EPT
In-depth Mining Analysis - The magic number; 8 - Page 3
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
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elkram
United States221 Posts
On March 03 2011 18:12 papaz wrote: Good find but I hate all of these mineral patch findings No offense to the OP, you did a great job finding this. But I would love if blizz could solve this whole mineral patch things so that: 1. Splitting doesnt give advantage 2. Choosing mineral patches doesnt give advantages This part of SC2 is just annoying. I'd have to disagree. I really like it when things like this are found out because now I have something to work on in the beginning of the game. I don't see this as giving advantages to players just as I don't see one person deciding to do a 14 gateway have an advantage over someone who does a 12 gateway (economically speaking). I consider to be apart of the build order, an essential part of the game. No offense, but if blizzard were to remove the advantage you get from this technique it would only confirm what all the top players, and people on TL have been thinking for a while, that Blizz is making their game too easy, and so it becomes less competitively appealing. | ||
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Rosvall
Sweden122 Posts
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
I've noticed mineral gains up to roughly 100 by the 20th worker That's actually more than I was expecting, just by shifting your early workers around a little bit! When I'm in an opponent's base with my scouting worker I'll definitely start mining (then cancelling) a few times from his close mineral patches to throw his workers onto alternate ones too. | ||
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Tumor
Austria192 Posts
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sixzeros
72 Posts
In fact in my tests I found that the workers above 20 actually mined more efficiently because they seem to stop the aimless wandering around. 21,22,23 and 24 were much more efficient. So for example if you had 40 workers to assign and were stuck on 2 bases, you'd be better off to group and send 24 to 1 base, and then 16 to the other. You're then guaranteed to have all your 3rd drones mining at their most efficient and its much easier to micro in a hurry. ** edit.. of course at that stage, nothing beats a 3rd. mind you every drone you add after 48 is only about 30% efficient even if you have a 3rd. | ||
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Nolari
Netherlands51 Posts
On March 03 2011 03:13 Malloy wrote: -This analysis assumes that the base has 4 close and 4 far mineral patches. I'm not sure about the new map pool, but in the old one only Xel'Naga Caverns had 4 close + 4 far if I recall correctly. Most other maps had 2 close + 6 far. | ||
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Malloy
Canada166 Posts
On March 03 2011 19:47 sixzeros wrote: I dont think it means that 20 is saturation, just that above 16 it doesnt matter where those workers settle because they all earn the same so rather than upset a happy 2 worker patch, send them to the far away ones until you hit 20, but you'll still have the opportunity to attain gains after 20. In fact in my tests I found that the workers above 20 actually mined more efficiently because they seem to stop the aimless wandering around. 21,22,23 and 24 were much more efficient. So for example if you had 40 workers to assign and were stuck on 2 bases, you'd be better off to group and send 24 to 1 base, and then 16 to the other. You're then guaranteed to have all your 3rd drones mining at their most efficient and its much easier to micro in a hurry. ** edit.. of course at that stage, nothing beats a 3rd. mind you every drone you add after 48 is only about 30% efficient even if you have a 3rd. Saturation occurs at 24 workers, after this number of workers there aren't enough mineral patches to ensure that a probe is almost always mining. Out of curiosity, I calculated the average mineral gain per additional worker; 7th worker adds 16.67% average minerals per minute. 8th worker adds 14.29% average minerals per minute. 9th worker adds 9.26% average minerals per minute. 10th worker adds 8.46% average minerals per minute. 11th worker adds 7.79% average minerals per minute. 12th worker adds 7.21% average minerals per minute. 13th worker adds 8.56% average minerals per minute. 14th worker adds 7.88% average minerals per minute. 15th worker adds 7.30% average minerals per minute. 16th worker adds 6.79% average minerals per minute. 17th worker adds 5.24% average minerals per minute. 18th worker adds 4.96% average minerals per minute. 19th worker adds 4.70% average minerals per minute. 20th worker adds 4.48% average minerals per minute. 21st worker adds 2.45% average minerals per minute. 22nd worker adds 2.38% average minerals per minute. 23rd worker adds 2.32% average minerals per minute. 24th worker adds 2.26% average minerals per minute. After the 16th worker (8-8 ideal split), the gains start becoming less and less important. With 48 workers the ideal income would come from 3 bases, each having 16 workers (minerals only, of course). This would provide roughly 2016 minerals per minute over the two bases with 24/24 which would provide 1632 minerals per minute. I'll add this information to the main post. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
The exact mineral advantage per in-game minute stuff was news to me, but is there more I'm missing? 2 more quick questions 1) I swear sometimes I get two drones on the same patch at the beginning of the game perfectly and I'll look back 30 seconds later and one of them decided to run away... am I crazy or does this happen for no reason? 2) I have to wonder how much of this advantage I lose by spamming a drone to to mine at a close mineral patch for 5 seconds while the other drone is mining it... not really a question but something I wonder. | ||
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Dont Panic
United States194 Posts
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
People are currently putting ~16 workers on minerals per base. This is fine when you are on 1 - 3 base. But on these larger maps, you see Zerg players especially hitting the 5 - 6 base range were they just expand every where. What if instead of the whole 16 on 3 base, then just gas at other expansions... you did something like 8 Workers on close minerals at 6 base (= 16 on 3 base) then gas. This would theoretically increase your mineral production by 24 minerals per 16 workers per minute. Meaning mining out of 6 base, with 8 workers at each will result in having 72minerals per ingame minute more than your opponent... Same worker count, more minerals. Seems like something people need to look into, because I might be crazy, but thats what the OP seems to be saying. | ||
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Malloy
Canada166 Posts
On March 04 2011 01:34 Neo.NEt wrote: It's probably going to sound like I'm trying to be a dick but I'm actually just trying to figure this out. So ideally you want 2 workers on each close mineral patch before any are mining on the far ones, I think everyone knows this. As far as I know you can't even get three drones to mine the same close mineral patch if you wanted to because the one that's just sitting there watching will just go to a different patch so... what am I supposed to be learning here? The exact mineral advantage per in-game minute stuff was news to me, but is there more I'm missing? You are correct in that after 2 miners on a close patch, they are more likely to mine a far patch...but the microing portion is more for the first 6 to 14 miners...where you can more acurately control where they mine. The most important portion is workers 6 to 8, getting them on the close patches. The main point I had with the post is that early worker micro can create an advantage and is not wasted effort...which I questioned after the 7% mining boost fix. On March 04 2011 01:34 Neo.NEt wrote: 2 more quick questions 1) I swear sometimes I get two drones on the same patch at the beginning of the game perfectly and I'll look back 30 seconds later and one of them decided to run away... am I crazy or does this happen for no reason? 2) I have to wonder how much of this advantage I lose by spamming a drone to to mine at a close mineral patch for 5 seconds while the other drone is mining it... not really a question but something I wonder. 1) If a new drone is rallied to a close patch, or decides to mine the one with two workers...it can dirupt the others. Also, your opponent can easily disrupt your mining timings. 2) I already answered this, please see the second spoiler tag of the original post. (I actually used 5 seconds for my example) | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Say you have 7 drones and your split didn't fully saturate the close patches, just watch the drones and catch far ones on return trips to go to close patches. The first few grabs are just direct money increases, cost you about 1/2 a second of mining time to change from a long patch to a close patch, easy enough. This should be done by everybody all the time. Beyond that though, just spam clicking a few workers will end up giving you 20-30 minerals more by the time you get to the 2-3 minute mark. Anybody who thinks that isn't important at that stage of the game is lying to themselves. It makes all those timings work out sooner and gets your queen/marine/stalker out a second sooner, which can again be a huge game-changer. Click spamming is definitely a sub-par usage of APM at the early stages of the game now. Also, mineral stealing feels important as I pointed out on page 1. Every time I make a probe change to a far mineral patch, I know that I have cost my opponent at least 5 minerals and some more APM clicks, do that 4 times, while you have your own close minerals double-stacked back home, and you just got yourself a 50+ mineral lead. Again, pretty significant in the first minutes of the game. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 04 2011 01:34 Neo.NEt wrote: 1) I swear sometimes I get two drones on the same patch at the beginning of the game perfectly and I'll look back 30 seconds later and one of them decided to run away... am I crazy or does this happen for no reason? What happens here is some mineral patches are so close that 2 drones don't even mine at 100%, the 2nd drone gets back to the patch before the first one is done mining. When in a situation with double-stacked close patches and completely open long patches, the drone will immediately change to a long patch rather than wait that 0.1 seconds for the first one to finish. This can be pretty annoying and the only way to deal with it is to know which patches those are and pay more attention to the drones mining, every 2 or 3rd trip will need you to hold that drone in place for 0.1 seconds. | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
not BOX BOX BOX BOX BOX BOX (rally) BOX BOX BOX BOX BOX (build worker) BOX BOX BOX nice post, thanks! | ||
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Rhombus
United States187 Posts
On March 03 2011 04:25 Malloy wrote: If it takes 5 in-game seconds to set the worker, then you lose 0.65*5 = 3.25 minerals and gain 45-39 = 6 so your net gain is 2.75 minerals per minute. Still worth the effort. Keep in mind that the better you get at microing workers, the least time is wasted. To clarify, the 0.65 * 5 = 3.25 minerals lost is a one time loss, whereas the 45-39 = 6 gain is a gain per minute; your net gain is 2.75 minerals in the first minute, but 6 minerals every minute thereafter (until your saturation gets high enough, of course). | ||
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trevf
United States237 Posts
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Feb
98 Posts
On March 03 2011 22:28 Malloy wrote: Saturation occurs at 24 workers, after this number of workers there aren't enough mineral patches to ensure that a probe is almost always mining. Out of curiosity, I calculated the average mineral gain per additional worker; 7th worker adds 16.67% average minerals per minute. 8th worker adds 14.29% average minerals per minute. 9th worker adds 9.26% average minerals per minute. 10th worker adds 8.46% average minerals per minute. 11th worker adds 7.79% average minerals per minute. 12th worker adds 7.21% average minerals per minute. 13th worker adds 8.56% average minerals per minute. 14th worker adds 7.88% average minerals per minute. 15th worker adds 7.30% average minerals per minute. 16th worker adds 6.79% average minerals per minute. 17th worker adds 5.24% average minerals per minute. 18th worker adds 4.96% average minerals per minute. 19th worker adds 4.70% average minerals per minute. 20th worker adds 4.48% average minerals per minute. 21st worker adds 2.45% average minerals per minute. 22nd worker adds 2.38% average minerals per minute. 23rd worker adds 2.32% average minerals per minute. 24th worker adds 2.26% average minerals per minute. After the 16th worker (8-8 ideal split), the gains start becoming less and less important. With 48 workers the ideal income would come from 3 bases, each having 16 workers (minerals only, of course). This would provide roughly 2016 minerals per minute over the two bases with 24/24 which would provide 1632 minerals per minute. I'll add this information to the main post. hmm, thanks for this additional analysis. think the drop off between 20 and 21 makes it pretty clear that anything over 20 you should definitely expand. and if i'm doing the math right 24 workers at one base and 16 at another gives you an advantage of 6.60% over two bases at 16 as opposed to the 12.03% you'd be getting and 20 and 20. in fact if you have additional bases, at no point should you not be splitting evenly, but the numbers do show the best times to transfer as being 8, 12 (ideal -- which interestingly but unsurprisingly is what usually 14 hatch amounts to), 16, 20, and 24 as the biggest drops occur after these numbers. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
Especially as zerg, the fact your first 6 workers all return at once sets some very specific drone timings, as they are only limited by minerals early on. The lost mining time of waiting for a second or so, so they can mine from a close patch instead may cause these timings to be delayed slightly. I'd hypothesize right now that it wouldn't be worth it to re-assign already mining workers, but instead sending your next 4 drones to the close patches, and forcing them to stay at those patches instead of wandering. This would make it an 8/2 split at the 10 drone mark, after which there will be less of an issue getting the next 6 to be on the far patches. | ||
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