2011 22:56 fritos wrote:On April 01 2011 22:44 rift wrote:
Due to the lack of demanding mechanics there are fewer differentiators of skill. This is why we saw that the World Championships were as even as they were in the showmatch, if not the tournament. I'm not sure whether more differentiators of skill will be found in the future; perhaps the expansions will change things.
When I see progamers who practice 12 hours a day in team houses beating foreigners who play from home I'm actually happy simply because I know the game still rewards those who put in the most time and effort in training. If there was no point in practicing to that extent then I feel the competitive nature of the game would be lost. I think as the game evolves into a higher level, I do think that it will once again heavily depend on mechanism, multi-tasking, and executions. For example, in BW, people didn't micro mutas like they do now with "muta-stack". Muta micro was much, much harder in SC:BW. I think even in SC2, as people get better, micro will be much larger part of the game than it is now. One thing I would like to point out is that in SC2, there are simply less things to micro. I agree completely with Rift. There are so little things that a pro player can do that an average player cannot that it makes the skill gap so small. That is why the SC2 pro scene is so volatile right now. There's so little things that separate a great player from a good player.
Not necessarily now but like I mentioned, don't you think that micro will become a bigger role in the game when the game progresses to higher level in future?
|
There are starleagues popping out everywhere, I don't think it will die
|
Poll: Will Koreans once again dominate SC2?Too early to tell (4) 36% Yes, it will be just like BW (3) 27% Yes, but slightly, like we see a few foriegners in GSL nowadays. (2) 18% No, but they will be about the same (2) 18% No, foreigners will dominate them like how they dominate us in BW (0) 0% 11 total votes Your vote: Will Koreans once again dominate SC2? (Vote): Yes, it will be just like BW
(Vote): Yes, but slightly, like we see a few foriegners in GSL nowadays.
(Vote): No, foreigners will dominate them like how they dominate us in BW
(Vote): No, but they will be about the same
(Vote): Too early to tell
|
On April 01 2011 22:07 DyEnasTy wrote:I think the Koreans will eventually represent the top teir of SC2 completely. However, I dont think they will dominate as much as they did in BW. First because SC2 isnt an mechanic intensive as BW is. Second I think this game tends to lean sliiightly toward creativity over pure standard play. And third I think if SC2 continues to grow in everywhere outside korea than foreigners will be on an equal playing field. One example of this is Idra. His mechanics are his main strength, but as we've seen in his example (and elsewhere) that WC3 players and players with much less mechanic prowess are able to make games against superior players. Ive seen quite a bit of reps of 2 pros and the BW guy is maintaining 180/200+ apm average, whereas the other player will only have 80/100 apm and still be a close game. + Show Spoiler +please dont think I believe apm is an indicator of skill, i was just using it as an example
Your post represents everything that I hate about this SC:BW vs SC2 argument. Koreans will not remain on top this time. The only reason they were so big in BW is because they were the ones who took it to another level when the game first came out and thus it created a breed of pros that were highly skilled. With that being said, the rest of the world didn't catch on (to the level of seriousness) to the Korean professionalism until later. You might argue that GRRRR and company took it serious but that point is invalid seeing how they are an extreme minority.
Your second point about IdrA and Warcraft III pros is what really sets me off. Warcraft 3 players are good at Starcraft 2 period. Saying "OH A BW PLAYER IS BETTER AT SC2" is a false statement. I do not understand those who use this logic. Warcraft 3 was not an easy game to become good at. It took practice just like BW and SC2 does. And by the way, APM? Seriously? I'm tired of this argument. High APM means nothing if half of your actions are spamming. And yes, your beloved Koreans do this. You can have 4000000 APM but if only 50 of those actions are on useful things then obviously your not going to be as good as a guy that has 100 actions that are relevant to progress.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
