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So I caught the VODs of Tyler v Jinro at PAX, and I can't help but to be excited. Tyler played AMAZING. I think Tyler is really starting to hit his stride, and he's really starting to look scary good.
That double forge style he does is super strong, and his timing in those games was phenomenal. I was digging that weird timing with this third gate to get it and the expansion up really fast, and it seem really strong. I'm guessing it's aim is to defend against a possible stim timing attack while getting his expo up safely, though if someone knows for sure I'd love to know ^^.
Tyler's unit control is pretty spot on in these games too, and in game 2 of the series, that aggressive colossus/blink timing looked so sick. Jinro played it pretty well, and Tyler still looked way scary with his micro at the choke. I can't help but to feel that if his macro didn't slip there
+ Show Spoiler +Tyler might have 3-0'd Jinro
On Game 3 I was really digging the 2 gate blink into expand and I was really impressed with the follow through. Game 4 I thought that the pylon army cut timing was super sick too, and couldn't believe how effective it was.
So, if you haven't checked the game's out already, check them out! I can't find actual reps, but day9 has the VODs out on his blip. They're so worth the watch. Tyler and Jinro are both looking solid. Usually as a zerg I can't help but to be a protoss anti-fan, but Tyler's just looking scary good. I feel like we're seeing the same Tyler we were seeing in TSL2, just rock solid builds with great timing, and great mechanics. NonY's gonna crush some nerd's dreams in TSL3! 'Merrica!
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wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
User was warned for this post
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On March 11 2011 18:17 Naniwa wrote:
wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
Huh? It's from a liquid showmatch at PAX?
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Jinro looked like he had massive latency problems, which is sooo bad if you play MMM vs Protoss.
Very impressive play by Tyler nonetheless 
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showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
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Tyler has always been one of the most talented Starcraft gamers out there, since BW he has always been on top for pure talent. When he's focused and has prepared well for matches he is nearly unbeatable, however he's a busy man and often he doesn't get mentally prepared for his matches, and ends up making mistakes. Raw talent mechanics and strategy wise, however, Tyler is the best of the best.
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They weren't playing at PAX, but the finals will be casted there by Day9 and Husky.
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I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
If he goes for a more passive style he should've gone mech. With that bio ball he needed to do more multi-pronged attacks and not just engage Tylers army directly. (Even though it looked hard to do on Crevasse with Tyler going for so early blink and spotting for drops)
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Tyler has been doing double forge for a long time. I think he mentioned some of the followups to the opener in one of the SOTG a month or more ago, blink was one of them. I think for alot of people this is new but if you are a protoss you have to get all of Nony's replays. He's a genius, Just needs to add on those gateways but I guess he's a perfectionist of sorts (if he cant support them with perfect macro dont get them). I've personally played double forge in about 15 or 20 PvT's and I feel it's very weak to very fast terran expos -> barracks explode, as it hits before colossus and while the terran economy is quite stronger than yours (delayed expansion due to the 3gate robo, despite 5sentries). I practiced this build quite a bit on ladder, and lost in a clan tryout to fast expo barracks explode twice in a row. I knew the build wasnt bad, and it worked against alot of styles, it just made me look like a noob. (as even day9 was taken far aback by the third gateway) You still expand at a reasonable time due to 5 sentries, and get the gateway to survive any 1base all-in (and obs). It's a very good opener but I still feel its quite weak to strong 2base T timing attacks. Ones that hit before 2/2 and before colossus. But if a T is playing quite standard, and for the later stages like Jinro was (double expos, quick third, earlier starport + factory) it's devastating as nothing can touch you before 2/2, and thats when your gateway units become quite strong.
If you are wondering the build, its gateway robo, add on 2 gateways (third gateway late), for units, you can go zealot sentry zealot, you expand off 5 sentries. Drop nexus, make units, when you can afford two forges get them. When you have more than 17 probes at your expansion minerals add a gas, and similarly when it goes back up to 17/18 add 4th gas, save chrono when the nexus pops for forges. Add 4th and 5th gateway after +1/+1 starts. Fast colossus means you have to take your third gas as the nexus finishes, but leaves you quite vulnerable.
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On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
I agree with this. I think another best of five could potentially have opposite results, because both players are such monsters.
On a different note, I had been fiddling around with throwing down one forge earlier and earlier to get upgrades, and now I'm going to be trying to sneak in a second forge early on, thanks to Tyler He definitely shows versatility, which is refreshing.
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the double forge tactic is pretty sick. however i find it might be susceptible to attacks after u get the upgrades going and have less army, so i guess good scouting is really needed
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On March 11 2011 20:40 dc302 wrote:
the double forge tactic is pretty sick. however i find it might be susceptible to attacks after u get the upgrades going and have less army, so i guess good scouting is really needed
yep barracks explodes really hurt the build I feel as I said in my post. Maps like xel'naga you can survive as you can hold the chokes with FF and cannons. I almost always put two cannons at my natural nexus (or further up by choke on xel naga) because you really have to survive early on for 3/3 to be effective. 1/1 is not that important, 2/2 IS critically important, 3/3 is icing on the cake.
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very interesting games, though I would reiterate the notion that Jinro was dealing with some latency issues, playing from Korea. He found himself in some bad positions due to wandering too far and not reacting in time with force fields during a couple of the games. Wasn't exactly ecstatic with the dynamic of the casters however, without wanting to expand upon that..
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Spoilers dude ><
Anyway, I feel a lot of it is because:
a) Jinro hates TvP and has little confidence in the matchup. This affects his play, probably.
b) Jinro's 1 rax FE is actually not a good build. I know this because he loses a lot with it, and so do I! On Terminus RE it's probably a good build (probably), but 1 rax FE and a lot of the variations of it are kinda balls imo. I dunno, I suppose jinro knows something about this game that I don't (most likely!), but I feel this is a bad build (is there such a thing as a good build in this mu ><)
The 1 rax FE is sort of bad because it reacts poorly to a lot of Protoss strategies, and it's near instant BO lose against 1 gate FE (The protoss has a choice of 2 extremely dangerous builds and you can only counter one of them. Either way, his collosus should be out so early it's almost unpunishable). You lose out on a lot of potential early pressure, and you'll hardly BO win while using it. TvP has a lot of this sort of thing, a BO which happens to be really strong against a certain set of builds and very bad against others. For example, a build with late observers will struggle against a cloaked banshee. DT's are DT's. 2/1/1 openings with later expansions, kind of like SjoW and QXC's aggro and harassment styles are quite vulnerable to phoenix openings. Phoenix openings, especially the really quick ones, can be vulnerable to all-ins and strong rax aggression, or if he gets ghosts unreasonably early for some reason.
But 1 rax FE doesn't seem to 'win' against anything except maybe stupid void ray play. The macro advantage you gain is counteracted by the Protoss having freedom to do what he wants and maintain a strong tech advantage. Take their game one. Tyler does a 3gate robo expansion. This SHOULD be behind against what jinro is doing, in theory, but there is no point in that game where jinro's superior economy can be brought to bear against Tyler. Perhaps there was some sort of macro mistake on jinro's part, but despite having what should theoretically be a massive macro advantage through his significantly faster 2nd and 3rd bases, he gets steamrolled.
Game 2, jinro should have lost. Tyler floating 2k, a problem easily solved by buildign some fucking gateways! Rawrgh!
Game 3, again, Jinro cannot pressure a really vulnerable build, althoguh I feel Tyler cut so many corners because he knows how impotent 1rax FE is against a handful of sentries.
Game 4 could have gone either way. Hard to tell because Jinro lost because of his bunker repair fuck up. Who knows?
I've learned a lot of this through trying this build almost every TvP I play (except xel naga and it's huge fuck-off natural, where I just rush cloaked banshees, expand, get about 6 tanks out and push, and pray to christ he doesn't have chargelots out yet because that's like the only thing that stops it. Well, most of the time) and losing to solid Macro protosses who just go "well, thanks for your absolute lack of pressure for, oh, about 11 minutes. I'ma just do the fuck I want". And then you get to lategame TvP which is extremely tough.
I dunno though. This is just what I'm feeling so far. Perhaps I'm wrong?
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Why are people trying to downplay some great games? Just because Jinro lost doesn't somehow magically mean he's bad, the post is about how great NonY's play is. Why downplay it and just say "jinro didn't play to his potential". Regardless of if he did or not, Tyler played amazing.
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Tyler's timing is just so amazing.
Can't wait to see him in the NASL.
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I'm not saying Tyler didn't play amazing though, btw.
He totally fucking did (except game 2's 2k mineral float ofc).
Just commenting on jinros play as a fellow Terran player.
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Are there VoDs/Streams of the game?
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They are on Day 9's channel, I believe.
There is a post in the SC2 tourney section if you're too lazy to type youtube into your address bar.
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EPT
