Formerly known as Puckelrygg, MeatyOwlLegs has reached 4000 points on the EU ladder. It seems pretty much is confirmed that is is Naniwa. Our bm superhero Congrats on bringing the newest 1k ladder increment achievement to the EU servers!
On November 18 2010 05:22 Excalibur_Z wrote: FAQ Q: Why is it this way? A: The answer is twofold. Blizzard's intent is for players to focus on their assigned division. To that end, divisions cover a relatively narrow range of skill. The objective is that players who are both active and skilled will reach the top of their division.
The tier to which you are assigned contains a rating offset in order to normalize ratings. If tiers didn't exist, it would be immediately evident that certain divisions are worse than others. While a top player's division may have many players around 2000 rating, a weaker player's division may have their average closer to 1500. However, after normalization, it may turn out that the weaker player's division has an average closer to 1815, which is much more competitive. This creates incentive for the lower-tier players to continue playing because the gap appears to be more manageable.
MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
and being in rather new division which is on a lower tier (his points are worth less than those of other divisions). He is still #1 in masters league by quite some margin though: http://sc2ranks.com/masters/eu
His 4k as nothing to do with bonus pool abuse but all about smurfing on a new account went other top player are all at really high ELO/MMR ranking.
It means that as he started at a low ELO every games he will win he would gain the maximum of point until he feels the gap to rearn his true MMR ranking. Every other top player will do the same result on a smurf.
That shows imo that's there is a lot of difference between the MMR/ELO ranking of a top player and a fresh new dilaond promoted player
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
It is about the bonus pool as the most points you can ever receive without the bonus pool is 25. So to get 40-50 a match he has to be burning through a huge bonus pool. The account was started only 2 months ago so he would have had a starting pool of well over 1000. Given that he didn't play much the first month or so it would proably be close to 1300. Without the bonus pool he could not have achieved his score with his record, not even close.
That's not to say he doesn't have an insane amount of talent. Just that the bonus pool skews things heavily in favor of smurfs.
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
Are you just trolling here?
Extremely low amount of games played = a lot of points without bonus pool?
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
no?177 wins with an average of 20 points from pool is quite huge isnt it? (not that this win % isnt extremely good as well)
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
It is about the bonus pool as the most points you can ever receive without the bonus pool is 25. So to get 40-50 a match he has to be burning through a huge bonus pool. The account was started only 2 months ago so he would have had a starting pool of well over 1000. Given that he didn't play much the first month or so it would proably be close to 1300. Without the bonus pool he could not have achieved his score with his record, not even close.
That's not to say he doesn't have an insane amount of talent. Just that the bonus pool skews things heavily in favor of smurfs.
I disagree bonus pool is not infinite every people with around 150 wins could be without any points bonus left . you are looking in the wrong direction mate.
Getting your MMR up goes real fast, she has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is undoubtedly very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
what type of name is MeatyOwlLegs anyways? OwlLegs is random. MeatyOwlLegs, however, is beyond ridiculous. does naniwa eat owls? who thinks of the adjective "meaty" when they think of owl legs?
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
On January 05 2011 01:31 Talkerst wrote: It is about the bonus pool as the most points you can ever receive without the bonus pool is 25. So to get 40-50 a match he has to be burning through a huge bonus pool. The account was started only 2 months ago so he would have had a starting pool of well over 1000. Given that he didn't play much the first month or so it would proably be close to 1300. Without the bonus pool he could not have achieved his score with his record, not even close.
That's not to say he doesn't have an insane amount of talent. Just that the bonus pool skews things heavily in favor of smurfs.
I disagree bonus pool is not infinite every people with around 150 wins could be without any points bonus left . you are looking in the wrong direction mate.
The bonus pool is what has allowed him to get to 4000 so quickly but his skill (and smufing) allowed him to get to 4000. It really depends on how you want to argue the point but you cannot take the bonus pool out of the equation entirely. The pool on a smurf account got him to about 80% or so. The last bit, and granted the hardest, he did without any point aides.
On January 05 2011 01:30 Erectum wrote: Every other top player will do the same result on a smurf.
He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
On January 05 2011 01:31 Talkerst wrote: It is about the bonus pool as the most points you can ever receive without the bonus pool is 25. So to get 40-50 a match he has to be burning through a huge bonus pool. The account was started only 2 months ago so he would have had a starting pool of well over 1000. Given that he didn't play much the first month or so it would proably be close to 1300. Without the bonus pool he could not have achieved his score with his record, not even close.
That's not to say he doesn't have an insane amount of talent. Just that the bonus pool skews things heavily in favor of smurfs.
I disagree bonus pool is not infinite every people with around 150 wins could be without any points bonus left . you are looking in the wrong direction mate.
The bonus pool is what has allowed him to get to 4000 so quickly but his skill (and smufing) allowed him to get to 4000. It really depends on how you want to argue the point but you cannot take the bonus pool out of the equation entirely. The pool on a smurf account got him to about 80% or so. The last bit, and granted the hardest, he did without any point aides.
sure but every other top ranked player as the same amount of bonus point in their stats so we can remove the same amount of point on everyone
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
I have him added, and yes, he played top players and maintained an about 80% win rate while doing that. And yes, its Naniwa. Now he needs to follow that up with good tournament performances.
Its kind of strange that toss players (not only Naniwa) are dominating the European ladder lately, but dont have that good results in tournaments. I seriously wonder why that is the case.
On January 05 2011 01:30 Erectum wrote: Every other top player will do the same result on a smurf.
He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
This guy is insanely good
That coud be true, or false Depend on how MMR works
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
I have him added, and yes, he played top players and maintained an about 80% win rate while doing that. And yes, its Naniwa. Now he needs to follow that up with good tournament performances.
Its kind of strange that toss players (not only Naniwa) are dominating the European ladder lately, but dont have that good results in tournaments. I seriously wonder why that is the case.
Its not because of the bonus pool but its because of his division he got 4k. His real points are 3,685 when you compare him to most other divisions and still makes him 1.
On January 05 2011 01:30 Erectum wrote: Every other top player will do the same result on a smurf.
He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
This guy is insanely good
That coud be true, or false Depend on how MMR works
Have we the list of the opponent played ?
Yes, it's in my fl, i added it through nani 3v3 division. He was matched against people like Mana, Kas, Morrow, etc, in those 28 match.
Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
Honestly this bonus pool discussion is retarded. Everyone has the same bonus pool and actually the less you play, the more likely you are to have bonus points LEFT. So really the fact that he has 4k points has nothing to do with bonus pool at all.
It has all to do with mmr though and skill and division as explained previously. Whoever it is he is doing a good laddering job and should be commended for it as he is not abusing any game mechanisms to get that high (except if he is maphacking or whatever, which I doubt).
yeah kinda. i mean with all the rumours, it being naniwa is amazingly likely. but there is no statement nor official confirmation nor definite proof from anyone who could 100% know it.
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
Also you can ask any random Swedish player. Its not a secret or something.
There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
where did he confirm that?
lol it's totally open in the Swedish community that it's Naniwa, he is not hiding it or anything. Basically many of the top Swedish players are sitting in the same IRC channel and it's been know among us for a long time that it's Naniwa.
[16:38] <OminouS> Nani joinar bara för att skryta om 4k (Naniwa joins only to brag about 4k) [16:38] <OminouS> [16:38] <dangerdude> aah du har +300 (ah, you have +300) [16:38] <empirenani> mm [16:38] <dangerdude> 3,664 (3,979) [16:38] <empirenani> måste ju säga (I must say) [16:38] <empirenani> att mitt journey (that my journey) [16:38] <empirenani> e över. (is over) [16:38] <empirenani> på laddern. (on the ladder) [16:38] <empirenani> :D [16:38] <kusu> ditt journey? (your journey?) [16:39] <empirenani> aa var ju en kul grej (yeah it was a cool thing do to) [16:39] <empirenani> o få (to get) [16:39] <empirenani> 4k [16:39] <empirenani> nu kan jag bara massgamea utano bry mig (now I can just massgame without caring) [16:39] <empirenani> ;p
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
The player behind this account might not be outshining the players mentioned by you in tournaments but she has gone 26-2 in her last games on the ladder. The MMR was at the time matching her against the best people on the ladder - she beat TLO on his stream recently and have surely met a lot of other top players and crushed them.
It makes me really sad that this was achieved by one of the most bad mannered and unreliable professionals in the SC2 scene. There's IdrA BM, which can be annoying, but at least his arrogance is partly justified considering his success and skill.
But Naniwa's manners - that's the worst possible example you can get. He screws up his life, his education, the relations to his parents for gaming. He screws up sponsorships, a payed apartment and membership in a international clan because of unreliability. And everyone you ask he's played with, everyone who hosted tournaments with him will have some story to tell about how much of a douche he is most of the time.
And some people are actually cheering for him when the best he deserves is pity.
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Read the thread about how ladder works. His ladder points is 4,000 but overall ranking is 3,685. (whitera 3,605)
Naniwa is for sure good enough to be if first on ladder even thought it havent been doing so well in tournaments.
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Being #1 at the ladder does not mean that he is #1 skill wise, realize that ladder points do not translate to skill. On the other hand Naniwa is a great player who is at the top of the EU scene so not saying he ain't got skill or anything.
On January 05 2011 02:04 Shockk wrote: Assuming this was actually done by Naniwa:
It makes me really sad that this was achieved by one of the most bad mannered and unreliable professionals in the SC2 scene. There's IdrA BM, which can be annoying, but at least his arrogance is partly justified considering his success and skill.
But Naniwa's manners - that's the worst possible example you can get. He screws up his life, his education, the relations to his parents for gaming. He screws up sponsorships, a payed apartment and membership in a international clan because of unreliability. And everyone you ask he's played with, everyone who hosted tournaments with him will have some story to tell about how much of a douche he is most of the time.
And some people are actually cheering for him when the best he deserves is pity.
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
Im pretty sure recieving double the points for every single win he gets helps so yeah it kinda has something to do with the bonus pool. not to mention it will inflat and inflat standings forever. Bonus pool is bullshit and needs to be removed and allow people to mitigate to a normal elo style like chess.
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Read the thread about how ladder works. His ladder points is 4,000 but overall ranking is 3,685. (whitera 3,605)
Naniwa is for sure good enough to be if first on ladder even thought it havent been doing so well in tournaments.
It still makes you wonder... Naniwa doesn't really have the tournament results to indicate that he is close to the best person in the world, it does make you wonder if there's anything else behind this amazing achievement. Suppose maybe he has worse tournie nerves than the rest...
Edit: Bonus pool has nothing to do with this. You can take ~2.2k or so from everyone and you'll have a zero summed ladder.
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
Im pretty sure recieving double the points for every single win he gets helps so yeah it kinda has something to do with the bonus pool. not to mention it will inflat and inflat standings forever. Bonus pool is bullshit and needs to be removed and allow people to mitigate to a normal elo style like chess.
It has nothing to do with bonus pool, it's the same for everyone. If you have used your bonus pool you have the EXACT same bonus points as meaty.
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
I have him added, and yes, he played top players and maintained an about 80% win rate while doing that. And yes, its Naniwa. Now he needs to follow that up with good tournament performances.
Its kind of strange that toss players (not only Naniwa) are dominating the European ladder lately, but dont have that good results in tournaments. I seriously wonder why that is the case.
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Naniwa won 4 or 5 Zotac Cups, last Zotac final a month or so ago I saw between him and Dimaga he won 3-0 and he was on his way to the EPS Finals when he was kicked out. I wouldn't say he is necessarily worse than Dimaga, Whitera or TLO. Even though many people wish he would be that bad because of his sick amount of BM and thus underestimate him.
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
I have him added, and yes, he played top players and maintained an about 80% win rate while doing that. And yes, its Naniwa. Now he needs to follow that up with good tournament performances.
Its kind of strange that toss players (not only Naniwa) are dominating the European ladder lately, but dont have that good results in tournaments. I seriously wonder why that is the case.
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
Im pretty sure recieving double the points for every single win he gets helps so yeah it kinda has something to do with the bonus pool. not to mention it will inflat and inflat standings forever. Bonus pool is bullshit and needs to be removed and allow people to mitigate to a normal elo style like chess.
It has nothing to do with bonus pool, it's the same for everyone. If you have used your bonus pool you have the EXACT same bonus points as meaty.
Im not saying we don't Im saying the bonus pool system is bullshit and it is... its a horrible system.. that means 3k today is great... when 3k tomorrow is garbage... the bar shouldnt keep moving becuase the system keeps inflating the points... the system should be like chess where 2k+ is great with only a select few reaching elo's of 2800+ in chess if you have a elo of 2700-2800 your a god among men.. a grandmaster chess player. Should be the same here... not this ever changing shit storm "omg 4k points" next week it will be OMG 5k points.
On January 05 2011 01:35 Gigaudas wrote: Getting your MMR up goes real fast, he has been playing top players for a lot of consecutive games and still kept a sick win%. It is redoubtably very impressive.
She actually climbed from ~76 to nearly 80% win the last few games.
To be sure we should see his game list Maybe the MMR not goes up that fast
I have him added, and yes, he played top players and maintained an about 80% win rate while doing that. And yes, its Naniwa. Now he needs to follow that up with good tournament performances.
Its kind of strange that toss players (not only Naniwa) are dominating the European ladder lately, but dont have that good results in tournaments. I seriously wonder why that is the case.
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
where did he confirm that?
lol it's totally open in the Swedish community that it's Naniwa, he is not hiding it or anything. Basically many of the top Swedish players are sitting in the same IRC channel and it's been know among us for a long time that it's Naniwa.
[16:38] <OminouS> Nani joinar bara för att skryta om 4k (Naniwa joins only to brag about 4k) [16:38] <OminouS> [16:38] <dangerdude> aah du har +300 (ah, you have +300) [16:38] <empirenani> mm [16:38] <dangerdude> 3,664 (3,979) [16:38] <empirenani> måste ju säga (I must say) [16:38] <empirenani> att mitt journey (that my journey) [16:38] <empirenani> e över. (is over) [16:38] <empirenani> på laddern. (on the ladder) [16:38] <empirenani> :D [16:38] <kusu> ditt journey? (your journey?) [16:39] <empirenani> aa var ju en kul grej (yeah it was a cool thing do to) [16:39] <empirenani> o få (to get) [16:39] <empirenani> 4k [16:39] <empirenani> nu kan jag bara massgamea utano bry mig (now I can just massgame without caring) [16:39] <empirenani> ;p
On January 05 2011 02:04 Shockk wrote: Assuming this was actually done by Naniwa:
It makes me really sad that this was achieved by one of the most bad mannered and unreliable professionals in the SC2 scene. There's IdrA BM, which can be annoying, but at least his arrogance is partly justified considering his success and skill.
But Naniwa's manners - that's the worst possible example you can get. He screws up his life, his education, the relations to his parents for gaming. He screws up sponsorships, a payed apartment and membership in a international clan because of unreliability. And everyone you ask he's played with, everyone who hosted tournaments with him will have some story to tell about how much of a douche he is most of the time.
And some people are actually cheering for him when the best he deserves is pity.
And you just wrote 3 paragraphs about it. Boohoo. If you love sc2 as much as I'm assuming you do after you wrote that, then stop judging people you'll never meet beyond how they perform in a video game that you enjoy. Why you pretending this is a soap opera homie?
Get real. Naniwa is a boss at Sc2, future tournaments in Europe will probably show this.
now let's see what his ladder experience does for him in EPS germany and IEM. oh wait! if it's nani it only shows that you can be a naniwa and still have a lot of points on the ladder.
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Naniwa won 4 or 5 Zotac Cups, last Zotac final a month or so ago I saw between him and Dimaga he won 3-0 and he was on his way to the EPS Finals when he was kicked out. I wouldn't say he is necessarily worse than Dimaga, Whitera or TLO. Even though many people wish he would be that bad because of his sick amount of BM and thus underestimate him.
This he is extremely underestimated just coz people dont like him but he is definitely in the top5 eu protoss
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
That is because of his winloss ratio and the extremely low amount of games played, it has nothing to do with bonus pool.
Im pretty sure recieving double the points for every single win he gets helps so yeah it kinda has something to do with the bonus pool. not to mention it will inflat and inflat standings forever. Bonus pool is bullshit and needs to be removed and allow people to mitigate to a normal elo style like chess.
It has nothing to do with bonus pool, it's the same for everyone. If you have used your bonus pool you have the EXACT same bonus points as meaty.
Im not saying we don't Im saying the bonus pool system is bullshit and it is... its a horrible system.. that means 3k today is great... when 3k tomorrow is garbage... the bar shouldnt keep moving becuase the system keeps inflating the points... the system should be like chess where 2k+ is great with only a select few reaching elo's of 2800+ in chess if you have a elo of 2700-2800 your a god among men.. a grandmaster chess player. Should be the same here... not this ever changing shit storm "omg 4k points" next week it will be OMG 5k points.
I don't get why it bothers you so much. Just substract the bonus pool total... In some more recent chessmetric systems the points actually decreases when you don't play a fixed number of tournaments each year (to promote activity and discourage rating protection) so it has a kind of bonus point too except negative bonus points. Would you rather have your point decrease after a month of inactivity rather than everyone else's up?
On January 05 2011 02:01 Deadlyfish wrote: There must be some kind of error in the system, because obviously this player isnt 500 points better than everyone else, i mean i've never seen Naniwa win anything, i wouldnt even put him in top10 europe. People like Dimaga, Whitera or TLO are surely better than this guy, so why does he have 500 more points than them? I dont get it.
If he really was the best player in Europe (as this suggests, i mean 500 points more than anyone else) then why hasnt he won any big tournaments or anything.
Naniwa won 4 or 5 Zotac Cups, last Zotac final a month or so ago I saw between him and Dimaga he won 3-0 and he was on his way to the EPS Finals when he was kicked out. I wouldn't say he is necessarily worse than Dimaga, Whitera or TLO. Even though many people wish he would be that bad because of his sick amount of BM and thus underestimate him.
This he is extremely underestimated just coz people dont like him but he is definitely in the top5 eu protoss
People don't like him because his skill decreases dramatically once he is "forced" to play macro - hell I come from wc3 and still don't like it how he simply relies on players not being able to defend his 1-2 base semi all-ins.
Just look up his latest games vs Kuba Go4Sc2, both his losses in long games 2 of his 3 wins in/around 10 minutes (last win in game 5 was 18 minutes; also a nice example of his awful behaviour: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)nAni_vs_(Z)Kuba_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20101230/4021 ). BM makes matters worse indeed, but he also has a really undewhelming style.
Of course the bonus pool helped him to get 4k that fast, nonetheless he went 26-2 against the best european players, so obviously he is incredibly good. But can't remember that he was that good, maybe he figured out some awesome new builds or something like that. Don't have another explanation for this rise in skill or whatever it is.
On January 05 2011 02:35 Cripp wrote: Of course the bonus pool helped him to get 4k that fast, nonetheless he went 26-2 against the best european players, so obviously he is incredibly good. But can't remember that he was that good, maybe he figured out some awesome new builds or something like that. Don't have another explanation for this rise in skill or whatever it is.
At least it didn't help him more than anyone else. Regardless if its a smurf a new account a pro did. Bonus pool is not the culprit for his being the first that high.
Let me help you understand. Say the total bonus pool is 2k2. Well then you can say that MeatyOwlLegs's achievement is being the first at 1800.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
Wth. Yes his points are blown up because of his division. EVEN SO, subtracting that he's still #1.
I wish there was a report button on TL lol. EDIT: How the hell do you "keep doing placement matches" ?
I haven't actually tried this, but if you keep creating trial accounts and playing your placements untill you get a really bad division, then buy the game for that account should actually work.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
Wth. Yes his points are blown up because of his division. EVEN SO, subtracting that he's still #1.
I wish there was a report button on TL lol. EDIT: How the hell do you "keep doing placement matches" ?
I haven't actually tried this, but if you keep creating trial accounts and playing your placements untill you get a really bad division, then buy the game for that account should actually work.
Yeah. I think that might be what he did. Can't be sure though.
funny how 12 of the top20 of the masters league of europe come from feld delta.
but remember one thing guys: not every playstyle which is strong on the ladder is strong in tournament play. with a onebasing style it is quite easy to surprise and overwhelm ppl on the ladder, but it wont get u far in tournaments if u are worse in longer macro games...
i just don't see anyone, let alone naniwa (if it is him), being congratulated for this.
he abused the MMR and bonus pool to get to that rank. he started low with a very high bonus pool, and earned points faster than his MMR could catch up with him. he got to that rating by beating players of a lower skill level. only recently has his MMR caught up with his actual skill level, which i don't believe to be too high (compared to what his rating should suggest)
I saw him play TLO yesterday on jungle basin. hate to say it, but that game, TLO was playing like someone straight outta platinum league. he was doing some no-econ one base roach slow expand into losing the expansion almost immediately and then transitioning into banelings, and it took meatyowllegs/naniwa an embarrassingly long time to beat it. i play against protoss players on ladder who could have crushed TLO faster and more decisively than meatyowllegs did that game.
it doesn't really matter, though. his rating will fall as his MMR gets higher and he loses more games. and the ladder resets any day now.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Get away with what? You make it sound like he's committed something bad, when all we actually know is he has 4000 points with an account. You are hating on the guy for no reason...
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Get away with what? You make it sound like he's committed something bad, when all we actually know is he has 4000 points with an account. You are hating on the guy for no reason...
Don't you find it at least a bit strange that he's 1st in a division in which the second place is ~935th on the EU ladder?
i laugh everytime i read a rating thread. the ammount of confusion is entertaining to say the least. btw him being in a weak/new division doesnt change his opponents or mmr. it just gives him a bonus ammount of points. ei even though he is the first too 4k after the division modifier he is around 3800 too 3700 or something. like 10 other ppl said on this thread. go read excaliburs threads and maybe u wont be so confused.
On January 05 2011 03:38 EchoZ wrote: Try doing this on the Korean Ladder lol.
Why? Would it be any different?
How would it not be any different? Either he is playing the best in Europe, and whoever else it matches him against who might not quite be the top, or he goes on korea and is forced to play the very best in the WORLD. I mean, would you rather be playing various high level european opponents, or would you rather attempt getting 4k by playing players like Nestea / Marineking / oGsMC / FD....etc. I mean how would it NOT be different?
On January 05 2011 01:51 NotSupporting wrote: Why are people still discussing who this player is? It's confirmed that it's Naniwa, can we please move on already and stop spamming this thread with useless stuff?
Congrats to being the first to 4k ^_^
confirmed how. Ppl keep saying it's confirmed without any actual proof making it .... unconfirmed !
Naniwa has confirmed it himself many times so unless you are saying he is lying, it's confirmed.
where did he confirm that?
lol it's totally open in the Swedish community that it's Naniwa, he is not hiding it or anything. Basically many of the top Swedish players are sitting in the same IRC channel and it's been know among us for a long time that it's Naniwa.
[16:38] <OminouS> Nani joinar bara för att skryta om 4k (Naniwa joins only to brag about 4k) [16:38] <OminouS> [16:38] <dangerdude> aah du har +300 (ah, you have +300) [16:38] <empirenani> mm [16:38] <dangerdude> 3,664 (3,979) [16:38] <empirenani> måste ju säga (I must say) [16:38] <empirenani> att mitt journey (that my journey) [16:38] <empirenani> e över. (is over) [16:38] <empirenani> på laddern. (on the ladder) [16:38] <empirenani> :D [16:38] <kusu> ditt journey? (your journey?) [16:39] <empirenani> aa var ju en kul grej (yeah it was a cool thing do to) [16:39] <empirenani> o få (to get) [16:39] <empirenani> 4k [16:39] <empirenani> nu kan jag bara massgamea utano bry mig (now I can just massgame without caring) [16:39] <empirenani> ;p
Parts of that swedish looks like it's been run through google translate or something O.o And other parts looks like proper sms-shortned texting... (english example would be "4 u 2 c")
... Actually, google translate translates the bolded english into proper swedish.
All you guys saying that he only made it to 4k points because of bonus pool are completely ignorant of how bonus pool works. Everybody gets the SAME total number of bonus pool points, so everybody's points are inflated EQUALLY and relative to each other. He got this high because he is very skilled, as he has already been at the top of the ladder with other accounts, and because he was placed in a poor division with a high point modifier, which allowed him to get to 4k points when he would normally only have around 3600 points if he were in a good division.
And the reason why you can go from 0 to 4000 (or 3600) in a fewer number of games with a fresh account isn't because of bonus points, but because you gain points faster as you'll constantly be playing against players favoured opponents until you reach the top
On January 05 2011 04:21 GreEny K wrote: omg all these people bitching about the bonus pool -_- of course that is why he hit 4k...
Fact: 99% of people do not actually understand how the entire ladder system works. Your in that 99%... Bonus points is not how he got to 4k. Ask yourself this:
Tons of Pros have smurf accounts (or accounts they just made new ie: Huk) are they 4k? No, have they used up all their bonus points? Yes. Like everyone is saying its due to the division modifier.
On January 05 2011 04:48 Wolf wrote: Yeah, plz get rid of bonus pool. Things like this are so silly.
Bonus pool have nothing to do with him being first. Pls learn the ladder system before makeing up stuff. Im not saying I know the ladder system but its easy to se its not bonus pool that made him first... Look at his last games and se how much his winning against the top players he play.
For all those people claiming that it's because of "bonus pool": start a new account and you will see that after 10 games you will play against people with the same skill level as your old account. For example: a 3k player will face 3k players VERY fast on a new account.
its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
On January 05 2011 01:41 Fregate wrote: He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
This guy is insanely good
You realize 26-2 isn't realistic in the slightest even if you were to have ungodly luck ?
26-2 doesn't ring the "good" bell, it rings the "lame cheeser" bell.
On January 05 2011 01:41 Fregate wrote: He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
This guy is insanely good
You realize 26-2 isn't realistic in the slightest even if you were to have ungodly luck ?
26-2 doesn't ring the "good" bell, it rings the "lame cheeser" bell.
What a tool. The guy has been on fire lately and he's been demolishing pro's. I've seen him play BratOK, Morrow, and both game were 25 minute macro annihilations. Let me line up 28 pro's for you and let you cheese every time and I'll see how that works out for you.
Naniwa has just plain figured shit out lately. I don't care if he beats young children at the park, that's not for me to worry about. This is a forum about a video game, not morality and ethics. While he might need work on the second, he's as good as anyone at the first.
On January 05 2011 01:41 Fregate wrote: He is 26-2 in the last 3 days, and he is the top MMR now, so he played only Top players. I think that Ladder Matchmaking could have helped him in the first 70-80 matches or so, but then it's just a matter of pure skill.
This guy is insanely good
You realize 26-2 isn't realistic in the slightest even if you were to have ungodly luck ?
26-2 doesn't ring the "good" bell, it rings the "lame cheeser" bell.
Imagine he cheesed in 20 out of these 28 games. And imagine he lost 2 games in these 20 where he cheesed. Only 2 looses in 20 games with cheese against the elite of europe? Seems a bit unreal to me to only lose 2 games of 20.
I don't see how he continued to get so many points for wins at the top (even with bonus pool). Something weird going on with his MMR or Europe is just extremely inflated compared to NA or something :o imo you cannot play normally, win just 177 games and hit 4k points on NA (even with a bad division)
26-2 is totally fishy. BW progamers at their peaks of dominance struggle to maintain 70% win rates. There is definitely something fishy. It's also hard to believe how a guy who struggles to place well in tournaments miraculously discovered how to destroy all the top EU players.
If you know how division tiers work you'll understand.
Only!!! ^_^
well, qxc still has a point. it's really ignorant of people to celebrate milestones in displayed points when we know they aren't what really matter. people have put in hard work to figure out real points and how to constantly update and display real points and rankings on a web site. tl.net of all places should respect that and go about these things intelligently
Yeah don't know. All I know is he got in his last ~30 wins mostly 8-14 points, sometimes a bit more. But in about 120 games he got always over 30, that's for sure. But have to check his profile.
On January 05 2011 05:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't see how he continued to get so many points for wins at the top (even with bonus pool). Something weird going on with his MMR or Europe is just extremely inflated compared to NA or something :o imo you cannot play normally, win just 177 games and hit 4k points on NA (even with a bad division)
If you watch the Match History you'll see he didnt get that much point in the end, the last game was 21pts, against Socke, but the 10-15 games before that was all under 10 pts each.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Did you even read the thread that you keep posting? You realize he is still in first in points after the division modifier, correct? It's not like the people he is playing are worse because of his division. He is still playing the best players possible.
And to people complaining about bonus pool. He's still in first even if you subtract the pool from everyone. Stop being so stupid.
I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
The point many of made is that he isn't 4000 points on the Blizzard ladder because points in different divisions are weighted differently. So yes it matters if a website says 3700 because that's the real points. It's unfair on everyone if you just take the points at face value because they just aren't comparable. If you want to celebrate something, at least have a fair medium of doing so.
I doubt anyone really thinks that Naniwa is bad, he's good he's no.1 on EU ladder but he is not first to break 4k points and if you want to celebrate anything celebrate him being good.
On January 05 2011 05:54 Numy wrote: The point many of made is that he isn't 4000 points on the Blizzard ladder because points in different divisions are weighted differently. So yes it matters if a website says 3700 because that's the real points. It's unfair on everyone if you just take the points at face value because they just aren't comparable. If you want to celebrate something, at least have a fair medium of doing so.
I doubt anyone really thinks that Naniwa is bad, he's good he's no.1 on EU ladder but he is not first to break 4k points and if you want to celebrate anything celebrate him being good.
But thats not the only thing mentioned in this thread is it? There's no 8 pages of ppl bashing someone doing a great job laddering, even taking up diffrent "assumptions" on how he could have cheated and what not.
on another note, is there any explanation as to why the ladder system is structured like it is? It really makes no sense to me, divisions / bonus pool / MMR etc etc
On January 05 2011 05:58 koOma wrote: on another note, is there any explanation as to why the ladder system is structured like it is? It really makes no sense to me, divisions / bonus pool / MMR etc etc
It's for the noobs/casual players/broad mass of players. Bonus Pool gives you an incentive to play, Division makes you feel like your making progress even if your not and MMR matches you against people of your skill level and prevents noob-bashing as any good player will get to a high MMR very fast.
Basically it makes SC2 beginner/noob friendly. Imagine it with a simple ELO, just a straight out ladder and rating decay instead of bonus pool. No beginner would want to play that game in 2010, Starcraft is allready pretty fucking hard for a beginner and there are way easier games these days.
Props to keeping up the 75+% win rate. I have never cared for points in this system higher the w/l the better the people you play. I'm curious how long he can keep it up good luck bro.
wow what a hero, thats a crazy amount of points the bar just keep getting set higher and higher as this game is out longer and longer before you know it we will have threading being like look the 55,000 point player yay
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
So it's not strange at all that a player who has never (as far as i know) even placed in the top 10 of any major tournament (MLG/dreamhack etc.) all of a sudden just gets #1 on the ladder by FAR? And while doing it he has a 80% win ratio.
I know there is a difference between ladder and tournaments, but if he can go 26-2 vs the very best players in the world, then why hasnt he done anything in tournaments? And i dont get how he got so many points for wins either. If he is 100 points above everyone else he shouldnt be winning that many points, should he?
Would just love to see an explanation as to why some decent player all of a sudden becomes the best. I think it has something to do with MMR or bonus pool or something. But even then that doesnt explain the insane win ratio :D.
On January 05 2011 05:58 koOma wrote: on another note, is there any explanation as to why the ladder system is structured like it is? It really makes no sense to me, divisions / bonus pool / MMR etc etc
It's for the noobs/casual players/broad mass of players. Bonus Pool gives you an incentive to play, Division makes you feel like your making progress even if your not and MMR matches you against people of your skill level and prevents noob-bashing as any good player will get to a high MMR very fast.
Basically it makes SC2 beginner/noob friendly. Imagine it with a simple ELO, just a straight out ladder and rating decay instead of bonus pool. No beginner would want to play that game in 2010, Starcraft is allready pretty fucking hard for a beginner and there are way easier games these days.
Exactly. Bonus points are there as an incentive to keep playing the game and prevent rating protection. In a no bonus elo system it's theorically possible to get very high stop playing and keep being first ad vitam. It's not good for the game if the first on the ladder is a guy that stopped playing 1 year ago even if he was very very good at it at that time.
Another thing, even the most basic elo system is subject to point inflation in practice. In chess the FIDE elo system is considered around 100/200 point inflated at the moment compared to the first years. It's not bonus point but its comparable in effect.
The only acceptable cause for Naniwa's success here is that he probably tried fucking hard to win every match.
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
So it's not strange at all that a player who has never (as far as i know) even placed in the top 10 of any major tournament (MLG/dreamhack etc.) all of a sudden just gets #1 on the ladder by FAR? And while doing it he has a 80% win ratio.
I know there is a difference between ladder and tournaments, but if he can go 26-2 vs the very best players in the world, then why hasnt he done anything in tournaments? And i dont get how he got so many points for wins either. If he is 100 points above everyone else he shouldnt be winning that many points, should he?
Would just love to see an explanation as to why some decent player all of a sudden becomes the best. I think it has something to do with MMR or bonus pool or something. But even then that doesnt explain the insane win ratio :D.
Whatever though, gz to Naniwa.
HES NOT JUST A DECENT PLAYER, christ. People need to do some research before they just assume stuff. He has never gone to an MLG, nor dreamhack (since it was the first time they had sc2). He has ALWAYS been regarded as a top protoss, but because of his huge urge to BM and fuck up his career, he has been banned from multiple leagues and kicked from former team. Naniwa is rly fking good, and he dosnt just 1base like everyone says. Ive seen him beating morrow in a Brood War like macro game, and i have seen many macro replays from him.
People just naturally think, or "want" to think bad about him, because of his (general) childish and idiotic behaviour. I dont even like him, but hes not bad. And with low MMR to begin with, and insanely high number of points gained for a period, its not THAT surprising, I bet any other top player smurfing could pull something similar off if they wanted to.
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
So it's not strange at all that a player who has never (as far as i know) even placed in the top 10 of any major tournament (MLG/dreamhack etc.) all of a sudden just gets #1 on the ladder by FAR? And while doing it he has a 80% win ratio.
I know there is a difference between ladder and tournaments, but if he can go 26-2 vs the very best players in the world, then why hasnt he done anything in tournaments? And i dont get how he got so many points for wins either. If he is 100 points above everyone else he shouldnt be winning that many points, should he?
Would just love to see an explanation as to why some decent player all of a sudden becomes the best. I think it has something to do with MMR or bonus pool or something. But even then that doesnt explain the insane win ratio :D.
Whatever though, gz to Naniwa.
HES NOT JUST A DECENT PLAYER, christ. People need to do some research before they just assume stuff. He has never gone to an MLG, nor dreamhack (since it was the first time they had sc2). He has ALWAYS been regarded as a top protoss, but because of his huge urge to BM and fuck up his career, he has been banned from multiple leagues and kicked from former team. Naniwa is rly fking good, and he dosnt just 1base like everyone says. Ive seen him beating morrow in a Brood War like macro game, and i have seen many macro replays from him.
People just naturally think, or "want" to think bad about him, because of his (general) childish and idiotic behaviour. I dont even like him, but hes not bad. And with low MMR to begin with, and insanely high number of points gained for a period, its not THAT surprising, I bet any other top player smurfing could pull something similar off if they wanted to.
Inspiring post - are we actually certain this is Naniwa? or Sjow? Or Jesus?
It's impressive to see what can be accomplished with a bonus pool of 2000 .. but seriously; 4k points in a few weeks is ridiculous and kudos to whoever this is (majority says Naniwa, but who really knows?) i would really love to see some replays of this guy!!
if the division has nothing to do with matchmaking, how come it affects ladder point? if he was in another division, he would still matched with same ppl and would get same points, wouldnt he? assume you are in worst division, yet you match with guys from best divisions, why u need to have +300 points to get even with them. i dont get how division works
On January 05 2011 06:38 Dudemeister wrote: theres rumours of him maphacking though
afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2 and why in the world with naniwa use it. ive played against him myself a couple of times recently and hes winning because he plays good enough to do so. people are just being ignorant to think hes only cheesing or maphacking or whatever because they dont like him or because he dont perform well in tournaments
but many just see this as a practice tool. i leave games i shouldnt and i make decisions i wouldnt in tournaments because thats what i want to do to learn. i test around alot. example: i can loose so many stupid games vs bad gamers where i just keep overmaking drones every time. even if he 2port rush me every single game i wont use mindgames or previous games to account and prepare for it before scouting it. just after each game i simply adjust some details and losing means i can improve and if im winning it usually means im having ineffective practice xd
i think if everyone tried their best to win their games rather than learn in the ladder the entire ladder rankings would become alot different. im not saying naniwa wouldnt be at rank 1 im just saying this isnt something you should judge too too much how good or bad a player is ^^
On January 05 2011 06:40 MorroW wrote: its great and good job to naniwa, first in ladder is first in ladder. if wins the top players :p
but many just see this as a practice tool. i leave games i shouldnt and i make decisions i wouldnt in tournaments because thats what i want to do to learn. i test around alot. example: i can loose so many stupid games vs bad gamers where i just keep overmaking drones every time. even if he 2port rush me every single game i wont use mindgames or previous games to account and prepare for it before scouting it. just after each game i simply adjust some details and losing means i can improve and if im winning it usually means im having ineffective practice xd
i think if everyone tried their best to win their games rather than learn in the ladder the entire ladder rankings would become alot different. im not saying naniwa wouldnt be at rank 1 im just saying this isnt something you should judge too too much how good or bad a player is ^^
Thanks for posting Morrow, I'm glad that you can shed some light on how professional players use the ladder. I've known this for some time, but its obvious that many people here haven't. There's a reason that a lot of pro-player streams seem to have such crazy all-in, over-aggressive, over-economic, or just really weird quick games. They are doing mass testing and not really giving half a shit. I'd go so far as to say that professionals use the ladder as a means to test the game, not themselves. And this is especially true if lets say...oGsMC was to match IMMVP. Both players would do their absolute best to reveal as little as possible about their recent advancements and discoveries in their play. They aren't going to use a new slick build order they came up with, because then the other one will analyze the shit out of it and make it way less powerful in a tournament environment.
TLDR: Professionals try to win while revealing as little as possible. And revealing as little as possible takes priority over winning.
On January 05 2011 06:55 waffleduck wrote: Top players play to improve and play macro style. He cheesed and 1 base'd all in. Anyone can win a Bo1 against anyone else and thats what he did.
naniwa has solid macro, naniwa barely ever cheese... you must be blind.
btw grats nani even tho its not 4k mmr its still nice work sickest ratio eva !
I find it funny that everyone wants to jump and piss on naniwa just because he has a bad reputation in the sc2-community, if qxc,tyler or TLO was first to 4K and it was a bunch over their "real" points noone would say a word, everyone would be happy an congratulary obviously.
Also hilariously fun to see people saying he's just average,cheesing and not good at all. the wins he has are all against top europe players, his MMR is still the biggest in the world, therefor he is matched up against the best players.
And I like how people are trying to blame nani for getting a easy division, like its his fault somehow.
On January 05 2011 07:00 lolwhat wrote: I find it funny that everyone wants to jump and piss on naniwa just because he has a bad reputation in the sc2-community, if qxc,tyler or TLO was first to 4K and it was a bunch over their "real" points noone would say a word, everyone would be happy an congratulary obviously.
Also hilariously fun to see people saying he's just average,cheesing and not good at all. the wins he has are all against top europe players, his MMR is still the biggest in the world, therefor he is matched up against the best players.
And I like how people are trying to blame nani for getting a easy division, like its his fault somehow.
This is all true, but it should also be a wake up call to Naniwa. He's a really good player, he gets some solid wins, but there is still a really big resistance to his image and prestige because he is such a complete jackass. Its incredibly detrimental to his career for him to be like he is.
on another note, is there any explanation as to why the ladder system is structured like it is? It really makes no sense to me, divisions / bonus pool / MMR etc etc
There's a great post explaining all the things about the ladder and why it's there. I don't remember where i read it... I think it was in the same one where it's explained that Divisions have different tiers? If you find it and read it, I think you'll have a whole new positive perspective, and give a nod to Blizzard (again). Basically, some good stuff about the system: It's "noob-friendly". Playing more = higher on ladder. Generally, it's more encouraging and motivating. And so for many people, fun, rewarding, and... fun
Also, if it's Naniwa... (who the heck is he haha) shame that apparently he BMs a lot? Like IdrA but to the extreme.
Respect naniwa, even though some might say "its not like real 4000 points", i must admit that those critisism comes from one corner of the community (root/american). I remember when nani had a little argue with whole root gaming. I think that feud still exists, t_t.
I think your ladder journey has ended, now go on and win TSL 3!
I fucking love naniwa. As I said before in the Boyardee thread, He is a fantastic palyer, with the single largest ego I have ever seen. I don't care that he bm's people when he loses, its hilarious. I'll always be a fan of his despite what everyone else thinks...
From what I've seen recently (on streams) naniwa seems to be better behaved, so maybe he has turned over a new leaf - or it could be hes bm'ing people all the time still - but the only thing I saw was was in the ZOTAC Cup (?) where the admins fucked him and he was right to be pissed although he should have just walked away IMO.
On January 05 2011 07:08 Mohdoo wrote: He's a really good player, he gets some solid wins, but there is still a really big resistance to his image and prestige because he is such a complete jackass. Its incredibly detrimental to his career for him to be like he is.
Image and prestige has nothing to do with career chances. You don't win tournaments by being the nice guy. You win because you play good and you get invited because you play good. All you need to do is not to bm within the tournament/break the rules. So no problems at all. People need to stop overreacting, like BM somehow lowers your apm by 300..
On January 05 2011 07:00 lolwhat wrote: if qxc,tyler or TLO was first to 4K and it was a bunch over their "real" points noone would say a word, everyone would be happy an congratulary obviously.
I honestly doubt that. I personally think those divison tiers are stupid. Not because it's "Anti-Naniwa" but, because they lead to an even more confusing ladder system. And I dont see _any_ benefits from having division tiers.
But congratulations to Naniwa for getting #1. It's still a gread accomplisment for someone who has been underestimated from a lot of people.
On January 05 2011 07:08 Mohdoo wrote: He's a really good player, he gets some solid wins, but there is still a really big resistance to his image and prestige because he is such a complete jackass. Its incredibly detrimental to his career for him to be like he is.
Image and prestige has nothing to do with career chances. You don't win tournaments by being the nice guy. You win because you play good and you get invited because you play good. All you need to do is not to bm within the tournament/break the rules. So no problems at all. People need to stop overreacting, like BM somehow lowers your apm by 300..
well he did break tournament rules before, and not just a few...
but anyways, i kinda look forward to seeing more from naniwa. i never experienced him friendly, but this display of skill redeems him a bit. i hope he manners up one day so i and we all can fully appreciate his sc2 skill (if he continues to show it).
on another note, is there any explanation as to why the ladder system is structured like it is? It really makes no sense to me, divisions / bonus pool / MMR etc etc
There's a great post explaining all the things about the ladder and why it's there. I don't remember where i read it... I think it was in the same one where it's explained that Divisions have different tiers? If you find it and read it, I think you'll have a whole new positive perspective, and give a nod to Blizzard (again). Basically, some good stuff about the system: It's "noob-friendly". Playing more = higher on ladder. Generally, it's more encouraging and motivating. And so for many people, fun, rewarding, and... fun
Also, if it's Naniwa... (who the heck is he haha) shame that apparently he BMs a lot? Like IdrA but to the extreme.
On January 05 2011 06:38 Dudemeister wrote: theres rumours of him maphacking though
afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2 and why in the world with naniwa use it. ive played against him myself a couple of times recently and hes winning because he plays good enough to do so. people are just being ignorant to think hes only cheesing or maphacking or whatever because they dont like him or because he dont perform well in tournaments
but many just see this as a practice tool. i leave games i shouldnt and i make decisions i wouldnt in tournaments because thats what i want to do to learn. i test around alot. example: i can loose so many stupid games vs bad gamers where i just keep overmaking drones every time. even if he 2port rush me every single game i wont use mindgames or previous games to account and prepare for it before scouting it. just after each game i simply adjust some details and losing means i can improve and if im winning it usually means im having ineffective practice xd
i think if everyone tried their best to win their games rather than learn in the ladder the entire ladder rankings would become alot different. im not saying naniwa wouldnt be at rank 1 im just saying this isnt something you should judge too too much how good or bad a player is ^^
Sorry man, but yeah maphacks certainly do exist for SC2. I have only played against one guy who I know for sure was using one, though I won both games vs him. All the map and unit information for all players is stored on each players computer during the game for performance reasons, so its just a matter of knowing which memory locations to monitor, and figuring out the format of the data. There was a thread on here by some hacker who elaborated on how easy it is to create a map hack. Apparently, you can also get all the replay tabs in game as well, like the production and unit tabs, which allow you to know the build of your opponent without having to look at his base.
On January 05 2011 05:51 HypaSnipa wrote: I cant even understand the direction this thread has taken. He is 4000 points on the blizzard ladder. Thats all there is to it. Doesnt matter if another website says its 3700, doesnt matter if he cheesed some games and macroed others.
A wins a win and 70-80% wins is astonishing especially at the top of the EU ladder. Grats to Naniwa, drop all the jealousy you freaks :o
Dont think i could have put it any better myself!
You two have you gotta be just plain dumb to not understand. I can't even find it in my heart to try to explain it further to help you understand. And honestly it's not a good idea to publicly proclaim your inability to understand something that lots of other people understand and then boldly go in the opposite direction, as if this thing you don't understand is unimportant.
On January 05 2011 06:38 Dudemeister wrote: theres rumours of him maphacking though
afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2 and why in the world with naniwa use it. ive played against him myself a couple of times recently and hes winning because he plays good enough to do so. people are just being ignorant to think hes only cheesing or maphacking or whatever because they dont like him or because he dont perform well in tournaments
but many just see this as a practice tool. i leave games i shouldnt and i make decisions i wouldnt in tournaments because thats what i want to do to learn. i test around alot. example: i can loose so many stupid games vs bad gamers where i just keep overmaking drones every time. even if he 2port rush me every single game i wont use mindgames or previous games to account and prepare for it before scouting it. just after each game i simply adjust some details and losing means i can improve and if im winning it usually means im having ineffective practice xd
i think if everyone tried their best to win their games rather than learn in the ladder the entire ladder rankings would become alot different. im not saying naniwa wouldnt be at rank 1 im just saying this isnt something you should judge too too much how good or bad a player is ^^
Sorry man, but yeah maphacks certainly do exist for SC2. I have only played against one guy who I know for sure was using one, though I won both games vs him. All the map and unit information for all players is stored on each players computer during the game for performance reasons, so its just a matter of knowing which memory locations to monitor, and figuring out the format of the data. There was a thread on here by some hacker who elaborated on how easy it is to create a map hack. Apparently, you can also get all the replay tabs in game as well, like the production and unit tabs, which allow you to know the build of your opponent without having to look at his base.
Indeed, there's been loads of recorded instances of map hacking. root.catz, psystarcraft both have replays against some.
Even with a smurf, I find it hard to believe anyone could maintain an 80% win rate while making it to the top. I'm skeptical. It'd be nice if there were replays of this guy somewhere.
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
Even if bonus pool were scrapped, he'd still lose the same amount of points, he just wouldn't get as many for winning.
I don't think the bonus pool is the problem. Since hes lucky enough to be in a division modifier of +315, his real rating is 3685, which is not unexpected or unlikely because he is a progamer.
NearPerfection, you do realize that without the modifier, he's still on top of EU, correct? I just think it's weird how he got so high with that amount of games, that's kind of hard to believe.
Congrats to Naniwa, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the result of the design flaw in the ladder. Recently a lot of people are having issues with their MMR and point gains/losses being incorrect. In order for Naniwa to get 4k points from 177 wins, he would have to be favored every single game. With a win/loss record like that, why is he still a low MMR player playing vs high MMR players?
But anyways, Naniwa still did a good job in this achievement.
On January 05 2011 10:02 NearPerfection wrote: I don't think the bonus pool is the problem. Since hes lucky enough to be in a division modifier of +315, his real rating is 3685, which is not unexpected or unlikely because he is a progamer.
Or he simply played intentionally poorly, though good enough to get promoted during his platinum rounds to get into a low tier diamond division.
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
You two have you gotta be just plain dumb to not understand. I can't even find it in my heart to try to explain it further to help you understand. And honestly it's not a good idea to publicly proclaim your inability to understand something that lots of other people understand and then boldly go in the opposite direction, as if this thing you don't understand is unimportant.
Tyler, i do get your point, and i do understand. And btw, is 24 pts / game in average really that high? I think he catched the mmr of hes way before ppl think, since averaging 40-50 pts a game in the beginning is getting him very far very quickly. And the qoute you just did of me, i see now was a missquote. I didnt mean to qoute the first paragraph. I was not talking to you at that time, i was talking to the 123980 trashtalkers in this thread, bashing Nani for absolutely nothing but playing the game, and playing it good.
On November 18 2010 18:12 Wargizmo wrote: I was thinking about this today, and I think I understand why Blizzard do it the way they do.
Firstly it's obvious that they want divisions to have all players of roughly equal skill right? That's why some divisions have stronger players and some weaker, but why would that be? surely for accuracy's sake it would be better to have a sample of good players, mediocre players and weaker players in each division so that I could see my division rank and have an accurate idea of how good I am... maybe, but this is not Blizzard's goal and never has been.
Look at the players in your division, check out the players near the top and then the ones at the middle and then the ones at the bottom, notice a pattern? it's almost universal in every division that there is a direct relationship between games played and division rank.
If everyone in the division is of the same skill level, then the only way people are going to have more points than others is by playing more games. Your almost NEVER see a guy with 100 games ranked higher than someone with 200 games in the same division. Why? because if the guy with 100 games was significantly better he would be put in a higher tier of division to begin with.
Why would they do this? It's really ingenious. Basically anyone in the entire world can be #1 (or at least top 10) in their division if they just play enough games (with the possible exception of the very highest tier), the system has made sure that people who may not be that good are put in a division with others who aren't that good and can still feel that they are actually good.
The points modification is just the icing on the cake, people would kind of feel something was up if they were top of their division on only 1500 points... it would be really obvious about the weaker divisions, but if that gets inflated to 1815 points then it doesn't seem so bad, and certainly the guy who played 1000 games to get to the top of his E-class division can look at his point total and consider himself among the best in the world.
End result - people have a reason to keep playing, people are constantly rising in their division as long as they play enough games, and points totals remain roughly consistent with people who play more games = have more points.
When you start a new account and win almost all your games you should ofcause go up in ladder very very fast until to reach player at your skill and only lose few points against them until you get there.... You should be getting +45 points and only lose 1-2 when his playing against the highest ranked players until he reach same points.
All his last games have been against top players and he have won almost all and that is why his ranking higher then all right now even when you take away bonus pool points. His the players with the highest MMR/points right now on EU and thats not the effect of bonus pool or anything that is wrong with the ladder.
If there was no bonus pool he would only get half the points yes.... but all ppl would also have alot less points so it would take the same time to get to the top.... I dont even get why so many dont get that.
When you make a new account your MMR goes up very very fast and you will be playing top players if you win many games but ofcause you should not be loseing alot points to them until you get to theri point lvl.
On January 05 2011 11:18 TaKemE wrote: When you start a new account and win almost all your games you should ofcause go up in ladder very very fast until to reach player at your skill and only lose few points against them until you get there.... You should be getting +45 points and only lose 1-2 when his playing against the highest ranked players until he reach same points.
All his last games have been against top players and he have won almost all and that is why his ranking higher then all right now even when you take away bonus pool points. His the players with the highest MMR/points right now on EU and thats not the effect of bonus pool or anything that is wrong with the ladder.
If there was no bonus pool he would only get half the points yes.... but all ppl would also have alot less points so would take the same time to get to the top.... I dont even get why so many dont get that.
When you make a new account your MMR goes up very very fast and you will be playing top players if you win many games but ofcause you should not be loseing alot points to them until you get to theri point lvl.
pretty much what this guy said. hate him or love him hes playing top players now and still has a great record. definitely nothing to sneeze at
Basically, by starting a new account, he's "saving" his bonus pool points by having a high MMR and low rating, and beating higher players. So he gains points rapidly through playing unfavored matches, which minimizes use of the bonus pool.
Once he reaches high level games, he still has his bonus pool left. Whereas people who played for longer would have very little left.
Once the bonus pool is used up, he will leak his extra points to other players, but it hasn't been long enough.
On January 05 2011 11:38 igotmyown wrote: Basically, by starting a new account, he's "saving" his bonus pool points by having a high MMR and low rating, and beating higher players. So he gains points rapidly through playing unfavored matches, which minimizes use of the bonus pool.
Once he reaches high level games, he still has his bonus pool left. Whereas people who played for longer would have very little left.
Once the bonus pool is used up, he will leak his extra points to other players, but it hasn't been long enough.
Thats wrong because when you reach the top you will have used all your bonus pool and you cant have any left (other then the once you get each day) and ofcause he should be at the top when he wins almost every game against the top players. He havent been getting points from bonus pool in most of his last wins but his almost not loseing any games.
Bonus pool give you 2xpoints no matter if you are favored or not so if his playing top players and getting +40 points or lower players and getting +20 points dosent matter anything. Yes he would lose more points if he lost to the lesser ranked players but the chance of him loseing is also alot lower.
If you look at points and takeing away all the points both top 2 players have got from their bonus pool it looks like this: MeatyOwlLegs 1517 ( 1,832) LiquidTLO 1,449
So I've read thru this thread and have come to a few conclusions:
1. because of naniwas division he has reached the 4k point mark 2. naniwa is still a good player, so props to him getting to the 4k point mark 3. he's ranked 1st in the word in terms of points, but as we understand it's not such a great achevement (but at the same time, it kinda is cuz u gotta be really good to get there) due to point 1, but point 2 is still valid (as it's a fact)
So all I see is ppl getting mad because he's rank 1 when he shouldn't be up that high. Shouldn't we be turning this into a lolfest cuz he got there instead of hating?
I dunno about you guys but since we know Naniwa is all about the BM. Don't you think his 4k points is ultimate trollolol to the sc community? And what he was probably aiming for anyways?
On January 05 2011 05:45 drag_ wrote: 26-2 is totally fishy. BW progamers at their peaks of dominance struggle to maintain 70% win rates. There is definitely something fishy. It's also hard to believe how a guy who struggles to place well in tournaments miraculously discovered how to destroy all the top EU players.
Progaming win % and ladder win % are entirely different matters...
I think it's sad that this achievement was gained by such a low manner player with such a new account. Would have been pleasant to see one of the real pros on their main account reach this milestone first.
On January 05 2011 13:47 VoiceOfDecember wrote: So I've read thru this thread and have come to a few conclusions:
1. because of naniwas division he has reached the 4k point mark 2. naniwa is still a good player, so props to him getting to the 4k point mark 3. he's ranked 1st in the word in terms of points, but as we understand it's not such a great achevement (but at the same time, it kinda is cuz u gotta be really good to get there) due to point 1, but point 2 is still valid (as it's a fact)
So all I see is ppl getting mad because he's rank 1 when he shouldn't be up that high. Shouldn't we be turning this into a lolfest cuz he got there instead of hating?
I dunno about you guys but since we know Naniwa is all about the BM. Don't you think his 4k points is ultimate trollolol to the sc community? And what he was probably aiming for anyways?
I proclaim Naniwa as a successfull troll
Add his amazing win ratio and that he has increased his profile 10fold to your list and your there
as amazing as it seems to be the first to 4k pts, if you look @ the top ladder hes the only one with even under 600 games. I find it weird how the system works in favour so much of new user id's when players like oGsMC and iMMvP are way behind in pts but most likely are much better.
Just a footnote for the people saying BM doesn't harm your career as a Pro gamer.. as a lot of your funding will come from sponsors.. why are they going to sponsor someone nobody likes? Doesn't make financial sense.
Congrets Naniwa. 4k aint easy feet. How funny these ppl that BM here. Seems like there isn't any difference between them and the one they are complaining about BM. LOL
On January 05 2011 16:44 frequency wrote: ITT: People are jealous that someone they don't like (even though it's only rumored to be Nani) is first in the world in ladder points.
Jealousy? Seriously, no. I just have a problem with major douchebags setting records and being figureheads for the game. Also, it's not a rumor; check this thread for multiple sources of proof.
There's nothing to like about this guy, there's no reason to cheer for him. He's approached gaming in the worst way possible, has done pretty much everything wrong he could and still got away with it, still is being supported in his behaviour and manner. That's ridiculous, it's sad, and it's a shame for the community.
Most people here on TL agree that Esports is something good, an occupation/hobby that could use more popularity and general acceptance. People like Naniwa jeopardize this development, because he's the showcase example of the stereotypical gamer that throws his life, his education and his social contacts away just so he can play more.
Cheer for him all you like, mock people criticizing him if you need to, but in the end, you're supporting the wrong person and you know it.
I did a little research, maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can draw some conclusions. I am unable to, the ladder system is very confusing to me. I've always struggled with math, but still these numbers/graphs look weird to me. Perhaps someone well versed in mathematics who has a better grasp of the ladder can use this data to shed some light on this subject.
I went to sc2ranks and pulled up the top global players according to [point * ratio] on sc2 ranks. The 4th player on the list was ret, who can probably serve as a sort of control. His abilities are unquestionable. However some of the numbers look weird to me (how can people fly past a player like ret in points?). Please, don't call me stupid, I am just trying to pull some relevant data into the discussion. There seems to be a lot of random assumptions going on here.
First of all, if you look at Meatyowllegs 3v3 games, Nani is a teammate one of them. + Show Spoiler +
So we can at least say for sure, nani knows who's account this is
That out of the way, lets see the graph of our control, Ret. He came up as #4 globally on sc2ranks when sorted by [points*ratio] + Show Spoiler +
(Red line indicates world rank, blue line is pts) Ret enters Diamond approximately oct 23rd with about 1400 pts, 74 days later he is about 3300pts Note: he has not played on this account in the last week
Next this is the graph of Meatowllegs games the #1 player globally (he is on EU server) + Show Spoiler +
Meaty enters diamond near 1000 pts on Nov 1, 64 days ago, now having 4000pts
This is the graph of the player who came up as #2 using the [point * ratio] sort on sc2 ranks, he is on the US server named "Goody" + Show Spoiler +
Goody enters diamond near 1200 pts on Dec 25th, 11 days ago, now having 3500 pts! This seems weird to me
This is the graph of the #3 player "Kichi" who is on the EU server + Show Spoiler +
Kichi enters diamond near 1500 pts Nov 7, 59 days ago, now having 3200 pts However, Look at the drastic point gains
Well that's my contribution to the enigma of the point system, does anyone else see something wrong with these pictures?? (especially kichi's)
However, Look at the drastic point gains Did he really gain 786 points in 1 game? Or am I reading this wrong?
Well that's my contribution to the enigma of the point system, does anyone else see something wrong with these pictures?? (especially kichi's)
[/spoiler]
Idk why SC2 Ranks does that sort of thing but my profile has large point gains in that section as well. I don't ladder a ton, but I do see point gains 'between games' of +74, +52, etc. There was a +100something last week. But those point games seem to mirror how many points I gained in one day of laddering over 3-5 wins or w/e. I can tell you with confidence I've NEVER gained 74 points for one win, even though that section of sc2ranks looks that way.
Gotta be something funky with how they run the site. Must run all point gains within a very short time period together for brevity's sake since that section is so small.
He returned to his old account to do some 1v1 and got a pretty good winstreak.
that would be impressive but it looks like he's sitting at 2.6k points after that huge win streak, which is basically considered mid-diamond or so. if he was mostly playing players in that echelon of skill then im honestly not surprised he racked up that many consecutive wins
Hmm... Haven't seen him play many times before but when he did I thought he seemed to be on a bit of a lower level than most top EU players. So like others, I've been trying to rationalize how he'd be able to get to 4,000 points.
My biggest criticism of the situation is the low amount of games played. Just as a Bo7 is more indicative of skill than a Bo1, I'd imagine the mere 223 games played may be giving a less than accurate measure of ability. Especially when you consider that a portion of these games would have been played against lower level players as well. I suppose it is the bonus pool which allows for such sudden high ratings so I guess I will join in on that side of the argument.
If something somewhat close to this win ratio/points (adding in inflation of course) were able to be maintained over a few hundred more games, I'd be much more willing to concede this to be a deserving achievement. But as it stands, I feel his ability on this account has not been extensively tested enough to rule out the effects of randomness/luck.
On another note, I really hate that we have to call these points rather than rating. Perhaps such a situation like this could dissuade blizzard from using this bonus pool system and use a more standard rating system.
If this truly is deserving, though, congratulations to him. But if he is as bad of a person as people are claiming, I really hope he tries to change his ways.
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
Damn, Im diamond in 1v1,2v2,3v3,4v4, No wonder I keep getting 2200 to 2600 pt diamonds in 1v1 when I'm only a 1000 pt diamond (makes it kinda tough for me to advance!) Well, I'm off to de-rank all my team games to bronze!
Its not true. You do not have a shared MMR. However: When you start a new league/new team, the system will look to your other MMR's when finding the placement matches.
He returned to his old account to do some 1v1 and got a pretty good winstreak.
that would be impressive but it looks like he's sitting at 2.6k points after that huge win streak, which is basically considered mid-diamond or so. if he was mostly playing players in that echelon of skill then im honestly not surprised he racked up that many consecutive wins
2.6k has nothing to do with it. He has been inactive on that account and if he was top Diamond when he quit (very likely) then his MMR is still among the best on EU.
I think it's a nice experiment from Naniwa. It shows that the ladder in his current state doesn't exactly show how good you really are. I really hope this will get better with the master and grand master league. Blizzard please take notes from this! I want to know exactly how good / bad I am. Atm if you are a 3k diamond, you don't know if you really are at 3k level.
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
Damn, Im diamond in 1v1,2v2,3v3,4v4, No wonder I keep getting 2200 to 2600 pt diamonds in 1v1 when I'm only a 1000 pt diamond (makes it kinda tough for me to advance!) Well, I'm off to de-rank all my team games to bronze!
if this is true, the ladder is just as bad as wc3 2on2/3on3/4on4 ladder...
Ok, so he is in same division like me. Agree about that that 4k points are really like 3700 points but even like this he is the best in EU/Global. He has the best win ration in top 100 global. About matchmaking with this ration he played the top 200 players in EU after 30-40 matches. I checked his match history and he played more than half of hes last 30 games with names like TLO, Morrow, Mana, Brat_OK, Sjow and he won 26 from 28 or smth like that. Again he has the biggest MMR atm in EU so he is almost favored in all of his last matches, that is why he is getting less than 10 points on hes last games, even 3 or 4 points for win. Hes bonus pool is empty since the last 20 matches. All we have to see know is if he will play again on Nani account and he will rise and be first on that account also than anyone will agree that he is the best (with Nani I guess he is in a higher rated league -older one). I don`t know why Tyler and QCX, don`t get me wrong - you got all my respect cause you are great players are so pissed off about hes achievement. Even without that 365 points he is the first. Morrow had the best state about him : He is taking prob any game seriously, but he beats morrow in macro game because he played better. I agree with that a lot of top players are laddering for testing BO and doesn't take the game 100% seriously. Anyhow congrats to Naniwa. He deserves to be there and I`m looking forward to see him wining tournaments and post replays, maybe also streaming so you will see that he is not that bad mannered.
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
that cant be true me and a mate play vs gold/plat in 2v2, and when i played some 1v1's i had bronze opps (and so did he)
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
that cant be true me and a mate play vs gold/plat in 2v2, and when i played some 1v1's i had bronze opps (and so did he)
It's true.
It's why you can get Diamond in 1v1 by playing 200 games, but play team games for a few hours and you will be diamond after 15 games.
His MMR is/were not low at all even if your been away for very long and your MMR drop a bit as soon as you win like 10 games in a row you will be playing the top players that fast.
I dont get why anyone can even say his first because something is wrong with the ladder system.. when he beats the other ppl in top 10 many times shouldnt he be ahead of them?.....
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Did you even read the thread that you keep posting? You realize he is still in first in points after the division modifier, correct? It's not like the people he is playing are worse because of his division. He is still playing the best players possible.
And to people complaining about bonus pool. He's still in first even if you subtract the pool from everyone. Stop being so stupid.
DIMAGA is the only Zerg in top 10 There are 2 Random players in top 15. TLO and aAaNerchio MeatyOwlLeg(formerly known as Puckelrygg) have over 4000 points in the ladder
pretty sadisfying top 10 i must say Dimaga takes 1 place, TLO is back in the top, White-Ra holds his top ranking, and all players are known players(MeatyOwlLegs is supposed to be NaNiwa)
Edit: I'm assuming he kept doing placement matches in order to get in the worst possible division before starting to ladder. Quite pathetic actually.
What the fuck? Why would even write that? It makes no sense at all. Assuming something, then jump over to how pathetic that assumption is? Now thats really pathetic.
I agree his conclusion is rather bias but his actual findings aren't. There isn't a player yet at 4k points. Since points across divisions aren't the same the "masters" is the true reflection of how many points he has. He's good, he's number 1 but he's not at 4k points.
Yeah, sorry perhaps I was a little bit harsh. But it really bothers me that someone can get away with this and make it seem as if he earned 4000 points already.
Did you even read the thread that you keep posting? You realize he is still in first in points after the division modifier, correct? It's not like the people he is playing are worse because of his division. He is still playing the best players possible.
And to people complaining about bonus pool. He's still in first even if you subtract the pool from everyone. Stop being so stupid.
DIMAGA is the only Zerg in top 10 There are 2 Random players in top 15. TLO and aAaNerchio MeatyOwlLeg(formerly known as Puckelrygg) have over 4000 points in the ladder
pretty sadisfying top 10 i must say Dimaga takes 1 place, TLO is back in the top, White-Ra holds his top ranking, and all players are known players(MeatyOwlLegs is supposed to be NaNiwa)
He's not first in points.
Thats old news, that list is a couple of days old, as you can see on the players stats.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
ohhh lawdy, DotA chat was amazing. the better you got, the more intense the BM. once you started playing in leagues like TDA or higher, mistakes were met by vitriolic rage and venomous hate from your teammates. good times, good times.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
I think you got it the wrong way around! Look at any community where it is socially acceptable to call the player you just beat a "fucking loser faggot" or similar and i guarantee that the average age in the community wont be above 16.
All the kids rage and BM because they are immature and do not actually understand sportsmanship and no one on the internat can actually "raise" them and explain proper manners. If you get upset after losing a game in a bad way that is good! It shows you care and that is the right spirit to have. But that is really not at allt he same as being BM, if you are mature enough you have some kind of self-control.
People who BM should just go back to "whatever is the currrent rage among 14-year olds" (prolly SC2 now that i think about it *sigh*).
On January 05 2011 06:40 MorroW wrote: afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2
o.O
Figure blizz' didn't ban 50K players for being bad mannered assholes lol
Took me all of 30 seconds to find a working maphack for 1.13 that toggles player selections, camera movement etc. it would be very very easy for any player to toggle it on to check your build and toggle it off.
When he went forge first at his nexus vs TLO my initial reaction was kinda like "uhh this guy is good?" but maybe early pools are super popular on Basin I have no idea, haven't played this game in a long ass time. I couldn't imagine wanting to cannon the nat on basin since they'd just counter you.
Not saying he cheats, I just found the game peculiar
On January 05 2011 01:20 donut boi wrote: MeatyOwlLegs... it's not often I come across a name that instantly strikes me as being totally baller
but yea hes abusing the bonus pool shit... i was watching drewbie's stream where he was playing on his smurf... basically he always played favored ppl and gained 40-50 points per win and lost 0-1 points when he lost. It is quite silly that accounts like these receive no penalty for losing
you know whats funny, the fact that i have 800 bonus pool points and have an extremely hard time getting further ahead. im currently rated as a 1700 point player. the problem is that i play no one with points less than 2200 and i only gain +9 for beating 2500s. the bonus pool isnt what is wrecking the system, its the hidden skill.
I think people should stop to think that a player cannot improve in one or two month. Maybe he wasn't really a top10 player (although he performed really well in the EPS). In a Dreamhack Interview he said that he didn't know if he'll continue to play SC2, so I assume he didn't play really much before Dreamhack. He also moved back from Germany to Sweden at that time.
As far as I remember he also wanted to be more professional in the future, at least he said that he isn't proud of his unprofessional behavior. Maybe he changed a little bit in behavior and skill, let's wait and see.
On January 06 2011 00:35 vdale wrote: I think people should stop to think that a player cannot improve in one or two month. Maybe he wasn't really a top10 player (although he performed really well in the EPS). In a Dreamhack Interview he said that he didn't know if he'll continue to play SC2, so I assume he didn't play really much before Dreamhack. He also moved back from Germany to Sweden at that time.
As far as I remember he also wanted to be more professional in the future, at least he said that he isn't proud of his unprofessional behavior. Maybe he changed a little bit in behavior and skill, let's wait and see.
I can tell you that naniwa is actually really mannered nowadays and has changed. Feel free to prove me wrong.
By the way, I have seen some really good macro games by MeatyOwlLegs, for example a long 17 nexus build vs morrow on Metalopolis. Oh and grats naniwa!
On January 05 2011 05:13 drewbie.root wrote: its not bonus pool abuse, its more like MMR / ELO or w\e it is abuse. For nani's first 100 games he probably won 48 pts every game and lost 1 point. Then once he hit 3k points or w/e and things balanced out he had lost 0 of his bonus pool to losses (If you have 2000 bonus pool and you never lose until it runs out you will have 4000 pts, but when you lose games it becomes impossible to hit 4000). Also being in a new division probably helped him to not be favored for a long time too T_T
Q: How do these tiers impact matchmaking and points received per game? A: They don't. Matchmaking is determined by your MMR versus your opponent's MMR, and the point values per game is determined by your opponent's MMR versus your adjusted (division modifiers excluded) rating.
from Z_Excalibur's division tiers thread.
As much as I want to believe that his being in a "weak" division contributed toward his point total, it just seems like he somehow kept a relatively low MMR to his opponents long enough to get those +48 games in a decent number.
Bleh, I hope it doesn't become a trend for a pro to get a new account before a reset or when bonus is pool is turned off (something blizzard plans to do in future ladders) and try to rush up to some absurd amount of points on a relatively low amount of games. Just feels like a complete mockery of the ladder for the people with games in the thousands sitting around 2900 and 3000
He kept a low MMR because that account is shared by his friend who does a lot of team games. MMR is one and the same for 1v1 as for team games (which kinda sux).
that cant be true me and a mate play vs gold/plat in 2v2, and when i played some 1v1's i had bronze opps (and so did he)
It's true.
It's why you can get Diamond in 1v1 by playing 200 games, but play team games for a few hours and you will be diamond after 15 games.
On January 05 2011 06:40 MorroW wrote: afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2
o.O
Figure blizz' didn't ban 50K players for being bad mannered assholes lol
Took me all of 30 seconds to find a working maphack for 1.13 that toggles player selections, camera movement etc. it would be very very easy for any player to toggle it on to check your build and toggle it off.
When he went forge first at his nexus vs TLO my initial reaction was kinda like "uhh this guy is good?" but maybe early pools are super popular on Basin I have no idea, haven't played this game in a long ass time. I couldn't imagine wanting to cannon the nat on basin since they'd just counter you.
Not saying he cheats, I just found the game peculiar
TLO is known for going 12 pool in any matchup on most maps. Don't think I've really seen him go hatch first more than once or twice.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
What the hell are you talking about? CoD community is probably the most BM racist community there is, and it consists of 12-17 year olds.
I dont like BM because it just makes the player seem like an idiot. If he cant handle losing then i dont like him. I love to see BM players lose though. Your logic is so flawed i'm forced to believe you were being sarcastic. And btw, EVERYONE was around in DOTA times, you act as if most people are below 20 when infact it's the complete opposite.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
What the hell are you talking about? CoD community is probably the most BM racist community there is, and it consists of 12-17 year olds.
I dont like BM because it just makes the player seem like an idiot. If he cant handle losing then i dont like him. I love to see BM players lose though. Your logic is so flawed i'm forced to believe you were being sarcastic. And btw, EVERYONE was around in DOTA times, you act as if most people are below 20 when infact it's the complete opposite.
the cod comunity wasnt like this a few years ago .....
On January 05 2011 06:40 MorroW wrote: afaik maphacks barely exists in sc2
o.O
Figure blizz' didn't ban 50K players for being bad mannered assholes lol
Took me all of 30 seconds to find a working maphack for 1.13 that toggles player selections, camera movement etc. it would be very very easy for any player to toggle it on to check your build and toggle it off.
When he went forge first at his nexus vs TLO my initial reaction was kinda like "uhh this guy is good?" but maybe early pools are super popular on Basin I have no idea, haven't played this game in a long ass time. I couldn't imagine wanting to cannon the nat on basin since they'd just counter you.
Not saying he cheats, I just found the game peculiar
TLO is known for going 12 pool in any matchup on most maps. Don't think I've really seen him go hatch first more than once or twice.
yeah I am definitely not accusing him after one game. Cheating will always exist online though
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
I think you got it the wrong way around! Look at any community where it is socially acceptable to call the player you just beat a "fucking loser faggot" or similar and i guarantee that the average age in the community wont be above 16.
All the kids rage and BM because they are immature and do not actually understand sportsmanship and no one on the internat can actually "raise" them and explain proper manners. If you get upset after losing a game in a bad way that is good! It shows you care and that is the right spirit to have. But that is really not at allt he same as being BM, if you are mature enough you have some kind of self-control.
People who BM should just go back to "whatever is the currrent rage among 14-year olds" (prolly SC2 now that i think about it *sigh*).
I'm afraid i have to disagree. Behaving in a "bad" way is not necessarily linked to the age. Take Quakelive for example. I assume most of the players are well above 16, in fact i know a lot of Quakelivers between 25 and 35. And stuff that is considered as beeing "bm" in the SC Community is really not worth mentioning for most QL Players.
As i came to SC2 during the beta in march and started to look into the community i was utterly suprised of the standards for "good behavior". Its like coming from a shabby hotdog stand to a 4-star-restaurant. Suddenly you have to obey this code of behaviour that you are not used to. For me, i am totally fine with beeing called a "nub" or beeing "lol"ed at. The same way i throw out the occasional "lol" myself. Of course i am fine with players leaving without "gg", why should that bother me? Most of the times i even find it quite amusing.
So eventually i figured i wouldn't write anything in the chat at all, but even thats considered bm by most players. I mean come on, give me a break. Good manners are important for the pro's, as they represent their teams and stuff, but for 95% of casuals and amateur players, i don't care at all.
if you can be the first in the world to get 4000 you must have some clue of SC2 regardless of bnets matchmaking system. Its not like you can have a 80% win/loss ration at those ratings by just cheesing.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
What the hell are you talking about? CoD community is probably the most BM racist community there is, and it consists of 12-17 year olds.
I dont like BM because it just makes the player seem like an idiot. If he cant handle losing then i dont like him. I love to see BM players lose though. Your logic is so flawed i'm forced to believe you were being sarcastic. And btw, EVERYONE was around in DOTA times, you act as if most people are below 20 when infact it's the complete opposite.
COD community is basically candy land. DOTA was filled with the most unhelpful and pretentious gamers while Counter Strike had "BM" that would make most SC players cry on the spot. The SC community is so nice and responsive it's kinda sickening because I'm used to such vile gaming communities. Not to even mention Gears of War, that has to be top 3 for worst communities.
Is this what the community has come down to? How low can you get?
Instead of congratulating MeatyOwlLegs for being the first to 4k points, you have to find something wrong with it and spill it out like verbal puke.
It is confirmed that MeatyOwlLegs is Naniwa, a player with a bad rep but who, according to himself and some others, are trying to change. Some even say that he has. Maybe he finally has woken up and realised that his bad behaviour was hurting himself the most.
I can't judge on that, and I won't make any assumptions as to where his manners will be in the future. But please separate the achievement from the image you have of the man behind it. It is also quite sad that people just have to express what they believe as the truth. 80% of the posts in this thread are just dead wrong. Factually wrong, no arguing about it, wrong!
He is 4k but only due to abuse - Proven wrong due to him winning over all the top EU players
He plays Team games badly to lower his mmr for having better gain from playing 1on1 - Blizzard have themselves said that these are not connected besides used to give a starting mmr.
He is maphacking - There is no proof what so ever. And to accuse someone for maphacking when you have no proof must be the lowest thing you can do in the SC community, even lower than actually maphacking imo! Both are despicable acts, but the only one that is proven right now is the despicable accusations, really shame on you.
He cannot have 80% win ratio, he is too bad/unknown/has not enough tournament wins - Naniwa was destroying the EPS before he was kicked out. He has by many been considered the top, or one of the top, EU protoss players since release. Looking at recent tournaments, he has been doing quite well.
It's not possible to have that high win ratio as a pro - Please tell that to DeMuslim.
Also it's quite funny how so many "good" players want to bring down this achievement as if Naniwa was bragging about it all over the world, proclaiming himself as the best player that has ever existed.
Actually when asked the question by rakaka.se he replied: - haha, it's nothing special really, just a fun thing to do and it doesn't mean that I am the best
For those who have been following puckelrygg/meatyowllegs progress you can also tell that his win ratio has actually improved over the last 50 or so games. Which ofc is when he has had the toughest opponents. Opponents like SjoW, MorroW, TLO, Socke etc etc etc... name a top 10 EU player and he has faced him and, most likely, won.
Damn, just close your bigoted eyes and look at the achievement alone, it's pretty darn impressive. Congratulations to the player who achieved this.
that he is cheating his way up is nonsense dont you think that the pros he plays against would notice if that guy would cheat? i mean they would know if they get hardcountered every game and they would start complaining about that thats not the job of the community i think but ...
Isn't it ironic that the naniwa haters who presumably dislike him due to his "bad manners" are being rude/whiny/flat out making stuff up in this thread? I don't personally care about naniwa, but just the fact there are so many obnoxious people always whining about bad manners gives me a reason to root for him
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
What the hell are you talking about? CoD community is probably the most BM racist community there is, and it consists of 12-17 year olds.
I dont like BM because it just makes the player seem like an idiot. If he cant handle losing then i dont like him. I love to see BM players lose though. Your logic is so flawed i'm forced to believe you were being sarcastic. And btw, EVERYONE was around in DOTA times, you act as if most people are below 20 when infact it's the complete opposite.
COD community is basically candy land. DOTA was filled with the most unhelpful and pretentious gamers while Counter Strike had "BM" that would make most SC players cry on the spot. The SC community is so nice and responsive it's kinda sickening because I'm used to such vile gaming communities. Not to even mention Gears of War, that has to be top 3 for worst communities.
What exactly are you trying to imply? You can't possibly want the SC community to be more badmannered can you? Can't we all just agree, the more mannered and mature a community is, the better it is seen from a bigger perspective.
Yeah, these people who cry "bad manners" must have never played another online game before.. Nothing anyone has ever said at the end of a game of SC2 has ever fazed me.
Even at LANs for most other games people talk shit to each other, which I don't think anyone in SC2 has a reputation for yet.
On January 06 2011 02:15 BasedSwag wrote: Yeah, these people who cry "bad manners" must have never played another online game before.. Nothing anyone has ever said at the end of a game of SC2 has ever fazed me.
Even at LANs for most other games people talk shit to each other, which I don't think anyone in SC2 has a reputation for yet.
People like this being the norm at CS or whatever actually speaks against those games' communities. I mean look at this fat raging nerd calling people 'faggots'... If he was laughing & enjoying himself I'd be all for it I call friends all kinds of stuff on bnet and they know that im just kidding and laughing while typing that stuff. Here you have some loser who is actually visibly upset and he expresses himself by acting like a 12 year old.
Thank god these idiots are in the minority in SC2.
On January 06 2011 00:06 floor exercise wrote: When he went forge first at his nexus vs TLO my initial reaction was kinda like "uhh this guy is good?" but maybe early pools are super popular on Basin I have no idea, haven't played this game in a long ass time. I couldn't imagine wanting to cannon the nat on basin since they'd just counter you.
Not saying he cheats, I just found the game peculiar
Haven't played the game for like one month, logged yesterday and still did fairly good in 3 games (even tho I lost them).
I was at around 2K when I stopped playing and now that I relog I find my RTS-crippled skills to match people floating around the 2.8k mark...
Overall skill and strategies haven't improved. At ALL. It is still the same dumbass turtle terran -> banshees or the protoss quick FE camp camp camp -> 4 colossus 1a.
On January 06 2011 00:06 floor exercise wrote: When he went forge first at his nexus vs TLO my initial reaction was kinda like "uhh this guy is good?" but maybe early pools are super popular on Basin I have no idea, haven't played this game in a long ass time. I couldn't imagine wanting to cannon the nat on basin since they'd just counter you.
Not saying he cheats, I just found the game peculiar
Haven't played the game for like one month, logged yesterday and still did fairly good in 3 games (even tho I lost them).
I was at around 2K when I stopped playing and now that I relog I find my RTS-crippled skills to match people floating around the 2.8k mark...
Overall skill and strategies haven't improved. At ALL. It is still the same dumbass turtle terran -> banshees or the protoss quick FE camp camp camp -> 4 colossus 1a.
:/
2.8k is garbage, even people I face at 3.1k are garbage (like garbage-garbage garbage) although it gets slightly better. This game is so new and everyone outside Korea is so bad that it's not very surprising. Good players and good strategies take time to surface.
On January 05 2011 10:49 LittLeD wrote: He's a badmannered little twat. Worse than IdrA even
There goes the pathetic "web 2.0" mentality that everything has to be sanitized so it doesn't even have the CHANCE of offending the most stuck-up kids and their soccer moms.
Wish you were around in DOTA or even pre-retail CS for that matter, you would have a damn clue what real "bad manner" is.
BM is what makes games entertaining. When Idra says to (i forgot who, recently casted by HD tho) another guy that he's a terran scum and should just stfu, most... well... long time players crack it and start laughing.
All the kids rage and call bm and unacceptable and OMG so offensive WEDEMANDSANCTIONS because someone acted like a player should. If you rage and scream and "bm" after getting owned (or not, lol) by some stupid noobish all-in (or something else), it kinds of "make" you a good player because you care enough to get upset about it.
I challenge you to go to youtube, find games where people rage (be it Idra or nani or anyone) and look at the comments. Guaranteed you won't find anyone crying bm who's above 20.
People who get enraged about "bm" should just go back to their pokemon games.
What the hell are you talking about? CoD community is probably the most BM racist community there is, and it consists of 12-17 year olds.
I dont like BM because it just makes the player seem like an idiot. If he cant handle losing then i dont like him. I love to see BM players lose though. Your logic is so flawed i'm forced to believe you were being sarcastic. And btw, EVERYONE was around in DOTA times, you act as if most people are below 20 when infact it's the complete opposite.
the cod comunity wasnt like this a few years ago .....
I miss the old days of Call of Duty 1 and United Offensive, such a gentlemen's game. I hate saying i played them because now i'm associated with the tyrants of CoDMW and what not. Call of Duty used to be such a good game... now...garbage =\
Edit; On topic, I still want to see an inquiry or revision on the whole bonus pool system...
On January 06 2011 01:16 reapsen wrote: I'm afraid i have to disagree. Behaving in a "bad" way is not necessarily linked to the age. Take Quakelive for example. I assume most of the players are well above 16, in fact i know a lot of Quakelivers between 25 and 35. And stuff that is considered as beeing "bm" in the SC Community is really not worth mentioning for most QL Players.
As i came to SC2 during the beta in march and started to look into the community i was utterly suprised of the standards for "good behavior". Its like coming from a shabby hotdog stand to a 4-star-restaurant. Suddenly you have to obey this code of behaviour that you are not used to. For me, i am totally fine with beeing called a "nub" or beeing "lol"ed at. The same way i throw out the occasional "lol" myself. Of course i am fine with players leaving without "gg", why should that bother me? Most of the times i even find it quite amusing.
So eventually i figured i wouldn't write anything in the chat at all, but even thats considered bm by most players. I mean come on, give me a break. Good manners are important for the pro's, as they represent their teams and stuff, but for 95% of casuals and amateur players, i don't care at all.
At long last someone with enough video game background to understand that.
To be honest this virtual bull "code of conduct" is more offensive than any bm anyone could ever throw around.
I mean for people who made their way with video games like quake 1-2-3 tf/dota etc where death threats, racist abuse and totally rampant profanity, the "sc2 bm of not gg'ing or saying noob" is a total laughingstock and it truly puzzles me how anyone could be "offended" by such minor shit ?
Reading over and over again how BM he is and not saying GG is BM, not saying GL HF is BM ... sometimes it is really hard not to laugh how some people think. Really.
Nani's just old school. Nothing that recent or "current generation" players could understand. He isn't BM'ing or being offensive, he's reacting like a normal gamer would.
On January 05 2011 01:32 green.at wrote: its neither sjow nor naniwa -.-
it is naniwa...
and u doesnt "gain" anything of saving ur bonuspool since u are given 1/h anyways, even if u are inactive.. if u buy a account and let it be for several month and then start playing u will ofc be able to climb fast if u already is good.. but still u will after a about 20-30 wins have a high mmr so u will only play against the top, after 40-60 games u will be favoured against everyone and losing a shitload of points..
On January 06 2011 02:49 Saiwa wrote: Reading over and over again how BM he is and not saying GG is BM, not saying GL HF is BM ... sometimes it is really hard not to laugh how some people think. Really.
he is really BM, and not because he doesnt GG always, he trashtalks a lot and is very ignorant towards other competitors and tourney organizers, you can lok up the threads
On January 06 2011 02:49 Saiwa wrote: Reading over and over again how BM he is and not saying GG is BM, not saying GL HF is BM ... sometimes it is really hard not to laugh how some people think. Really.
he is really BM, and not because he doesnt GG always, he trashtalks a lot and is very ignorant towards other competitors and tourney organizers, you can lok up the threads
even if he is so what? doesnt make him play worse idra is "BM" too and yet he has a fanclub with many members, why would u dislike someone who is BM?
@ontopic grats nani hope u will start playing in more tournaments
On January 06 2011 02:49 Saiwa wrote: Reading over and over again how BM he is and not saying GG is BM, not saying GL HF is BM ... sometimes it is really hard not to laugh how some people think. Really.
he is really BM, and not because he doesnt GG always, he trashtalks a lot and is very ignorant towards other competitors and tourney organizers, you can lok up the threads
even if he is so what? doesnt make him play worse idra is "BM" too and yet he has a fanclub with many members, why would u dislike someone who is BM?
@ontopic grats nani hope u will start playing in more tournaments
i personally don't like Nani and like IdrA. There are many types of BM, IdrA's makes things more intresting for me, Nani's feels blatant and lame. Idra is usually upset because of cheese or said imbalance, while Nani's playstyle relies heavily on cheese and he rages pretty much about everything everywhere. But that's just my view point, i m fine with people liking him
On January 06 2011 02:15 BasedSwag wrote: Yeah, these people who cry "bad manners" must have never played another online game before.. Nothing anyone has ever said at the end of a game of SC2 has ever fazed me.
Even at LANs for most other games people talk shit to each other, which I don't think anyone in SC2 has a reputation for yet.
People like this being the norm at CS or whatever actually speaks against those games' communities. I mean look at this fat raging nerd calling people 'faggots'... If he was laughing & enjoying himself I'd be all for it I call friends all kinds of stuff on bnet and they know that im just kidding and laughing while typing that stuff. Here you have some loser who is actually visibly upset and he expresses himself by acting like a 12 year old.
Thank god these idiots are in the minority in SC2.
He's not visibly upset though, his team is winning...
Wow this thread has completely deteriorated. WHETHER OR NOT NANIWA IS BM, THIS IS AN ACHIEVEMENT NONETHELESS. BM =/= skill, it has nothing to do with it. If you'd like to rage about him BMing, go do it somewhere else.
On January 06 2011 02:15 BasedSwag wrote: Yeah, these people who cry "bad manners" must have never played another online game before.. Nothing anyone has ever said at the end of a game of SC2 has ever fazed me.
Even at LANs for most other games people talk shit to each other, which I don't think anyone in SC2 has a reputation for yet.
People like this being the norm at CS or whatever actually speaks against those games' communities. I mean look at this fat raging nerd calling people 'faggots'... If he was laughing & enjoying himself I'd be all for it I call friends all kinds of stuff on bnet and they know that im just kidding and laughing while typing that stuff. Here you have some loser who is actually visibly upset and he expresses himself by acting like a 12 year old.
Thank god these idiots are in the minority in SC2.
He's not visibly upset though, his team is winning...
You can win and still be a raging fat asshole. That just makes it worse, people that act like that when they win. If people aren't used to bm then they have every right to get upset about it. Just because you come from a community full of bm ragers doesn't mean you have to spout how people that get upset about such bad behaviour haven't seen 'real BM'. It's all relative. I bet people that grew up in an illegal Israeli settlement would laugh at your definition of bm.
Comparing Idra's BM to nanis BM makes no sense. Idra rages at the game and tells the other player how terrible he is at the game. He also only BM's in ladder game. Naniwa saying "i hope your mom gets cancer and dies" in a tournament game is much worse.
On January 06 2011 06:26 Butcherski wrote: Comparing Idra's BM to nanis BM makes no sense. Idra rages at the game and tells the other player how terrible he is at the game. He also only BM's in ladder game. Naniwa saying "i hope your mom gets cancer and dies" in a tournament game is much worse.
If getting to 4000 is easy then every other pro out there is stupid for not doing it. This is GREAT advertisement for Naniwa and pros need that because they need to find sponsors.
Plus a lot of tournaments invite well known players, being well known is extremely important for a SC2 pro.
On January 06 2011 06:26 Butcherski wrote: Comparing Idra's BM to nanis BM makes no sense. Idra rages at the game and tells the other player how terrible he is at the game. He also only BM's in ladder game. Naniwa saying "i hope your mom gets cancer and dies" in a tournament game is much worse.
I think it's quite laughable that people attribute that quote to Naniwa.
On January 06 2011 02:15 BasedSwag wrote: Yeah, these people who cry "bad manners" must have never played another online game before.. Nothing anyone has ever said at the end of a game of SC2 has ever fazed me.
Even at LANs for most other games people talk shit to each other, which I don't think anyone in SC2 has a reputation for yet.
People like this being the norm at CS or whatever actually speaks against those games' communities. I mean look at this fat raging nerd calling people 'faggots'... If he was laughing & enjoying himself I'd be all for it I call friends all kinds of stuff on bnet and they know that im just kidding and laughing while typing that stuff. Here you have some loser who is actually visibly upset and he expresses himself by acting like a 12 year old.
Thank god these idiots are in the minority in SC2.
He's not visibly upset though, his team is winning...
You can win and still be a raging fat asshole. That just makes it worse, people that act like that when they win. If people aren't used to bm then they have every right to get upset about it. Just because you come from a community full of bm ragers doesn't mean you have to spout how people that get upset about such bad behaviour haven't seen 'real BM'. It's all relative. I bet people that grew up in an illegal Israeli settlement would laugh at your definition of bm.
My position is if you actually get upset about words spoken over the Internet (especially in an SC2 game) then you're a lucky person to not have encountered anything that is truly offensive.
On January 06 2011 01:16 reapsen wrote: I'm afraid i have to disagree. Behaving in a "bad" way is not necessarily linked to the age. Take Quakelive for example. I assume most of the players are well above 16, in fact i know a lot of Quakelivers between 25 and 35. And stuff that is considered as beeing "bm" in the SC Community is really not worth mentioning for most QL Players.
As i came to SC2 during the beta in march and started to look into the community i was utterly suprised of the standards for "good behavior". Its like coming from a shabby hotdog stand to a 4-star-restaurant. Suddenly you have to obey this code of behaviour that you are not used to. For me, i am totally fine with beeing called a "nub" or beeing "lol"ed at. The same way i throw out the occasional "lol" myself. Of course i am fine with players leaving without "gg", why should that bother me? Most of the times i even find it quite amusing.
So eventually i figured i wouldn't write anything in the chat at all, but even thats considered bm by most players. I mean come on, give me a break. Good manners are important for the pro's, as they represent their teams and stuff, but for 95% of casuals and amateur players, i don't care at all.
At long last someone with enough video game background to understand that.
To be honest this virtual bull "code of conduct" is more offensive than any bm anyone could ever throw around.
I mean for people who made their way with video games like quake 1-2-3 tf/dota etc where death threats, racist abuse and totally rampant profanity, the "sc2 bm of not gg'ing or saying noob" is a total laughingstock and it truly puzzles me how anyone could be "offended" by such minor shit ?
Being a crowd of foaming at the mouth offensive social retards is not an image I want associated with both the games that I play and the e-sports scene.
Additionally in your later post you state his behavior isn't something the new generation of gamers will understand. As someone who played CoD, MoHAA, Quake 3, UT, CS 1.3-1.6, Myth:TFL and Myth 2 I'd say that the general behavior of "gamers" has only grown worse over time.
There's nothing to be gained by cultivating poor behavior amongst gamers whereas having a clean-cut image promotes the game culture as respectable.
On January 06 2011 06:26 Butcherski wrote: Comparing Idra's BM to nanis BM makes no sense. Idra rages at the game and tells the other player how terrible he is at the game. He also only BM's in ladder game. Naniwa saying "i hope your mom gets cancer and dies" in a tournament game is much worse.
Well, ACTUALLY, some part of that quote belongs to me :D
The full segment being (after I usually lost to some kind of bullcrap cheese) : "I hope your mother gets cancer and some maniac kidnaps and tortures your (future) kids to teach you a lesson about fair play".
Used to throw it a lot at the beginning of SC2 ^___^ Usually got me a lot of "omgomgomg me report u ban ban". Sad for them some blizz people still have a sense of humor and recognized the legendary quote of Q1 (Moman didn't play Q1 as far as i know) :-p
On January 06 2011 06:26 Butcherski wrote: Comparing Idra's BM to nanis BM makes no sense. Idra rages at the game and tells the other player how terrible he is at the game. He also only BM's in ladder game. Naniwa saying "i hope your mom gets cancer and dies" in a tournament game is much worse.
Well, ACTUALLY, some part of that quote belongs to me :D
The full segment being (after I usually lost to some kind of bullcrap cheese) : "I hope your mother gets cancer and some maniac kidnaps and tortures your (future) kids to teach you a lesson about fair play".
Used to throw it a lot at the beginning of SC2 ^___^ Usually got me a lot of "omgomgomg me report u ban ban". Sad for them some blizz people still have a sense of humor and recognized the legendary quote of Q1 (Moman didn't play Q1 as far as i know) :-p
Bragging about being an asshole just makes you look like a child. No-one cares what 'legendary' insult you've been using on ladder.
On January 05 2011 02:04 Shockk wrote: Assuming this was actually done by Naniwa:
It makes me really sad that this was achieved by one of the most bad mannered and unreliable professionals in the SC2 scene. There's IdrA BM, which can be annoying, but at least his arrogance is partly justified considering his success and skill.
But Naniwa's manners - that's the worst possible example you can get. He screws up his life, his education, the relations to his parents for gaming. He screws up sponsorships, a payed apartment and membership in a international clan because of unreliability. And everyone you ask he's played with, everyone who hosted tournaments with him will have some story to tell about how much of a douche he is most of the time.
And some people are actually cheering for him when the best he deserves is pity.
I got more respect for him than you casual 2.5 k platinum players who thinks your opinion matters...
On January 06 2011 08:24 BasedSwag wrote: Bragging about being an asshole just makes you look like a child. No-one cares what 'legendary' insult you've been using on ladder.
Gotta remember that quote first originated like... aw... 15 years ago.
Making me look like a child ? Most of the bm-whiners around here weren't even born at that time, what's it to them ?
On January 06 2011 08:04 silentsod wrote:
Being a crowd of foaming at the mouth offensive social retards is not an image I want associated with both the games that I play and the e-sports scene.
Additionally in your later post you state his behavior isn't something the new generation of gamers will understand. As someone who played CoD, MoHAA, Quake 3, UT, CS 1.3-1.6, Myth:TFL and Myth 2 I'd say that the general behavior of "gamers" has only grown worse over time.
There's nothing to be gained by cultivating poor behavior amongst gamers whereas having a clean-cut image promotes the game culture as respectable.
I think you're mistaken about the generation. I was speaking of "first generation" gamers who started on games like duke nukem, blood and quake 1/quake armaggon on IPX/LAN.
We've gone thru so much abuse, profanity and bad manners (in astronomical rates above what is considered "bm" in SC2) that we sort of "get it".
Ironically the bm whiners seem to stick with games that attract a lot of kids. Since most people here WERE kids at the time of SC1 (more or less), it doesn't quite register with the "newcomers".
Personally it is the prime reason I continue to flame far and wide in games; Just picturing the face of some dumbass stick-up-the-ass kid who wants to have me banned for telling him precisely what kind of worthless noobish scum he is CRACKS ME UP :D
Just because it's done in a lot of games to a far worse degree doesn't make it any more desirable. What are you complaining about? Do you want more bad mannered players? Do you want to be more bad mannered?
On January 06 2011 08:50 Incanus wrote: Just because it's done in a lot of games to a far worse degree doesn't make it any more desirable. What are you complaining about? Do you want more bad mannered players? Do you want to be more bad mannered?
I want people to get over freakin' text on the net and not freak out like some psychotic stuck-up lobbying group when someone doesn't follow their retarded self-proclaimed all powerful "code of conduct".
Personally it is the prime reason I continue to flame far and wide in games; Just picturing the face of some dumbass stick-up-the-ass kid who wants to have me banned for telling him precisely what kind of worthless noobish scum he is CRACKS ME UP :D
Dont know if you are serious but if so, you are one of those people that are not very welcome on a site like TL. People tend to be polite and nice to each other. If you think that this kind of behaviour equals "some dumbass stick-up-the-ass kid ", you may have just choosen the wrong forum to post on.
Now go ahead and either tell me that you werent serious or that my replay CRACKS YOU UP
On January 06 2011 08:50 Incanus wrote: Just because it's done in a lot of games to a far worse degree doesn't make it any more desirable. What are you complaining about? Do you want more bad mannered players? Do you want to be more bad mannered?
I want people to get over freakin' text on the net and not freak out like some psychotic stuck-up lobbying group when someone doesn't follow their retarded self-proclaimed all powerful "code of conduct".
Bm-whiners should just go join some cult.
Dude, calm down... it's called being polite, I'm sorry you have trouble understanding why a code of courtesy is a good thing. It's something you might want to consider in everyday life as well.
On January 06 2011 09:11 UniversalSnip wrote: Dude, calm down... it's called being polite, I'm sorry you have trouble understanding why a code of courtesy is a good thing. It's something you might want to consider in everyday life as well.
I am calm :-)
That's the entire damn point of this whole mess. Sure people can be polite and courteous to each other in life but this is a freakin' game.
See I wasn't near angry or pissed when I wrote the message you quote yet you immediately assumed and convinced yourself I was.
Now technically speaking, a code of conduct has some grounds in real life but trying to impose retarded meaningless "rules" such as "thou shall always gg" or crap like that is entirely ridiculous.
A because nobody appointed any of the ones trying to impose it boss and B because a million people thinking the earth should be flat doesn't mean it is.
If you fail to see where I'm going with the "B", read up on fanatics, which is exactly what the "anti bm crowd" consists of.
Should you dissect this whole "rule of pro gaming" thing you could probably say it's an attempt to gain some virtual authority by people who otherwise have none.
I also read somewhere upwards one guy saying that "not being an asshole/bm/etc" means you're a pro/good player. Well apparently his little dream falls flat since the 2 most known and successful players of SC2 (at least for now) are both hardcore "bm'ers". ;-)
Edit: It's not like I'm trying to win the battle for the right to bad manners here but this whole 'virtual' code of conduct mess feels too familiar. Every single group/community/people who tried that kind of crap over the years have sooner or later all been flagged as the e-fascist laughingstocks of gaming (ask TDA or the first idiots of quakecon) and TL will be no exception if this shit keeps up...
Sure, joking around with your friends is fine, but when you ruin the gaming experience for other people (whether you are calling them noobs or laughing at their replays) I don't see how that is a good thing. The world is filled with enough trash talk, can't we be civil with one another for a change?
On January 06 2011 09:11 UniversalSnip wrote: Dude, calm down... it's called being polite, I'm sorry you have trouble understanding why a code of courtesy is a good thing. It's something you might want to consider in everyday life as well.
I also read somewhere upwards one guy saying that "not being an asshole/bm/etc" means you're a pro/good player. Well apparently his little dream falls flat since the 2 most known and successful players of SC2 (at least for now) are both hardcore "bm'ers". ;-)
check your logic
only a small minority of top gamers act this way, and they make a lot of noise (which is probably where your ill informed opinion comes from) the fact that they make a lot of noise detracts from everyone who wants e-sports to grow into maturity as an industry
if i can make the ever-dangerous sports analogy, the only sports with significant amounts of bm are completely idiotic (WWE I'm lookin at you), while sports with some level of mutual respect between players tend to have more lasting success
On January 06 2011 09:11 UniversalSnip wrote: Dude, calm down... it's called being polite, I'm sorry you have trouble understanding why a code of courtesy is a good thing. It's something you might want to consider in everyday life as well.
I am calm :-)
That's the entire damn point of this whole mess. Sure people can be polite and courteous to each other in life but this is a freakin' game.
See I wasn't near angry or pissed when I wrote the message you quote yet you immediately assumed and convinced yourself I was.
Now technically speaking, a code of conduct has some grounds in real life but trying to impose retarded meaningless "rules" such as "thou shall always gg" or crap like that is entirely ridiculous.
A because nobody appointed any of the ones trying to impose it boss and B because a million people thinking the earth should be flat doesn't mean it is.
If you fail to see where I'm going with the "B", read up on fanatics, which is exactly what the "anti bm crowd" consists of.
Should you dissect this whole "rule of pro gaming" thing you could probably say it's an attempt to gain some virtual authority by people who otherwise have none.
I also read somewhere upwards one guy saying that "not being an asshole/bm/etc" means you're a pro/good player. Well apparently his little dream falls flat since the 2 most known and successful players of SC2 (at least for now) are both hardcore "bm'ers". ;-)
Edit: It's not like I'm trying to win the battle for the right to bad manners here but this whole 'virtual' code of conduct mess feels too familiar. Every single group/community/people who tried that kind of crap over the years have sooner or later all been flagged as the e-fascist laughingstocks of gaming (ask TDA or the first idiots of quakecon) and TL will be no exception if this shit keeps up...
Not that I think this has anything to do with Naniwa achieving number 1 in the EU, which is a very cool achievement, but I really don't see why you would WANT to defend extremely bad mannered behavior. If we have the opportunity to create a pro gaming community which is actually professional, and is polite and courteous and friendly, we should take it. It cannot possibly be a bad thing to have a community which opposes the use of racial, ethnic, or homophobic slurs. I know that there's chops busting even in pro athletic sports, but that kind of behavior should be looked down upon, not looked to for an excuse as to why it's okay for someone to be a sore loser or just plain mean.
That said, I'll never go off on someone for bm if they fail to GG. Minimal decency is failing to call your opponent a shithead faggot. Absolutely everyone should be held to that standard in all areas of life, except I guess if that's how you and friends you know personally like to get on. Supererogatory behavior is saying GG or shaking your opponent's hand after a game. That's always nice and shows that you respect your opponents, which you ought to if you're playing a game professionally.
"e-sports" are NEVER going to be the squeaky clean habbo dream you oversensitive lunatics dream of.
Why ? Because nothing in the world ever worked that way, never will and above all, it's E-sports.
You're never convincing and much less bullying people into agreeing to some loosely shaped "acceptable rules" in a game that doesn't have any in the first place (past eula if you want to be specific)
Just go join the church or a random cult for clinically retarded loons if you want to force others to abide by whatever meaningless "code" you think trumps all.
I'm done arguing for common sense and independent thought, keep trying to push your little fantasies, I'll be there in 10 years to laugh my ass off at your naivety (and failure!).
(see in this post I actually got a little upset ^__^)
Stop bickering, it's lame guys. Anyway, found some recent replays of nani. He certainly is the real deal and deserves his spot. He has an aggression based style and he is very unpredictable. Rarely using the same build more than once. He forces his opponent to deal with his aggression and unpredictable compositions. That come very early. I highly recommend you watch his play if you doubt him. BTW he seemed very mannered in his games. It is possible that after the fiasco at that tourney he got DQ'd from he realized the error of his ways. I don't know the guy, but someone really needs to interview this guy asap. I'd love to hear what he has to say about his play style, being #1, his manner and reputation. Several of these games are vs good, known players like dimaga, MouzHasu, and Lucifron. You can download a few of his replays here
On January 06 2011 10:34 Shinkugami wrote: You just can't get it do you ?
"e-sports" are NEVER going to be the squeaky clean habbo dream you oversensitive lunatics dream of.
Why ? Because nothing in the world ever worked that way, never will and above all, it's E-sports.
You're never convincing and much less bullying people into agreeing to some loosely shaped "acceptable rules" in a game that doesn't have any in the first place (past eula if you want to be specific)
Just go join the church or a random cult for clinically retarded loons if you want to force others to abide by whatever meaningless "code" you think trumps all.
I'm done arguing for common sense and independent thought, keep trying to push your little fantasies, I'll be there in 10 years to laugh my ass off at your naivety (and failure!).
(see in this post I actually got a little upset ^__^)
Just to avoid the whole "us" versus "them" thing you seem to have going on, I just want to say that I also belive the "good manners" stuff to be a little over the top and priggish. However there's also nothing wrong with just generally expecting people to act pleasantly. You're right this isn't real life, it's a game that people play to get over their rough day at work/school. The average age of a gamer is pushing mid-thirties, so the image you have in your head of you being a veteran gamer playing against lots of whiny kids just isn't accurate, it's closer to reality to say it's probably a guy with a couple of kids who's got over their little teenage angst period, and really has no more time in their life for pointless unasked for "attitude" from somone wishing (hypocritically) to force their world-view on everyone else.
@Reborn8u Thanks for post linking those reps. Should be interesting to watch and definitely more interesting than the constant bickering, amusing though it may be.
On January 06 2011 10:49 Reborn8u wrote: Stop bickering, it's lame guys. Anyway, found some recent replays of nani. He certainly is the real deal and deserves his spot. He has an aggression based style and he is very unpredictable. Rarely using the same build more than once. He forces his opponent to deal with his aggression and unpredictable compositions. That come very early. I highly recommend you watch his play if you doubt him. BTW he seemed very mannered in his games. It is possible that after the fiasco at that tourney he got DQ'd from he realized the error of his ways. I don't know the guy, but someone really needs to interview this guy asap. I'd love to hear what he has to say about his play style, being #1, his manner and reputation. Several of these games are vs good, known players like dimaga, MouzHasu, and Lucifron. You can download a few of his replays here
Well done, Naniwa or whoever made it to 4000. There are like 309564865 other players who didn't make it. So that's a pretty nice accomplishment. So kudos to you. Maybe you should try your luck in GSL or Assembly 2011 or some other tournament to actually make some money with your skills.
Rating Change Consistently, we are seeing that people promoted into Master league are assigned new ratings equal to 73 + spent bonus pool. There is no point translation as was found in lower leagues.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UXu4A.jpg)
Congrats on bringing the newest 1k ladder increment achievement to the EU servers!
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