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Greetings TL!
Just to give a warning: I'm obsessed with categories, and the proper usage of language. It comes with my profession and the ability to only speak one language (inferiority complex?) I know a lot of people simply won't care about what I have to say in this post, but some may. Anyways...
It's extremely annoying to me to read posts about "macro" players or "macro" games. It's even more annoying to hear casters/commentators describe a player with "macro" style. At the same time, you never really hear people describe "micro" players or a "micro" style. This is because the two aren't mutually exclusive, and "macro" players more often than not also have amazing micro (on a pro level anyway, look at SC1).
It's also because the words micromanagement and macromanagement have nothing to do with strategy, they just describe what a player does (clicks, keystrokes) in the game in two loose categories. A macromanagement style would only make sense in the context that you must choose to macro or micro, which is never the case (you always do both, they're basic functions of the game).
Better words to describe style, or player decisions, would be strategy, tactics, and economy, just for an example.
Strategy: The overarching decisions. When to move out, where to position your army, how to use the terrain, when to counterattack, when to engage, where to expand, what units to make, etc.
Tactics: Smaller scale strategy like kiting, saving units with a dropship, force fielding ramps (or an army in half), scouting, etc.
Economy: How much emphasis a player places on gaining income. A player has an economic strategy (how greedy they are), and even economic tactics (microing workers to close mineral patches, maynarding, far-distance mining past saturation, etc.)
I may be pulling hairs here, but its really annoying to hear the same non-descriptive words over and over again to describe different players/styles. It detracts from strategical analysis and discussion to not be able to accurately identify different aspects of the game in proper, meaningful terms. And lastly, it makes it seem that casters/commentators are less intelligent/insightful and don't really do the job they should.
TL;DR Talk about economy, tactics, or strategy instead of micro or macro when appropriate.
There is certainly a usage for micro/macro, but describing style/player decisions isn't it.
EDIT: Not trying to replace Micro/Macro with tactics/strategy, just pointing out they aren't the same. Main purpose was how boring it was to hear Tastless and Kelly commentate.
EDIT: Not a popular argument I see, oh well. I shouldn't have emphasized strategy, tactics, and economy so much, as the majority of posts are just saying they are stand-ins for micro/macro. Not the point of this post at all, but rather to show how the words are different, and should be used in conjunction.
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I see what you're saying, but you really are pulling hairs here.
When someone talks about macro, we know what they're talking about - they're working on their economy instead of producing units - which really is not related to micro in any way.
I don't think we should pause, explain what we mean by "macro" every time we mean that though
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the tactics/strategy ur talking about is micro and the economy is macro
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Tbh, I think you're just re-labelling. Macro = economy and micro = tactics under your categorisation. ('strategic' and 'creative' aren't quite synnonymous, I think.) The fact that the words have strayed slightly from their meaning when describing playstyle is pretty forgivable given we're pretty happy with the definition. You'd have trouble arguing that boxer isn't a micro player, or flash isn't a macro player. (replace with say MKP and idra for SC2) even though obviously the players do both.
Plus, if you describe a player as a 'tactical' player, you run into the same problem - a tactical sc pro is obviously also particularly good at managing and boosting their economy - just as an economic player has excellent tactical play. You don't really solve a problem when the labels are essentially identical.
Just my two cents.
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if you have less than 10 posts on teamliquid why do you even come here to try and teach people about the terminology? jesus.....
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Totally disagree, and yes, there are multitudes of players who are considered "micro" players.
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On February 25 2011 01:17 CherubDown wrote:
When someone talks about macro, we know what they're talking about - they're working on their economy instead of producing units - which really is not related to micro in any way.
Lol, good example of the point I was trying to make. Macro just means working on economy? Why not just say economy ("econ" if its too long)? Macro definitely includes producing units, and micro can be related to economy as well.
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There are also different ways to categorize things. I'm sure you know this since you are a self-proclaimed category enthusiast. The SC community simply has chosen to categorize players in terms of macro/micro capabilities. They also, however, categorize players by their aggressiveness or lack thereof. Take for instance Bitbybit. He's commonly referred to by casters as an overly aggressive player who all-ins every game. There are more categories than simply their micro/macro capabilities. Those are just commonly referred to.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Everything you said is true but your conclusions aren't true.
Tactics are part of micro and economy is part of macro. Strategy is part of both. You do hear players called micro players.
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On February 25 2011 01:20 Toxi78 wrote:
if you have less than 10 posts on teamliquid why do you even come here to try and teach people about the terminology? jesus.....
Those that can't do teach or something? Are most of your posts made up of comments like these?
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"micro style" isn't really applicable for most situations, but I suppose you could apply it if you really wanted to, to loose strategies like ling/baneling vs ling/baneling in ZvZ, mass marine in TvZ, and mass stalker /w blink in any matchup.
Macro-style is a well-defined type of terminology of a player utilizing the overall strategy of expanding a lot and winning in the later portion of the game after overpowering your enemy economically, I see no problem with this terminology and reason for it to change; the fact that saying "someone has good macro, look at his money," and "he likes to play a macro game," are different is just because macro describes these two different events.
Micro is utilized to execute tactics such as spreading marines, blinking stalkers individually, perfect stutter-step micro, throwing down perfect forcefields, moving your army while in the battle to make the most of the encounter. Again, there isn't anything really wrong with this terminology...
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Every group/sport/game has terminology that isn't completely correct if you look at it outside the game... everyone who plays knows what is being said.
Are you going to get mad at marvel vs capcom players because when they say "pringles" they're not talking about the food?
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Basically what I got from your post is that instead of Micro we should say tactics and instead of macro we should say economy... Strategy is separate from both and attached to both at the same time.
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I think you are taking everything out of context. All the terms are being used in different situations by different casters. Also what is actually mis use of certain terms can be strictly because the context takes away the need to elaborate or polish it up. One thing that you have to keep in mind that as a caster I can only assume you are always on the clock, always scavenging for time etc that you cannot expect it to be the same as when writing something in a relaxed way with the ability to stop and think or even review. Pretty much what I'm getting at is that there are many ways to say things or refer to things and these aren't mutually exclusive at all. Even if they could be considered technically wrong.
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On February 25 2011 01:23 Chill wrote:
Everything you said is true but your conclusions aren't true.
Tactics are part of micro and economy is part of macro. Strategy is part of both. You do hear players called micro players.
I wasn't trying to imply any of these words were mutually exclusive, just that Micro/Macro is a vehicle and not an end.
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On February 25 2011 01:20 Toxi78 wrote:
if you have less than 10 posts on teamliquid why do you even come here to try and teach people about the terminology? jesus.....
I didn't know post count meant something substantial, I'll try to post in every thread so people take me more seriously.
OP: I agree it annoys me when people say, "he is macroing up right now" because if your at the gsl level you should be "macroing up" at every literally every single point in the game. Casters say this because there isn't much else to say during these "downtimes" and they don't like to be silent for a long period of time.
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On February 25 2011 01:32 Leviwtf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 01:20 Toxi78 wrote:
if you have less than 10 posts on teamliquid why do you even come here to try and teach people about the terminology? jesus..... I didn't know post count meant something substantial, I'll try to post in every thread so people take me more seriously. OP: I agree it annoys me when people say, "he is macroing up right now" because if your at the gsl level you should be "macroing up" at every literally every single point in the game. Casters say this because there isn't much else to say during these "downtimes" and they don't like to be silent for a long period of time.
This! "Macroing up" is so lazy for a commentator...
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On February 25 2011 01:32 Leviwtf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 01:20 Toxi78 wrote:
if you have less than 10 posts on teamliquid why do you even come here to try and teach people about the terminology? jesus..... I didn't know post count meant something substantial, I'll try to post in every thread so people take me more seriously. OP: I agree it annoys me when people say, "he is macroing up right now" because if your at the gsl level you should be "macroing up" at every literally every single point in the game. Casters say this because there isn't much else to say during these "downtimes" and they don't like to be silent for a long period of time.
Well, no, when they say macroing up they mean he's focusing entirely on getting out as many units as possible instead of teching or harassing.
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Uh? Whenever Warcraft III players are brought to starcraft II, Casters almost ALWAYS consider them "micro" players, with great "micro" and poor "marco".
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On February 25 2011 02:10 Stiver wrote:
Uh? Whenever Warcraft III players are brought to starcraft II, Casters almost ALWAYS consider them "micro" players, with great "micro" and poor "marco".
That is because in WC3 micro is emphasized far more than macro is compared to a game like SC
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EPT
