EPT2 base t/p > 2 base 2 hatch
2 base t/p = 2 base 3 hatch
2 base t/p < 3 base 3 hatch
edit: for income and unit production.
[Rant] Zerg need to be ahead in bases - Page 10
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
2 base t/p > 2 base 2 hatch 2 base t/p = 2 base 3 hatch 2 base t/p < 3 base 3 hatch edit: for income and unit production. | ||
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megagoten
318 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:03 jinorazi wrote: is it correct to assume: 2 base t/p > 2 base 2 hatch 2 base t/p = 2 base 3 hatch 2 base t/p < 3 base 3 hatch i believe these assumptions are too situational to be able to make an assumption | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On November 18 2010 03:51 Cambam wrote: I know it's not the best way, but it's a start; several people have run unit tester comparisons and posted in this thread about the early zerg army winning without micro. If you want micro and real game situations, me and other zergs and protoss have spoken from experience that equal cost roach/ling, roach only, ling/hydra, roach/hydra or ling/roach/hydra armies can easily go toe to toe with zealot/stalker/sentry armies. I don't know why anyone would claim otherwise. If mass gateway (without templar tech) is so strong, why does toss even bother with colossi? Why isn't every toss just going 2 base 9 gate every game? How is the 4 gate stoppable? I have about 50 replays of me holding off 4 gates with a smaller cost ling/hydra spine crawler army (yes, including the cost of spine crawlers). Some people will say that hydra is higher tech, but other people in this thread are arguing that ling/hydra or roach/hydra armies can't beat zealot/stalker/sentry. Seriously, wtf? 4 gate should never lose by that logic. there is a major flaw in that logic tho. why would ANYONE go mass gatway units when a toss should have a few collousus up by the time the zerg has hydras up. a few colossus will crush hydra ling and roach ling with some stalkers+zealots+sentries backing them up. also you have sentries in that composition, instead of atk moving try using FFs and abuse the fact that roaches, even with the buff, have a range of 4, lings are melee, and that stalkers have a range of 6 and sentries a range of 5. add colossus which has a range of 9 to the mix and ur good to go. doesnt matter how cost effective the zerg units are, they all get crushed by toss if you dont have the right composition to deal with it. hydras are a tier 2 unit. colossus is a tier 2 unit. so since hydras are tier 2, why cant toss bring out colossus which is also tier 2? and i can tell you right now, any toss that knows how to make excellent use of FF will not get beaten by pure roach or roach/ling army. i promise u that. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:00 Piy wrote: You will never beat Protoss as zerg if you play 2 base vs 2 base unless you all in. There is no further need for discussion. It's just mathematically impossible. Really man? I don't really want to argue too much because I am a terrible player. But if you have mathematical proof about your claims post them because I am sure they will be interesting and will end this thread. But seriously, we all agree that Zerg need Hatcheries to keep up with T/P production. The question here is if they need more bases to keep even. Obviously if anyone is ahead in base count that probably means they have more money thus more production thus they are ahead regardless of Race | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:07 Ballistixz wrote: there is a major flaw in that logic tho. why would ANYONE go mass gatway units when a toss should have a few collousus up by the time the zerg has hydras up. a few colossus will crush hydra ling and roach ling with some stalkers+zealots+sentries backing them up. also you have sentries in that composition, instead of atk moving try using FFs and abuse the fact that roaches, even with the buff, have a range of 4, lings are melee, and that stalkers have a range of 6 and sentries a range of 5. add colossus which has a range of 9 to the mix and ur good to go. doesnt matter how cost effective the zerg units are, they all get crushed by toss if you dont have the right composition to deal with it. hydras are a tier 2 unit. colossus is a tier 2 unit. so since hydras are tier 2, why cant toss bring out colossus which is also tier 2? and i can tell you right now, any toss that knows how to make excellent use of FF will not get beaten by pure roach or roach/ling army. i promise u that. Well, I don't like the term of Tiers, but aren't Colossi tier 3? | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
Some examples, to counter a 2 base 6 gate ball with a few immortals using roach hydra, you are going to need at least 90 food worth of units. This means at least 45 larva, probably more since you are going to be making lings. Considering the fact that you spend the X larva per minute you get on all of your drones, buildings, and units. It is much easier to have this many larva off of 3 bases versus two. That is why you "need" (its just advantageous) to be on one more base. You can also just have a second hatch in your main, but with a third base so close, and so much more beneficial, why not take it? | ||
Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:07 Ballistixz wrote: there is a major flaw in that logic tho. why would ANYONE go mass gatway units when a toss should have a few collousus up by the time the zerg has hydras up. a few colossus will crush hydra ling and roach ling with some stalkers+zealots+sentries backing them up. also you have sentries in that composition, instead of atk moving try using FFs and abuse the fact that roaches, even with the buff, have a range of 4, lings are melee, and that stalkers have a range of 6 and sentries a range of 5. add colossus which has a range of 9 to the mix and ur good to go. doesnt matter how cost effective the zerg units are, they all get crushed by toss if you dont have the right composition to deal with it. hydras are a tier 2 unit. colossus is a tier 2 unit. so since hydras are tier 2, why cant toss bring out colossus which is also tier 2? I was addressing the several posters in this thread that are claiming that roach/hydra does not beat zealot/stalker/sentry. and i can tell you right now, any toss that knows how to make excellent use of FF will not get beaten by pure roach or roach/ling army. i promise u that. It won't get beaten, but will it always beat a pure roach or roach/ling army? If that's confusing, I'm making the distinction between whether or not the protoss army is defending the zerg at the toss base or attacking the zerg at the zerg base. If you're saying a gateway army with good FF can always beat a roach or roach/ling army at the zerg base, that sounds pretty imba and likely untrue. Why isn't every pro protoss winning their PvZs in the first 8 minutes? | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:07 Ballistixz wrote: there is a major flaw in that logic tho. why would ANYONE go mass gatway units when a toss should have a few collousus up by the time the zerg has hydras up. a few colossus will crush hydra ling and roach ling with some stalkers+zealots+sentries backing them up. also you have sentries in that composition, instead of atk moving try using FFs and abuse the fact that roaches, even with the buff, have a range of 4, lings are melee, and that stalkers have a range of 6 and sentries a range of 5. add colossus which has a range of 9 to the mix and ur good to go. doesnt matter how cost effective the zerg units are, they all get crushed by toss if you dont have the right composition to deal with it. hydras are a tier 2 unit. colossus is a tier 2 unit. so since hydras are tier 2, why cant toss bring out colossus which is also tier 2? and i can tell you right now, any toss that knows how to make excellent use of FF will not get beaten by pure roach or roach/ling army. i promise u that. Colossi tech...... Gateway ->cyber core -> Robo Facility -> robo support bay -> upgrade to make them useful. Definitely a tier 3 unit and a late one if you count their upgrade. Secondly, if the zerg actually has an interest in getting hydras quickly. He can have 10 at your door before your first colossi has started building. It just depends on when they decide to make the lair/hydra den. Generally speaking however, protoss playerys (Nony, Huk) make mass gateway units because it is an effective way to deal with that roach ling pressure that is all to common in the post patch environment. Also, because a big army is the only thing that will convince a smart zerg player to cut droning heavily so that he wont just violently out macro you like he would if your tried to go for early colossi. As for FF, I could argue that any "excellent" zerg roach/ling player knows how to force a few fields out of a toss ball. | ||
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MadJack
Peru357 Posts
But this phrase is getting to my nerves. "Zerg needs to be AHEAD in bases to win the game". Thats really, ******. Any race thats AHEAD on bases should be able to win the game. Zerg can fight 2 base against 2 base, and even 1 base against 1 base. The problem is most players dont know how and NEVER WILL because 99% rush into the macro game (im not criticizing macro games or 1 base games, thats not my point). Most Zerg have been spoiled by being "able" (despite some still abusive bunker/cannon rushes) to fast expand and making loads of drones for the most part of the early game, thus getting a very late lair, very late 2nd 3rd gas, i mean until 42 food its most games drones a couple of scouting lings, and spine crawlers to defend the exp, which means more drones were produced. And you know what? thats great, your getting AHEAD in income, because the game relatively allows you to. But you dont think to remember that you are AHEAD of the other race your facing. 4ex.: Zerg fast expands into droning hard with 4-5 spine crawlers and few scouting lings, protoss goes 4 warpgate rush (not korean all in, meaning good saturation and 2 gases). Protoss attacks and fails and loses his troops. He has 2 choices he keeps getting units from 1 base and keeps trying, he stops unit production and expands, but most of the time they will just leave. Why? cuz they are in 1 base zerg is in 2 zerg is AHEAD, so much ahead because not only he had a decent saturation b4 the attack failed, but after it he just took 10-12 larva and morphed them into drones while you just got your 20-25 probes and you cut their production to make units, so even if you expand its going to take a lot of time until you can move out and in that time zerg can get 3rd or 4rth, not because he really needs it, its just because he is ahead and you give map control to be safe with your own expansion. About 1 base zerg, the reason is so dificult is that hydralisk are shit in low numbers, they have a very expensive must-have upgrade (range) are so slow and so fragile, that spending 100/50 in them its not very cost efective. Roach ling is actually very good until/or they get void ray/banshee, and your screwed, hydra roach is too gas intensive for 1 base, hydra ling... collossi/tanks; muta ling would be a joke. Anything involving hydras and 1 base its a no go. And ofc protoss/terrans have better 1 base defense with walls and FFs so theres not much use to have an army which most of the time could kill the opponent but FFs and walls block them to, instead of investing in expanding. About 2 bases, If FE zerg should be most games always be ahead in workers than the other races so which gives him the lead and the option to get even more ahead taking another expansion. And that would be true for any race if you have 1 more base that your opponent for quite some time, and he just getting expanded, its mostlikely the better option to expand once more yourself. Zerg by fast expanding its taking one step AHEAD in the game. I believe zerg CAN play and CAN win in same bases with other races, but until players stop playing so wastefully and undestand that making 25+ banelings with your mutas to kill 20 marines and 3 tanks its not cost efective, its a great waste of 75/25 per baneling. The mentality is set to expand more and make a lot of w/e should counter the other players army, but at some point a players will know how to effectively use zerg units so that they can be very viable in same bases of other races, and then ppl will call zerg "OP". | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
That's how I think the Zerg. Longer you stay in game, the stronger you become as race. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On November 18 2010 05:22 Ryndika wrote: We have to take into accoutn taht Zerg units are not very efficient in smaller numbers but in games where it tends to be macrogame (longer) they get more efficient by the time. That's how I think the Zerg. Longer you stay in game, the stronger you become as race. You're thinking of protoss, zerg units are incredibly strong in small numbers. That is why they have strategies like 6 pool and 5 roach rush. It's why one of their most popular build orders relys on quickly getting 6 mutalisks. In the late game, zerg has to have a large number of units because of the glass cannon nature of their units. Lings, hydras and mutas all have very little hp when compared to their damage, and thus are better off the longer they live. This is what makes colossi such a good counter unit, they can reach the fragile hydralisks, and kill them quickly, leaving your gateway units alive. It is not until the enemy gets a large sum of units that your small units (lings in particular) get weaker because it takes longer for your massive army to start dealing damage. This is why as the game goes it is easier for zerg to produce masses of units. It is because your units lose their value late game. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
On November 18 2010 05:48 bobcat wrote: You're thinking of protoss, zerg units are incredibly strong in small numbers. That is why they have strategies like 6 pool and 5 roach rush. It's why one of their most popular build orders relys on quickly getting 6 mutalisks. In the late game, zerg has to have a large number of units because of the glass cannon nature of their units. Lings, hydras and mutas all have very little hp when compared to their damage, and thus are better off the longer they live. This is what makes colossi such a good counter unit, they can reach the fragile hydralisks, and kill them quickly, leaving your gateway units alive. It is not until the enemy gets a large sum of units that your small units (lings in particular) get weaker because it takes longer for your massive army to start dealing damage. This is why as the game goes it is easier for zerg to produce masses of units. It is because your units lose their value late game. 6 pool relies on you having more zerglings than they have zealots. In other words, strength in numbers. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:32 Nazza wrote: 6 pool relies on you having more zerglings than they have zealots. In other words, strength in numbers. Actually, 100 minerals in lings beats 100 minerals in zealots, in which case lings are more cost effective. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:59 pwadoc wrote: Actually, 100 minerals in lings beats 100 minerals in zealots, in which case lings are more cost effective. only in small numbers of zealots and lings, without micro, in open areas. Secondly what he said was still valid. Zerg needs much more zerglings than zealots in a 6 pool because he needs to kill probes AND any potential zealots. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
Is that you? lol it's kinda clever if it is. Your generating a huge debate where at the very least, players in your 'league' range will attempt once in a while, thus increasing the chance of giving you a couple of more wins? lol Really, i'm not sure what your trying to argue anymore, maybe it's the way you write, but there's so much 'waffle' in your argument that it's incredibly flimsy. It doesn't even feel like you understand how rts like this works. You present no evidence for your arguments as to how 2 base vs 2 base is equal and not disadvantageous for the Z. Perhaps link some pro-level game that shows that 2 base vs 2base is 'okay'. Also, since I first started out playing Z, the old "Z needs +1 base" has helped me IMMENSELY to improve my game since bw (ty day9). Look at how Z macro works, the larva stockpiles so if you ever want, your money will never be too low. If you add a 3rd hatch in your main with no thoughts to it other than "it'll be safer" your gonna be stuck 10mins later thinking "well shit, i got no money to spend on an expo". Whereas when I follow "+1 expo" adage i'm forced to think of how to spread out creeps/units/unit comps to help def the expo and maintain my eco advantage. Yea sure the next 10 games i'll lose 9, but then the next 100 games i'll win 99 times due to the expo. PS. Unit tester is shit. Has no relevance to the game other than 1v1 unit battles or maybe air vs air battle. If I want to play 'no micro 1v1' i'll play civilization 1. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1644632/CamBam Try and stop me ahahahahah! Bronze league will be mine!Is that you? lol it's kinda clever if it is. Your generating a huge debate where at the very least, players in your 'league' range will attempt once in a while, thus increasing the chance of giving you a couple of more wins? lol Really, i'm not sure what your trying to argue anymore, maybe it's the way you write, but there's so much 'waffle' in your argument that it's incredibly flimsy. I think it comes across as flimsy because I'm not making a very big claim. I'm simply saying that, while it's usually a good idea to be up a base as zerg, it's not always required. Sometimes you can achieve the same effect by throwing down an in base hatch, and sometimes you don't even need that. I just feel like the "zerg +1 base" rule is followed so dogmatically around here and I wish people would realize it's not true 100% of the time. | ||
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compgeekster
United States3 Posts
That is how the race was designed. It is designed such that you constantly send forces and try to overwhelm the opponent. Of course you can win otherwise, but generally that is how zerg is meant to be played. I think because of this design the units are not as cost effective. When you engage with a decent sized equal value army the zerg army usually will lose more. The main problem is that zerg's have no good splash units, or good combat casters other than the infestor. So when faced against another race with such units, the zerg army will be at a disadvantage. so that is why you need to stay 1 base ahead, because you need the extra economy to pump units and production abilities. 2 base vs 2 base, zerg can win. But the problem is, if given equal footing up to that point, the 2 base T/P will be able to make more effective armies. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
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