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Why are Koreans better than foreigners? Will they eventually dominate SC2 over foreigners in future?
As of now, I believe that Koreans are better than foreigners but not by much. As time goes on however, Koreans will likely excel beyond foreigners once again in SC2. Here are my reasons:
1.Because Starcraft 2 has not been out for even a year since the beta, there are still lots of unknown factors, VARIANCE, in the game. Every patch, there are some major changes on units, even Blizzard is trying to figure out its own game- the game is not complete yet. Variance often favors less skilled players because skills alone cannot win the game with too much variance in it. Because of high variance, it’s hard for someone to dominate the game.
2. SC1 is still way more popular in Korea which means that there are still good portion of potentially amazing SC2 players out there in Korea.
3. SC1 and SC2 are different but not that much different: Don’t get me wrong. There are dramatic changes in the interface of game from SC1 to 2, however, looking at the top pros of SC2, their SC1 backgrounds seem to help immensely.
4.Top SC1 players transitioning to SC2: No offense to current Korean top SC2 pros, but most of them were either retirees or second string of BW players. The real Korean ballers are still playing BW like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. I understand they are not the same game but if the second string of the former BW players are on top of SC2, what makes you think that the current top BW players wouldn’t be able to make a switch?
5.History repeats itself (it supports the reason #1): There were a lot of successful BW foreign players in the early era of SC1- grrr, elky, slayers, etc. This was when people have not figured out the game quite yet. AS time went on, SC1 evolved into a game that is all about mechanics, multi tasking, executions, strategies and very little VARIANCE. Eventually, foreigners could no longer compete against Koreans.
Even now, we know that the Korean server is the toughest server as far as the level of play is concerned. Obviously, not everyone on the Korean server is a pro but they just seem to be playing at a higher level even for amateurs.
Do you agree or disagree?
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I disagree. You could compare to another sport like football (not handegg). Even though people in Brazil and Argentina are born to play football that doesn't mean that great players dont come out of countries, where there isn't that huge of an interest? It's all about just getting a small community to train with - and in SC you can even do that online.
I see no reason for foreignors to feel inferior til koreans - just take a look at the GOM world championship.
The only good thing the koreans has going is the money involved is higher en korea thus making it more viable to live by playing full time.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If history repeats himself then SC2 will crash like Warcraft III and continue to be a mediocre E-sport, I doubt that happens.(but it might)
SC2=/SCBW, just because you are good at 1 game does not mean that you are as good at the other, the games are way more different then some people think, not only he UI, the AI, the degree of micro. The strategy etc is all different. Hence the gap is smaller
The reason foreigners can compete with Koreans much easier now has to do with the aforementioned but also with the fact that the game has not been out for a long time, part of the reason why Koreans are so good at SCBW has to do with the fact that they have been playing it since they were young. Now everyone starts at the same starting position, hence the gap is smaller.
I think that the current top of the BW will not switch to SC2 anytime soon because:
SC1 is much more prestigious then SC2
SC1 draws a larger crowd, more fans, broadcasted in TV(E-famous bitches!)
Many others but I can't think of them right now
Hardly a reason apart from money why they would switch to SC2
The reason SC1 background helps is because you have a gamesense and know how to cope under pressure, July for example knows how to play in the OSL finals,(in terms of pressure), he has stood on a grand stage before and that attributes to the fact that he does well in GSL(he does well under pressure). That and basic game mechanics, strategy and gamesense.
And contrary to popular belief, Koreans are not genetically superior at Starcraft.
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@kipsate in the second part of your post you meant bw is more prestigious than sc2? right?
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It all depends on the culture. If theres enough backing, there will be a foreign scene around but when interest starts to go away, so does the sponsors. In terms of skill, they need to live in training houses. Koreans will dominate and continue to do so simply cause they get more practice with top tier players.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 01 2011 20:01 darlhet wrote:
@kipsate in the second part of your post you meant bw is more prestigious than sc2? right?
Yea my bad, edited it to avoid confusion.
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On April 01 2011 19:55 Mentalizor wrote:
I disagree. You could compare to another sport like football (not handegg). Even though people in Brazil and Argentina are born to play football that doesn't mean that great players dont come out of countries, where there isn't that huge of an interest? It's all about just getting a small community to train with - and in SC you can even do that online.
I see no reason for foreignors to feel inferior til koreans - just take a look at the GOM world championship.
The only good thing the koreans has going is the money involved is higher en korea thus making it more viable to live by playing full time.
I did take a look at gom world championships, and in the actual tournament (best of 3's were skill determines the match alot more than team league best of 1's) in all the korean vs foreigner games except 1(dimaga) the koreans won, and i would say that zvz is one of the most volatille matchups but we will see how well he does against hosea san, (wich is going on right now in a best of 5).
so i dont see how the world championships proves what your trying to say, the team league was for fun there was no money on the line, it was best of 1's and you could tell some of the koreans were playing for show (San zenith with his carriers) and the korean team still won....
so i would say so far in terms of the actual team league (and to a lesser extent the team league) would prove the opposite of what you are saying, im not saying foreigners cant take games off of koreans but the korean top players are overall still better and the gap will get bigger as time goes on unless something changes in the west that allows foreigners to have team houses and practice in a similair fashion to the koreans.
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It better be an april fool, because the OP makes no sense, or maybe it's a troll.
Reason 1 doesn't mean anything
Reason 2 also mean great players are playing bw and not sc2
Reason 3 sounds legit, but there are BW and WC3 pros out of korea
Reason 4 is actually kinda legit, we just have to see if and when it happens
Reason 5 i hope for your sake i's a troll
edit : lol a the a pril f ool rename in "interesting post" :D
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On April 01 2011 20:04 Fushin wrote:
It better be an april fool, because the OP makes no sense, or maybe it's a troll.
Reason 1 doesn't mean anything
Reason 2 also mean great players are playing bw and not sc2
Reason 3 sounds legit, but there are BW and WC3 pros out of korea
Reason 4 is actually kinda legit, we just have to see if and when it happens
Reason 5 i hope for your sake i's a troll
edit : lol a the a pril f ool rename in "interesting post" :D
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SHouldnt this be in SC2 general? :X
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On April 01 2011 20:14 thoradycus wrote:
SHouldnt this be in SC2 general? :X
yea, it's in the SC2 general now.
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On April 01 2011 20:14 thoradycus wrote:
SHouldnt this be in SC2 general? :X
More like in blog.
Or an Aprl Fools subsection. :p
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On April 01 2011 19:56 Kipsate wrote:
If history repeats himself then SC2 will crash like Warcraft III and continue to be a mediocre E-sport, I doubt that happens.(but it might)
If there won't be some miraculous expansions, I am almost certain this will happen.
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I agree the part about history repeating. In the bw debut, there were a lot of dominating foreigners.
BUT, in bw, foreigners didn't have training houses, they didn't have league or anything to compete and motivate them to improve. Now foreigners have a lot of good reasons to train, they can be professional (ie : make a living playing sc2), so I think things will turn out different from bw eventually.
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Koreans dont have superior sc-genes with them. It all depends on practice and practice and practice, also on player pool. Now that sc2 is much more famous than sc1, foreigner pool will be much wider, also now that companies pump more money into e-sports foreigners will practice more. Anything can happen, but most of your arguments are pretty much invalid. No, all of them, just checked.
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I have to agree that Koreans will most likely dominate starcraft 2 in the future but not because of some magical gene they were born with but the practice environment they are put in, living in team houses with so much structure and such good players and being able to discuss starcraft II everyday benefits players so much. I mean it would be disrespectful to say that Koreans won't or aren't better than foreigners because they practice so much more and in a better environment than any foreigners, saying they are on the same level is taking away how much they actually put into the game.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On April 01 2011 21:20 shinarit wrote:
Koreans dont have superior sc-genes with them. It all depends on practice and practice and practice, also on player pool. Now that sc2 is much more famous than sc1, foreigner pool will be much wider, also now that companies pump more money into e-sports foreigners will practice more. Anything can happen, but most of your arguments are pretty much invalid. No, all of them, just checked.
This post makes the most sense out of anything.
Koreans are not born to be good at RTS games and none of that has anything to do with their Genes. Much like German people and FPS games. It's just in Korea especially with Broodwar, Koreans lived in prohouses training all day every day. Foreign players couldn't do that in Broodwar as it wasn't a viable option as there was no way of making any money from it as Foreign companies were just not interested in sponsering a computer game. With Starcraft 2, this is most likely going to change for example you have the TL guys out in Korea right now, and I'm sure more and more teams will pop up.
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I don't know why People would think that Koreans had any biological preference. Their dominance in SC1 just came due to the fact that they played it a lot already when they were young and they had much more practise. Especially when your young it helps a lot for your further career. In SC2 it is different due to the fact that you can be a pro outside of KR right now and im pretty sure even easier in the future (by easier i mean that there will be more pros than now).
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i think the real question is how much depth will sc2 have once the patches and expansions are done?
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I think the Koreans will eventually represent the top teir of SC2 completely. However, I dont think they will dominate as much as they did in BW. First because SC2 isnt an mechanic intensive as BW is. Second I think this game tends to lean sliiightly toward creativity over pure standard play. And third I think if SC2 continues to grow in everywhere outside korea than foreigners will be on an equal playing field.
One example of this is Idra. His mechanics are his main strength, but as we've seen in his example (and elsewhere) that WC3 players and players with much less mechanic prowess are able to make games against superior players. Ive seen quite a bit of reps of 2 pros and the BW guy is maintaining 180/200+ apm average, whereas the other player will only have 80/100 apm and still be a close game. + Show Spoiler +please dont think I believe apm is an indicator of skill, i was just using it as an example
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