EPTClarifying Blizzard/Gretech vs. KeSPA/OGN/MBC - Page 2
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
It's very easy to spin-doctor something when both parties are unclear. | ||
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
Still, in the end, both of them is just trying to protect their interest. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
charlesatan wrote: [/i]Here's an analogy: For Blizzard, they own a hamburger retail shop (the hamburger is Broodwar in its entirety). KeSPA suddenly got their hamburgers, and started selling pieces (the bread, the hamburger) individually or even repacking them, but claiming it as their own. Blizzard wants acknowledgment that whatever KeSPA is selling belongs to them since it can all be traced to their hamburger (Broodwar). For KeSPA, Broodwar is a tree in Blizzard's backyard. They acknowledge that the tree belongs to Blizzard. However, occasionally, fruit (derivative works) from the tree will fall on public property or KeSPA's property, such as the street. Thus KeSPA claims that Blizzard has no claims over the fallen fruit, since it fell on public property/KeSPA's property, and that they appropriated it (worked on it, refined it, etc.). ion. Those analogy's make them sound like two squibbling sevenyearolds... And both are ridiculously full of shit. | ||
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myIRE
Belgium229 Posts
On December 30 2010 02:22 goldfishs wrote: [/i]Those analogy's make them sound like two squibbling sevenyearolds... And both are ridiculously full of shit. Well why don't you present us with your analogy, I'm sure you can clear things up just perfectly. Get off your horse sir, stop complaining just because this is the interwebs | ||
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King[Neikos]
Costa Rica506 Posts
To not just flame and actually make a contribution, here is my point of view in this, within the hamburger stuff: Blizzard makes the bread for the hamburger's(game), KeSPA buys it, adds some meat(players), tomatoes(pro-teams), lettuce(pro league/survivor's league), pickles(all the technical stuff, computers, place to play, referees etc, etc), sauce(makes it so it can be broadcasted), and maybe some cheese too  , then they pack it up, and sell the hamburgers to pay for bread and all other ingredients, then blizzard suddenly notices they can make a lot of money out of selling hamburgers, so they demand KeSPA that since everything is done with their bread, they should hold property rights over everything that is produced with that bread, KeSPA obviously refuses to give them more than they actually deserve, so Blizzard starts making a big issue over the bread to pull some attention into the matter and take it into court hoping they can force the money from the hamburgers(even when the only thing they did was the bread and NOTHING else) with the help of law.Now before any jumped conclusions, this is from a neutral perspective, Blizzard DO deserves money from their creation, the problem is the amount they are asking for, and that is the breaking point in this matter, that's why they cant come to an agreement, Blizzard just wants too much. That is my opinion on this. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
If they do, then this will set the precedent for all future games in korea and possibly internationally and will cause the immediate widthdrawl of funds toward promoting sc2. Anyone have any news on the case? | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
Come on. I play SC2 now but i'm still man enough to admit that SC1 is the much better game as far as progaming goes. I wouldn't even mind it that much if Blizzard killed SC1 in Korea IF GSL and Blizz would actually be a half decent substitute for Kespa. Which they are not. Kespa with MapDori have given us 3 new maps every 3 months for the past 5 or6 Years. Blizzard has made some crappy imbalanced maps and is forcing everyone to play them all the time just like they did with WarCraft3. There is no variety anymore. I cry myself to ladder each day on these ridiculous maps. | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
On December 30 2010 01:39 McDonalds wrote: It's more like KeSPA took a lot of photographs of the burger in different positions and then sold a book called Blizzurgers. And then Blizzard said "no, you can't do that, we created the logo on that burger wrapper and if it appears in your photographs then you're violating our rights". It's not really about the burger at all. its much more like microsoft claiming to own every .doc file in the fucking planet | ||
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GambleVII
126 Posts
On December 30 2010 01:22 Adeeler wrote: SC1 and SC2 are like a hammer and saw. That doesn't mean blizzard should own any house or street built with said hammer and saw; especially when a building company or person makes something with them. But the building company shouldn't be allowed to stop other people buildings houses. Kespa isn't good in practice, but blizzard shouldn't own derivitive works either imo as it sets a bad precident for esports imo. Thats a ridiciolous notion. The person who created the hammer (holds a patent if there is one) gets paid royalties from every single hammer made. The company that built the house bought a hammer and in turn the royalties of that sale went to the hammer inventor. Blizzard created sc they get paid for every sale of the game. A company utilizing their product to make profits, are entitled to reinburse Blizzard for their game. If there was no blizzard there is no sc in turn there is no Kespa. Everything kespa has they owe to Blizz for creating the game. Did kespa make esports into somethign great for bw, yes. Is there a selfish ulterior motive that blizzard is doing, yes. Does any of that matter? no. | ||
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
On December 30 2010 01:39 McDonalds wrote: It's more like KeSPA took a lot of photographs of the burger in different positions and then sold a book called Blizzurgers. And then Blizzard said "no, you can't do that, we created the logo on that burger wrapper and if it appears in your photographs then you're violating our rights". It's not really about the burger at all. This along with your username is extremely appropriate  | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On December 30 2010 03:53 GambleVII wrote: Thats a ridiciolous notion. The person who created the hammer (holds a patent if there is one) gets paid royalties from every single hammer made. The company that built the house bought a hammer and in turn the royalties of that sale went to the hammer inventor. Blizzard created sc they get paid for every sale of the game. A company utilizing their product to make profits, are entitled to reinburse Blizzard for their game. If there was no blizzard there is no sc in turn there is no Kespa. Everything kespa has they owe to Blizz for creating the game. Seriously? Stop with the stupid analogies, they can go both ways just as easily. I think the OP made that pretty clear with his examples. | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
On December 30 2010 03:53 GambleVII wrote: Thats a ridiciolous notion. The person who created the hammer (holds a patent if there is one) gets paid royalties from every single hammer made. The company that built the house bought a hammer and in turn the royalties of that sale went to the hammer inventor. Blizzard created sc they get paid for every sale of the game. A company utilizing their product to make profits, are entitled to reinburse Blizzard for their game. If there was no blizzard there is no sc in turn there is no Kespa. Everything kespa has they owe to Blizz for creating the game. Don't be silly. Blizzard didn't "invent" anything. They made and sold a product. Kespa, OGN / MBC are not selling SCBW copies, they are not selling anything that belongs to Blizzard. Morally Blizzard should get nothing from Kespa or anyone else for that matter. Its like a shopkeeper selling paint but then claiming that the picture the artist drew belongs to him because he created the paint, even though he later sold the paint to the artist who now wants to sell his painting to make money. This is the best analogy you could come up with and you can see how ludicrous the IP rights are in the US of A. People watch OGN / MBC to watch the ProGamers and the matches THEY play, not the crappy graphics and pixelated units from a game that was made in 98. Nobody would watch TV if a SCBW Computer would play against another SCBW Computer. Thats like people tunning in not to watch the Football players play the game, but to watch the Ball and the Field, or the chessboard and the chess pieces and not the match and the players. Morally, Kespa is right. Think about it. Right now in SC2, if FruitDealer plays the best game of his life and hits every critical timming and shows off incredible micro and multitasking, the replay belongs to Blizzard. What kind of I.P. BS is that ? Thats not a world i want to live in honestly. Basically, if the games played are just that, then the IP should belong to Blizzard, if the games played are MORE THAN THE SUM OF THEIR PARTS, meaning their value is higher than that of the game itself, then the IP should belong to the progamers who belong to Kespa. Problem solved. | ||
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GambleVII
126 Posts
Don't be silly. Blizzard didn't "invent" anything. They made and sold a product. Kespa, OGN / MBC are not selling SCBW copies, they are not selling anything that belongs to Blizzard. Morally Blizzard should get nothing from Kespa or anyone else for that matter. They are utilizing the copies to make profits, therefore they own a share of those profits to Blizzard. Do you think Adobe charges that much for their programs because they feel like it. There tool is made to create other things. Also Blizzard has a terms of service in all of there games. Read the broodwar one because KesPa had to agree to the terms of service when installing and utilizing the games. Its like a shopkeeper selling paint but then claiming that the picture the artist drew belongs to him because he created the paint, even though he later sold the paint to the artist who now wants to sell his painting to make money. This is the best analogy you could come up with and you can see how ludicrous the IP rights are in the US of A. But its not, because this isnt a product used to create something. If that painter wanted he could get the paint from any other store anywhere. You cant get starcraft from any other company aside from blizzard. People watch OGN / MBC to watch the ProGamers and the matches THEY play, not the crappy graphics and pixelated units from a game that was made in 98. Nobody would watch TV if a SCBW Computer would play against another SCBW Computer. Morally, Kespa is right. So why is wc3 and other rts liek command and conquer..etc not as popular as sc? because sc was made so damn good that its very enjoyable to watch. Kespa utilized blizzards game to make a product for people to watch. Kespa owes blizzard everythign so they are moraly wrong. Moraly you dont jsut lash out agaisnt the company that created the object that makes all your money. Hell have kespa do a OGN brodcastign red alert 2? I mean if its about the pros playing the game then it shouldnt matter what game right? If I find a waller and it has 1000 dollars in it, and i return it to you? would you give me a reward? Because moraly you should. No matter how much you give me your still positive money. Blizzard gave kespa a wallet, and kespa isnt rewarding blizzard for that. plain and simple. Think about it. Right now in SC2, if FruitDealer plays the best game of his live and hits every critical timming and shows off incredible micro and multitasking, the replay belongs to Blizzard. What kind of I.P. BS is that ? Thats not a world i want to live in honestly. that he is allowed to share with everyone but not for profit? If Kespa wants to do what they are doing for FREE then let them, but they are charging people and extorting companies to do it. Thats different. | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
The Photoshop Analogy actually works against you and against Blizzard. Morally, Blizzard should get nothing, and Laws and Legal systems have always been based on Morals. Moreover Kespa added to the game before it became "such a great game", when they fine-tuned the balance using maps which as you can see Blizzard is unable to do themselves. BroodWar would be imbalanced on the current SC2 maps just like SC2 is and thus a bad game. My point is not that the terms of use for the game do not exist or that Kespa did not agree to them, but that they should be void if Blizzard is looking to gain profit from a product derived from their product after its already been sold. And regarding the paint and artist analogy, lets imagine that the shopkeeper created a type of green that only he knows the recipe to. Think about the following. If an artist, today, in continental europe steals paint that does not belong to him and creates a painting that is worth more than the paint itself then the painting belongs to the artist who only has to give the owner of the paint the amount of money that the paint costs. Criminal Law and Civil Law are 2 different things. The painter would pay a criminal fine to the state for stealing, but the owner of the paint would only get the value of the paint back and not the painting. Kespa has taken the paint and has created an industry thats much more than what they got from Blizzard. Moreover just because they broke the terms of use agreement (which is not Criminal Law) they didn't commit any crime. So, because this is a Civil Trial and because the industry that Kespa has created is more than SCBW, Kespa could win. FYI South Korea uses the Continental Legal System, not Common Law so there is actually the posibility of Kespa winning the trial. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 30 2010 03:09 [White]NaDa wrote: i stopped reading after the hamburger's analogy, it was not well stated or you just have a point of view in the matter that i cant agree with, also, this belongs in BW forums, why? because its about Broodwar, not SC2, SC2 community have every right to be interested in this, but its not a SC2 topic. To not just flame and actually make a contribution, here is my point of view in this, within the hamburger stuff: Blizzard makes the bread for the hamburger's(game), KeSPA buys it, adds some meat(players), tomatoes(pro-teams), lettuce(pro league/survivor's league), pickles(all the technical stuff, computers, place to play, referees etc, etc), sauce(makes it so it can be broadcasted), and maybe some cheese too , then they pack it up, and sell the hamburgers to pay for bread and all other ingredients, then blizzard suddenly notices they can make a lot of money out of selling hamburgers, so they demand KeSPA that since everything is done with their bread, they should hold property rights over everything that is produced with that bread, KeSPA obviously refuses to give them more than they actually deserve, so Blizzard starts making a big issue over the bread to pull some attention into the matter and take it into court hoping they can force the money from the hamburgers(even when the only thing they did was the bread and NOTHING else) with the help of law.Now before any jumped conclusions, this is from a neutral perspective, Blizzard DO deserves money from their creation, the problem is the amount they are asking for, and that is the breaking point in this matter, that's why they cant come to an agreement, Blizzard just wants too much. That is my opinion on this. the hamburger analogy isn't very good but the OP gave a better one in the next paragraph. From what I can tell, the OP isn't really giving a point of view, but rather trying to clarify and make things more clear for people, since most of the previous posts on this topic are rather polarized. It's very relevant to SC2 as many SC2 players are/were BW players and the SC2 scene will be tied to the BW scene regardless of what happens. Still, this would probably be better in the General forum or even just news. | ||
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GambleVII
126 Posts
On December 30 2010 04:22 decemberTV wrote: I strongly dissagree with Common Law. We like to do things differently in the civilized world. The Photoshop Analogy actually works against you and against Blizzard. Morally, Blizzard should get nothing, and Laws and Legal systems have always been based on Morals. Moreover Kespa added to the game before it became "such a great game", when they fine-tuned the balance using maps which as you can see Blizzard is unable to do themselves. BroodWar would be imbalanced on the current SC2 maps just like SC2 is and thus a bad game. Photoshop sells its product for over 500 dollars in many cases higher then 1000. To allow the users free reign over its item. Blizzard does not offer their product for 1000 saying ok do whatever u want. No they have a TOS and thats their obligations for you to use their game. Do u see Blizzard suing valve for dota2? because thats based on something created in their map editor on WC3. Because see Valve is making their own game. Like i said, moraly Kespa owes blizzard, no matter how much kespa pays blizzard as long as they have some profits left they are posotive. because withought blizzard there would be no kespa. If u lose a waller and i return it with all its money; moraly you should give me a reward right. Well blizzard provided the waller for kespa to fill with money. Some of that money deserves to be in Blizzards hand. p.s i apologize for lack of capitalization and spelling errors. | ||
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King[Neikos]
Costa Rica506 Posts
On December 30 2010 04:34 GambleVII wrote: Photoshop sells its product for over 500 dollars in many cases higher then 1000. To allow the users free reign over its item. Blizzard does not offer their product for 1000 saying ok do whatever u want. No they have a TOS and thats their obligations for you to use their game. Do u see Blizzard suing valve for dota2? because thats based on something created in their map editor on WC3. Because see Valve is making their own game. Like i said, moraly Kespa owes blizzard, no matter how much kespa pays blizzard as long as they have some profits left they are posotive. because withought blizzard there would be no kespa. If u lose a waller and i return it with all its money; moraly you should give me a reward right. Well blizzard provided the waller for kespa to fill with money. Some of that money deserves to be in Blizzards hand. p.s i apologize for lack of capitalization and spelling errors. you are making a lot of errors simply based on blind support to blizzard you know? its not like KeSPA does not pay anything to Blizzard | ||
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GambleVII
126 Posts
On December 30 2010 04:38 [White]NaDa wrote: you are making a lot of errors simply based on blind support to blizzard you know? its not like KeSPA does not pay anything to Blizzard Im supporting blizzard in a sense that they own the game and anything they are entitled too. If kespa doesnt like paying them, then go do this same thing in another game? How did people make maps for bw? oh yeah BLIZZARD put in a map editor, so again they provided them with the means of creating those maps. So if blizzard never provided a Map editor, kespa again woulda done shit all. Everythign kespa did was because of blizzard. I dont care how much they pay them, if blizzard wants more they owe them more. Thats just how it is. the pro scene wouldnt have been popular if not for Blizzard simple. No game no pro scene, no map editor, no new map pools. If Kespa doesnt like it, let them make a pro league with a different game? Why dont they? because they cant thats why. | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
On December 30 2010 04:34 GambleVII wrote: Photoshop sells its product for over 500 dollars in many cases higher then 1000. To allow the users free reign over its item. Blizzard does not offer their product for 1000 saying ok do whatever u want. No they have a TOS and thats their obligations for you to use their game. Do u see Blizzard suing valve for dota2? because thats based on something created in their map editor on WC3. Because see Valve is making their own game. Like i said, moraly Kespa owes blizzard, no matter how much kespa pays blizzard as long as they have some profits left they are posotive. because withought blizzard there would be no kespa. If u lose a waller and i return it with all its money; moraly you should give me a reward right. Well blizzard provided the waller for kespa to fill with money. Some of that money deserves to be in Blizzards hand. p.s i apologize for lack of capitalization and spelling errors. The EULA or whatever is not law. Right now i could break the EULA (or whatever it is you call TOS), Sell my replay if anyone would actually buy it,( lol ) and all that Blizzard could do is close my Battle.net Account. They could sue me but under Continental Law if i prove to the judge that that is such an amaizing replay that its more valuable than the game then i would win the trial. | ||
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