EPTIt isnt because of production units. its because of the units themselves.
[Rant] Zerg need to be ahead in bases - Page 3
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
It isnt because of production units. its because of the units themselves. | ||
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ccHaZaRd
Canada1024 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:10 WniO wrote: great post. one base zerg is quite scary, its strange that zerg is the weakest race yet they are the most willing to expand early. Lol. this thread is pretty terrible and your rant proves nothing | ||
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FrostOtter
United States537 Posts
All gateway units tells me what type of units you are using, but not the ratio. I believe that in the proper response ratios Zerg can do quite well. | ||
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Lucid90
Canada340 Posts
The problem with zerg is that their units aren't cost effective. Both terran and protoss units are significantly more cost effective against a zerg. Lets use mech as an exmaple. Can a 2 base zerg beat a 2 base terran when he goes mech? It's arguable, and there's a lot of factors to consider such as slow mobility and using nyduses, but in the end most likely the terran will rolfstomp the zerg. Same situation with protoss. A 2 basing toss who gets 16 probes at the minerals and 6 at the gas at each expo and makes none stop units will almost always beat the zerg. This is just from my experience and I don't have any replays to show this, but they will almost always beat a whatever unit combination zerg manages to go for. Being a base up allows zerg to just have more stuff than the opponent, so when a fight comes, while the opponent is more cost effective, zerg will just have more units. And from my experience, I never had a production problem. If you keep your queens energy down with constant spits, the only unit you won't be able to produce out of 2 hatches constantly is zerglings, but iirc roaches and anything else is doable. If you want to go pure ling off 2 mining bases, you need another hatch. Once again a lot of timing have to be considered. Like we can't just say 2 base z = 2 base p because a zerg can do a 2 base roach rush or something and kill the early expanding toss off, but that doesn't mean that on average 2 base toss is weaker than 2 base zerg. here is my sc2 ranks in 1v1. I haven't played in months, but when I did I wasn't that bad. I play z http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/3538519 | ||
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j0k3r
United States577 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:17 Cambam wrote: While your post is partly true, the point you're missing is that terran produces scv's much slower than zerg or protoss. Hence, Zerg can be equal on 2 bases vs a 2 base terran for a certain amount of time. Once the terran reaches full saturation + mules, you're right, the zerg needs to have a 3rd. But there is a substantial amount of time where it is ok to be 2 base vs. 2 base against terran. So your goal is to say what exactly? Why is it okay? I don't think it's okay at all. If you have such high resource collection rate, what in the world is WRONG with expanding? The gas income, as stated a million times in this thread, will become invaluable in the later stages of the game. 2 base brood lord or ultra isn't going to work out very well because you will 1) not have the gas, and 2) not have the production capability to have supporting units. The mentality of zerg should be to seek a 3rd as soon as possible, not to think "okay, it's fine and dandy for me to sit on 2 base because my opponent doesn't have the same income as me yet". Also remember zerg units have low hp in general and will die to equal cost armies of T and P if un-upgraded (upgrades also cost, you guessed it, gas). | ||
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
Given that inefficiency, Zerg must have a better economy to overcome this. Luckily Zerg has mobile units good for map control that allows them to take their expansions easier. Equal production capacity doesn't mean a thing, if the opposing army is more efficient. | ||
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FrostOtter
United States537 Posts
Terran and Protoss armies may be more cost-effective to the 1a-er, but someone who makes the most of the units could tip the scales toward Zerg...obviously this is only so effective, but it can make the difference in a battle. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:42 Amber[LighT] wrote: Equal cost RH or RZ armies will not beat an equal cost gateway unit army (with no upgrades). This. And also, Protoss can make Colossi off 2 bases, they dont HAVE to be pure gateway. You've completely neglected cost effectiveness, and that also pretty much sums up why ur wrong =/ | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:10 WniO wrote: great post. one base zerg is quite scary, its strange that zerg is the weakest race yet they are the most willing to expand early. This thread is only a day old, right? Ooo, it is. Zerg is probably the strongest at the moment. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:18 Kiarip wrote: I feel like as Protoss I need tons of gas. Yeah, I'm not really buying the argument that zerg needs more gas than other races. It depends on what army composition you're going for. Zerg has gas-heavy armies as do protoss and terran. Zerg has gas-light armies as do protoss and terran. Also, I agree with a lot of posters that there are certain situations where you need to be a base ahead to be equal. I am by no means saying that zerg never has to be up a base. My point is that it's not a hard set rule. There are many, many situations where you don't need to be ahead in bases or even hatches to be equal. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
Don't pay any attention to this if you're trying to learn Zerg. Seriously. 1 base Zerg is laughable. Saying that Zerg can compete with T and P on equal bases is just so wrong. This thread needs to be purged before some poor guy trying to learn the race reads it and takes it to heart. -_- | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
More importantly, you admit in the OP that, when maxed out economically, zerg is inferior to terran or protoss on equal bases. For this reason, zergs are always trying to stay ahead on that front. You claim that zerg would only need a third base if protoss moves up from 6 to 8-9 gates. This is extremely flawed thinking. Take the amount of time needed for a gateway to be built and turned into a warpgate, then compare that to the amount of time it takes to build a hatchery and saturate it with drones and a queen. They aren't even close. If all zergs listened to your advice, they would fall behind while the third hatchery is finishing, and subsequently get steamrolled by a full-economy two base protoss army. In the real world, an astute zerg player will expect the protoss to either expand himself or add more gateways, and thus will preemptively expand so as not to fall behind. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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delayed reflex
Canada358 Posts
I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that the OP, though I don't know if it's necessarily true (I'm not at a computer where I can view replays sadly), but if it is, it would indicate that on maps such as Jungle Basin it may become standard for zergs to have a 3rd in-base hatch. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:24 ZekZ wrote: Lol. this thread is pretty terrible and your rant proves nothing Dont lol at my post. If you have nothing constructive to say against the OP than dont. Just laughing and shrugging it off does not count as a legit post or an argument. I realize its not normal, but im telling you one basing is actually really good for zerg. you plop down an extra hatch youd be amazed at how fast you can outproduce your opponent. | ||
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TypeFake
United States121 Posts
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 17 2010 11:51 WniO wrote: Dont lol at my post. If you have nothing constructive to say against the OP than dont. Just laughing and shrugging it off does not count as a legit post or an argument. I realize its not normal, but im telling you one basing is actually really good for zerg. you plop down an extra hatch youd be amazed at how fast you can outproduce your opponent. If you actually lose to this then he has every reason to laugh at you. I can't believe you actually want to debate 1 base Zerg lol | ||
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