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Shared bases in team games - Page 2

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Marl
Profile Joined January 2010
United States692 Posts
March 02 2011 02:51 GMT
#21
I totally agree with this. I've been thinking about it pretty much since 4v4s came out. I HATE having to watch the 3 or 4 entrances to our base on Extinction and the other shared main maps. Also it pretty much eliminates you from being able to counter attack because if they attack your ally, and aren't stopped, you're just as screwed.
sushiman
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden2691 Posts
March 02 2011 02:55 GMT
#22
Wow, lots of people doesn't seem to have played BW at all, or they wouldn't whine about people ganging up on others. ~~

I've been seriously pissed about the shared bases since late beta, when they removed the only maps that didn't have super-close positions in 2v2 from the pool. 3v3 and 4v4 maps have always been bad due to the fortress style of them, which makes gameplay really stale.
They should at least mix it up and make some hunters-style maps - if people are so worried about rushing, make the paths between bases longer. Or just force people to scout and react. Actually, it should cut down on cheesing since countering would be way way stronger.
1000 at least.
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
March 02 2011 02:58 GMT
#23
On March 02 2011 11:55 sushiman wrote:
They should at least mix it up and make some hunters-style maps - if people are so worried about rushing, make the paths between bases longer. Or just force people to scout and react. Actually, it should cut down on cheesing since countering would be way way stronger.

There is a BGH on custom maps for SC2

Too bad it's impossible to find
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
woowoo
Profile Joined May 2010
France164 Posts
March 02 2011 03:06 GMT
#24
I remember having a blast in 3v3 Hunters, spawning at top left position, holding the 3v1 enough time to see my teammates flank the enemy.

Since we are discussing maps, I think Xel naga towers favor deathballs and thus should be destructible like rocks.
wooooo
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
March 02 2011 03:09 GMT
#25
I agree and I actually made a post similar to this myself a few months ago. I really miss those non-shared base maps. I will just quote that post and add a couple more points to it.

On December 01 2010 05:41 Sein wrote:

I was wondering if there are many other people who would like more variety in 2v2 ladder maps, or if I was in a small minority wanting this. Currently, almost every single 2v2 map is "shared base" type.

I personally prefer maps where the four players are about equally distanced from one another, because it makes counterattacking your opponent bases while your ally is under attack a much more potent option than in shared base maps. "Shared base" maps make either helping your ally or sitting in your base building up an army while your ally is dying almost always better choices than trying to attack your enemy bases at the same time.

Why? Your ally's base is 5 steps away, so why not just help him when your enemy bases are so far away? Chances are the opponent players will have a good number of reinforcement units by the time you get to their bases, and since the two enemy bases are very close to each other, you are basically attacking two players instead of one, which put you at a disadvantage. It also puts your own base in a very vulnerable position because if the opponent units are attacking your ally, that means they are also right in front of your own base. Quick air units like mutas and banshees are a few exceptions.

Of course, people have different preferences. Some of my friends really like these shared base maps, and I respect their opinions. However, I would just like to see more variety, as in a good mix of shared base and non-shared base type (where the four players are about equally distanced from one another) maps. I liked LT and Metalopolis when they were in the 2v2 map pool, and I don't really understand why they were taken out.


Yes, 2v2 on non-shared base maps are T1 fests especially at the higher levels because whichever team gathers up first and attacks usually gains an advantage, but you know, these T1 battles sometimes turn out to be pretty exciting because it is a nonstop skirmish in the middle of the map and you rarely get a "break" where your units are sitting in your base while you macro up nicely. It's a different style of play. I remember I actually quite liked watching and playing this type of games back in the bw days.

I'm not suggesting (and I don't think OP is either) that Blizz should replace the entire map pool with non-shared base maps. Just mix in 2-3 of these maps and I think this will add some nice variety to the team games.
Leeto
Profile Joined August 2007
United States1320 Posts
March 02 2011 03:14 GMT
#26
The poll option for randomized spawns on shared base maps is funny. I don't know if it's been fixed, but a while ago you could play custom 1v1s on Twilight Fortress and stuff and spawn right next to the opponent. That led to some crazy worker rushes.

On topic, I'm also disappointed in the team map pool. Even if they just added Metal or LT to the 2v2 pool I'd be happy. It leads to more dynamic games, and different styles of play for shared base, close base, and regular base maps.
Railxp
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Hong Kong1313 Posts
March 02 2011 03:16 GMT
#27
[image loading]

this picture of yours perfectly describes how awesome sc 3v3 should be. You nailed it right on the head, as imba as BGH was it has fucking awesome games.

i hope blizzard notices >.<
~\(。◕‿‿◕。)/~,,,,,,,,>
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:30:09
March 02 2011 03:17 GMT
#28
On March 02 2011 11:29 Chicane wrote:
I really dislike biased posts like this. You drew each individual player as their own color for the first one to look like there was even more action, and you drew across water all the time, which I suppose would be drops, but didn't draw all the drop locations on the second one. Instead you drew it as one big blob and still didn't even draw out the 2 locations to go to.

While I agree there aren't many options for the second map, you should at least be fair to both sides if you want your argument to seem valid. Saying "WOW Look at all these different paths!!!!!!" for the first one and then saying "meh... there is only like 1 spot... I *guess* you could do a small drop over here if you wanted..." clearly shows the side you are taking. Instead you should present the information and leave the opinion up to other people (while also including your own if you'd like... but NOT as you present the facts).

i was depicting what i felt the games felt like, and the pictures were clearly labeled. of course my post is biased, i have a strong opinion on this. i give ample analysis, and posted the original map pictures. i don't understand why you are nitpicking.

On March 02 2011 11:32 Mercury- wrote:
How many team games did you play in SC2? Non-shared bases means you lose people instantly to any kind of mass t1 allin + lings. Outpost is actually a great map btw since you can still rush but it's still defendable and later on the expo positions can lead to the game being spli into 2 seperate 2v2s.

Also the poll is biased, non-shared bases wouldn't be "too difficult", it would just dumb 4v4 down into mass lings + x, kinda like 2v2 and 3v3 mostly already is.

i have played easily 1000+ team games in sc2, not that that number means anything, but at a decent level, too. combined with brood war team games, pretty sure i have at least 10k. i do not believe that it is possible to "dumb 4v4 down" any more than it already has been.



for those of you concerned about cheese, a cheese on a map with randomized spawns and individual bases would mean travel between your targets is very long. it is more difficult than proxying somewhere where you can kill one person after another extremely easily.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
March 02 2011 03:20 GMT
#29
BGH wasn't on a ladder system.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:24:44
March 02 2011 03:24 GMT
#30
I fully support non-shared maps. Arid Wastes is a great map for this reason, because it's very hard to help defend your teammate. I'm happy they removed Tarsonis Assault (most generic map of all time) and War Zone, but the new 2v2 maps just make for 2-base all ins gogogogo lameness. So while it's great that they're huge for the most part, there's just not enough resources on them to make for awesome games.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
March 02 2011 03:24 GMT
#31
On March 02 2011 12:20 Whitewing wrote:
BGH wasn't on a ladder system.

please explain why this is relevant.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
March 02 2011 03:25 GMT
#32
On March 02 2011 12:20 Whitewing wrote:
BGH wasn't on a ladder system.


The Hunters was though, wasn't it?
Rotodyne
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2263 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:26:07
March 02 2011 03:25 GMT
#33
I have fond memories of playing 3v3 @ Hunters in SC:BW. Anyone who played with a set team in pubbies may remember the glorious horrors of attempting to join and host games. Most people couldn't host games, battle.net seemed finicky in this regard. Although most of these people probably didn't understand basic port forwarding. This lack of hosts sometimes caused the classic 3 man join maneuver. Attempting to join a pub game and beg the host to put you on the same team as your buddies. It was annoying for the host, and a big hassle for players trying to play on the same team.

For teams that could host games, it was easier, but there were still hardships. Constantly people will join and instantly quit your games. They either realized you were a set team about to crush 3 pub players, or they were too impatient to wait more than 3 seconds for more players to join. Every attempt to play a 3v3 was a journey, a mission, a battle of Man vs. Battle.net
The glory of the first battle in the middle of the map was unmatched. It was a beautiful thing, and I hope it shall continue in SC2. Everyone sent out their first zealot or lings. The problem is that the maps in sc2 team games just straight up suck for early game micro games. I don't know, I'm sure they are just trying to be noob friendly -_-

Thanks to the excellent matchmaker, we no longer have the joining and hosting problems but they introduced a whole new problem with the map pool.

I actually wrote that thing about joining and hosting games a while ago, I just thought it was too stupid to actually make a blog or thread based on that.

That being said, I completely and fully agree with intrigue
I can only play starcraft when I am shit canned. IPXZERG is a god.
Alou
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States3748 Posts
March 02 2011 03:30 GMT
#34
I've been finding 4s boring too whenever I play. Most of the time it's just massing up units and then A moving. Only ever have fun on SC2 in team games when we're messing around and only making one unit or doing really weird builds.
Life is Good.
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
March 02 2011 03:31 GMT
#35
On March 02 2011 12:25 Rotodyne wrote:
I have fond memories of playing 3v3 @ Hunters in SC:BW. Anyone who played with a set team in pubbies may remember the glorious horrors of attempting to join and host games. Most people couldn't host games, battle.net seemed finicky in this regard. Although most of these people probably didn't understand basic port forwarding. This lack of hosts sometimes caused the classic 3 man join maneuver. Attempting to join a pub game and beg the host to put you on the same team as your buddies. It was annoying for the host, and a big hassle for players trying to play on the same team.

For teams that could host games, it was easier, but there were still hardships. Constantly people will join and instantly quit your games. They either realized you were a set team about to crush 3 pub players, or they were too impatient to wait more than 3 seconds for more players to join. Every attempt to play a 3v3 was a journey, a mission, a battle of Man vs. Battle.net
The glory of the first battle in the middle of the map was unmatched. It was a beautiful thing, and I hope it shall continue in SC2. Everyone sent out their first zealot or lings. The problem is that the maps in sc2 team games just straight up suck for early game micro games. I don't know, I'm sure they are just trying to be noob friendly -_-

Thanks to the excellent matchmaker, we no longer have the joining and hosting problems but they introduced a whole new problem with the map pool.

I actually wrote that thing about joining and hosting games a while ago, I just thought it was too stupid to actually make a blog or thread based on that.

That being said, I completely and fully agree with intrigue


We're going a bit off topic here, but man, I agree with you. It was so hard to play 3's (on the US server at least) due to the reasons you've mentioned and also because some hosts were paranoid and randomly kicked people out for not having enough games (apparently it means you're a maphacker according to them).
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:34:21
March 02 2011 03:31 GMT
#36
The problem with split base maps is that they actually kills creativity. In Brood War, pro 2v2 died because there was a single strategy for PZ which dominated every possible strategy for every other race combination. Thus, more or less every 2v2 was PZvPZ, with both Zergs opening 9-pool speed into 1-hatch muta with no further drones pumped, while the Protoss both opened 2-gate into 3-gate Dragoon into Templar tech. There were a few TZ teams that tried, but Mutalisks force the Terran to play MM + Vessels, and Templar + Dark Archons shut that down hard. There was one 2v2 map, however, that didn't follow this pattern. Hunters. Hunters was even worse. Whichever team had a player that tried to tech past Zerglings, Zealots, or Marines first, lost.

The principles which caused this problem exist in SC2, as well. Mass speedling yields map control. This prevents players on the other team from moving out without being immediately faced with a 2v1 situation. They can't join armies and fight together. The only unit that can match the threat and mobility of Zerglings is Zerglings of your own. Furthermore, Mutalisks force every player to be able to defend against Mutalisks, unless that team has an equal air force. Their are some units that could match the mobility of the mutalisk (corsair, phoenix), but they don't match the threat, so the Mutalisks were always the aggressive group, which gives them the advantage.

As an addendum, proleague rules didn't allow teams to have both players select Zerg. There were some teams that played Zerg Random in hopes of getting two Zergs, because two Zerg far and away dominated 2v2, for the principles described above.
In general, these principles apply to 3v3 and 4v4 as well. A team with 1 Zerg will almost always have that Zerg killed by early aggression of 2 Zergs on the other team, and from there, that team is down a player and down map control, and the non-zerg on the team that has map control can essentially have opened Nexus or CC first (in fact, in BW 2v2, PZ against TT, if the Zerg opened 9-pool speed, the Protoss could open Nexus first and then tech right to Dragoons, because of the map control provided by the mass speedling), or tech rapidly to something which will crush players forced to play against mass ling, such as cloaked Banshees, DTs, or Colossi. This works because every player on the team with less Zerg players is forced to have enough units to defend against Speedlings, while the players on the team with more Zergs can often cut units for econ or tech.

Shared bases alleviates more or less all of these problems, allowing a variety of strategies to be effective, and making the game more about player skill and decision making than ability to execute the one superior strategy.

TL;DR
Shared base maps allow for more varied play because of the mechanics of pressure and map control.

Also, the poll sucks. There's no option for non-shared base maps are worse than shared base maps.
Highways
Profile Joined July 2005
Australia6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:47:48
March 02 2011 03:35 GMT
#37
It much more better having allies on the same side as you.

BGH was massively lucked based depending where everybody spwans. I mean if your ally spawns all the way at the top and you spawn at the bottom surrounded by your enemies then you are totally fucked.
#1 Terran hater
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2408 Posts
March 02 2011 03:36 GMT
#38
Totally agree. Blizzard doesn't realize how much more fun it is when bases are seperate

Gogo custom maps though!
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Monitor
Mercury-
Profile Joined December 2010
Great Britain804 Posts
March 02 2011 03:37 GMT
#39
On March 02 2011 12:31 Kyadytim wrote:
The problem with split base maps is that they actually kills creativity. In Brood War, pro 2v2 died because there was a single strategy for PZ which dominated every possible strategy for every other race combination. Thus, more or less every 2v2 was PZvPZ, with both Zergs opening 9-pool speed into 1-hatch muta with no further drones pumped, while the Protoss both opened 2-gate into 3-gate Dragoon into Templar tech. There were a few TZ teams that tried, but Mutalisks force the Terran to play MM + Vessels, and Templar + Dark Archons shut that down hard. There was one 2v2 map, however, that didn't follow this pattern. Hunters. Hunters was even worse. Whichever team had a player that tried to tech past Zerglings, Zealots, or Marines first, lost.

The principles which caused this problem exist in SC2, as well. Mass speedling yields map control. This prevents players on the other team from moving out without being immediately faced with a 2v1 situation. They can't join armies and fight together. The only unit that can match the threat and mobility of Zerglings is Zerglings of your own. Furthermore, Mutalisks force every player to be able to defend against Mutalisks, unless that team has an equal air force. Their are some units that could match the mobility of the mutalisk (corsair, phoenix), but they don't match the threat, so the Mutalisks were always the aggressive group, which gives them the advantage.

As an addendum, proleague rules didn't allow teams to have both players select Zerg. There were some teams that played Zerg Random in hopes of getting two Zergs, because two Zerg far and away dominated 2v2, for the principles described above.
In general, these principles apply to 3v3 and 4v4 as well. A team with 1 Zerg will almost always have that Zerg killed by early aggression of 2 Zergs on the other team, and from there, that team is down a player and down map control, and the non-zerg on the team that has map control can essentially have opened Nexus or CC first (in fact, in BW 2v2, PZ against TT, if the Zerg opened 9-pool speed, the Protoss could open Nexus first and then tech right to Dragoons, because of the map control provided by the mass speedling), or tech rapidly to something which will crush players forced to play against mass ling, such as cloaked Banshees, DTs, or Colossi. This works because every player on the team with less Zerg players is forced to have enough units to defend against Speedlings, while the players on the team with more Zergs can often cut units for econ or tech.

Shared bases alleviates more or less all of these problems, allowing a variety of strategies to be effective, and making the game more about player skill and decision making than ability to execute the one superior strategy.

TL;DR
Shared base maps allow for more varied play because of the mechanics of pressure and map control.

Also, the poll sucks. There's no option for non-shared base maps are worse than shared base maps.
Exactly. Thank you.
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 03:47:02
March 02 2011 03:39 GMT
#40
i don't think it's as bad as you say, certainly not at the casual gamer level. the # of zergs per team determining the entire early game dynamic is a bit different in sc2, too, because spine crawlers and banelings both offer a much earlier defense to mass ling. how viable this is has yet to be determined, but i dare say it is definitely easier on the lone z in sc2 than in brood war.

even if this were not the case, i think shared bases are still too drastic of a "solution". i strongly doubt these were blizzard's considerations in the current map pool. i do not think professional 2v2 in brood war would have survived even if everything were shared bases.

On March 02 2011 12:35 Highways wrote:
It much more better having allies on the same side as you.

BGH was massively lucked based depending where everybody spwans.

so instead you prefer perfectly symmetrical maps every single game with no differing variables? you guys are overstating the effect of how "lucked based" and balanced a map is on a non-professional level. sure you'll probably be surrounded by three protosses as zerg a few times, but the vast majority of scenarios are surmountable by experience and skill.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
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