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[D] Do SC2-maps need more diversified expansions?

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 Next All
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 16:23:27
December 17 2010 16:21 GMT
#1
Hi everyone, I'd like to discuss something with you that caught my special attention after watching some BW games again - the problem of the "structure", the "nature" (or something similar to that) of expansions.
Everything below relates mostly to the creation of custom maps for tournaments since I don't believe Blizz would implement something like that because it would make the game (even more) harder for newcomers.

We all know what expansions look like in SC2: We have either 8 mineral patches with 2 geysers or 6 gold mineral patches with 2 geysers.
There's no strategical value to the question "which expansion do I take" whatsoever, the "defendability" is simply all that matters. Now in BW there are all kinds of expansions, mineral-only expos, expos where it's sometimes advisable to place the main close(r) to the gas and just mine gas etc. I think SC2 could profit hugely if there were maps with different kinds of expansions.

There's one aspect that I think could really add much strategical depth: geysers. In SC2 we have now 2 geyers instead of one as the "standard" type of expansion. Here I think more differentiated expansions could highly improve the strategic diversity of the game. I could think of the "classic" easy to take and hold mineral only expansions, expansions with just one geyser, but maybe also expansions with even three geysers, kinda like the gold expansions "geyser-wise" (those needed to be ridiculously hard to defend obviously) - scouting those expansions correctly and drawing the right conclusions concerning the strategy of your opponent would imo lead to more exciting games. The decision which expansion to take would become much "harder" in the sense that the player always needed to decide which strategy to pursue because the "type" of expansion would be directly correlated to the units he could produce afterwards.

Also this would add another element of "playing greedy" if you want to call it this way. Right now on most maps it isn't even possible to take the gold right away. Nevertheless I found this always to be something exciting, to see if the zerg gets away with early gold on scrap station for example. If now there were "better and worse" expansions, not only defense-wise but also concerning the "quality", concerning what they yield, this would create a whole new dimension to questions like early aggression vs defensive play.

What do you think, would you like to see something like that in maps too, or does this sound absurd to you?
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Cheticus
Profile Joined May 2010
United States83 Posts
December 17 2010 16:24 GMT
#2
I think it would be interesting to see, however if memory serves, there is SOME more diversification to expansions on the current map pool (albeit slightly). I think islands only have 7 mineral patches typically.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
December 17 2010 16:24 GMT
#3
I agree that this particular aspect of the current map pool has been overlooked. I suspect that blizzard standardized the maps this way to make their balancing job easier, but I don't see why we can't start diversifying maps as the game progresses.
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 17 2010 16:31 GMT
#4
I encourage all of you to look around the Custom Maps section. While most maps use regular bases, 8M3V expos have been seen, 9G, 4V, 16M4V (double expo), and half&half Gold&Blue expos.
(M=mineral, V=Vespene, G=Gold)

At this point in the game, messing with main resources is taboo, but otherwise we're trying to broaden the spectrum of expansions!
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Najda
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3765 Posts
December 17 2010 16:33 GMT
#5
Yeah it would be nice if we could play on other maps.
adius
Profile Joined May 2007
United States249 Posts
December 17 2010 16:34 GMT
#6
First you have to get GOMtv and other tournament organizations to actually consider using maps that aren't in the ladder pool. Otherwise this is all moot (and the game is probably in trouble)
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
December 17 2010 16:36 GMT
#7
Island expos tend to have fewer mineral patches, or even the semi-island ones on Scrap Station (the one's behind the rocks that don't get taken that often), don't have 8 mineral patches. Part of the problem is that the gas-less units just scale way too differently than they did in BW, but yea, people should definitely experiment.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
December 17 2010 16:40 GMT
#8
On December 18 2010 01:36 MoreFasho wrote:
Island expos tend to have fewer mineral patches, or even the semi-island ones on Scrap Station (the one's behind the rocks that don't get taken that often), don't have 8 mineral patches.


Perfectly valid point, I forgot about this because I was way too focused on the geysers.

Part of the problem is that the gas-less units just scale way too differently than they did in BW, but yea, people should definitely experiment.


This is indeed true. But instead of introducing drastic stuff like double expansions, I think you could slightly tweak the whole system by having some easier to defend expos only have 1 geyser for example. I was originally strongly in favour of the two geyser vs one because I thought it would bring more strategical debth - and it did.
By playing around with the amount of geysers each expo has, I think this could lead to even more strategical debth.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
December 17 2010 16:47 GMT
#9
I think in the future these different types of expos should come into play, but for right now i think blizzard just needs to keep stuff simple so they can balance the game out.
idonthinksobro
Profile Joined December 2010
3138 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 16:52:18
December 17 2010 16:49 GMT
#10
there are maps that only have 7 patches at every expansion e.g. shakuras

but well sc2 and bw are different - in broodwar each race had a minearl only unit that were viable in the lategame - in sc2 that is not the case so no gas expansions are totally useless.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
December 17 2010 16:51 GMT
#11
The main thing I want to see is rich gas geysers. They're in the editor, aren't they? Are they in any maps?
TheGiz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada708 Posts
December 17 2010 18:32 GMT
#12
Multiple-gas expansions or Terrazine (aka Rich Gas) expansions would be really cool. Problem is that they might swing army compositions WAY in favor of whoever secures them.
Life is not about making due with what you have; it's about finding out just how much you can achieve. Never settle for anything less than the best. - - - Read my blog!
BillyTheBanana
Profile Joined June 2010
United States32 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 18:51:13
December 17 2010 18:50 GMT
#13
I agree with WniO. Maps should stay simple while the game is young. Drastically changing the resources at expansions is a very technical variation that calls attention to itself. First I'd like to see some more "organic" variations, such as very large maps or maps with many easily protected expansions.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 19:45:36
December 17 2010 18:55 GMT
#14
--- Nuked ---
ToastieNL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands845 Posts
December 17 2010 18:56 GMT
#15
On December 18 2010 01:49 idonthinksobro wrote:
there are maps that only have 7 patches at every expansion e.g. shakuras

but well sc2 and bw are different - in broodwar each race had a minearl only unit that were viable in the lategame - in sc2 that is not the case so no gas expansions are totally useless.

Wut?

Marines are the core for any Terran army, super effective in small raid parties.

Zealots with Charge are ridiculous meatshields and do quite the DPS!

Zerglings are superfast, do high damage and are very good in punishing the enemy.

I didn't play BW, but all these units still have their use late- game!!

Also, I always kindo liked the idea of a 3G, 4B, 3V expansion, nice and colourfull !

Kind regards,
Toastie
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 18:59:46
December 17 2010 18:59 GMT
#16
--- Nuked ---
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 17 2010 19:09 GMT
#17
A 9 patch main would be nice because in-base hatch builds would be more viable. The main reason Z needs to expand so fast is Larva, their third resource.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
`Zapdos
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States935 Posts
December 17 2010 19:11 GMT
#18
I like the idea but mineral only would ruin zerg play seeing as they need lots of gas to get out any sort of anti-air unlike in sc1 where they could get hydras much cheaper D:
www.twitch.tv/thezapdos come watch me :]
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 17 2010 19:12 GMT
#19
He means 9 mineral 2 vespene
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Lingy
Profile Joined December 2010
England201 Posts
December 17 2010 19:30 GMT
#20
All id really want in new released maps are easier expos
Hydraliskuuuuhh
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