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On November 04 2010 08:48 hifriend wrote:
The ladder seems completely arbitrary to me. One game I'm fighting 1900's and the next I'm up vs a 400 diamond with a total of 50 games played. I've pretty much stopped dead in the ladder at 1650 for a good while so shouldn't I be faced with 1650 players, it seems like that's where I am skillwise?
Possibly because it can't always find people near that rating. Also, because the system needs to be sure where you are so it constantly pits you up against weaker/stronger opponents to make sure it is correct with its assesment. If you are a 1650 Calibre player then regardless of who you face, the system will always try keep your Win/Loss at 50%
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I don't know maybe it is punishing you. But I feel like bonus points reward people for not playing as much.
Maybe the system is assuming you are 50% W/L with 400 bonus points, so in theory if you wont 50% of your games with those points you would go up 400 points, putting you at 1500.
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I only get to play one, maybe two ladder games of SC2 a week. I'm rated about 850-900 diamond on NA, but I've only been playing 1400-1800 rated players lately. My record's been quite good - I've won about 12 out of the last 15 games - but I just don't have the time to get my points value up to where they are. Even if I'm creeping forward slowly, everyone else just grinds 3-4-5 more games and it's back to square one.
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On November 03 2010 05:46 Mutaahh wrote:
I think it does punish them(Infrequent players) on a way that they always feel as an underdog, but certainly aren't an underdog, cause MMR always tries to get a played at your skill ratio.
It fails pretty hard at that. Hardly any opponent I've been getting these past few days have been worth a damn.
Sometimes it will match you with people that are clearly WAY above your level and sometimes way BELOW. Doesn't make any damn sense.
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I punish infrequent players.
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It's kind of annoying tbh. I'm only getting about 11-13 points per win (before bonus pool) and losing the same amount per loss yet I'm playing people that are anywhere from 400-600 points higher than me due to my long period of no-sc due to irl stuff.
I think it's fine for the system to match me up against people with higher points than me because of my "true" rating, but it's annoying for me to gain/lose the same amount of points. IMO, I think i should be gaining more points than I lose if only so that my visual point value will better match with my "true" rating faster.
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Yeah, I'm feeling kind of punished. I've played ~20 games in the past two days and all but 2 opponents have been at least 900 points higher than me. I just got 8(+8) points for beating someone with a displayed rating 1000 points higher than mine. :/
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On November 03 2010 06:59 Chill wrote:
I still don't get why there is a MMR and points. The points are actually meaningless, right? Top 200 is by MMR, points gained / lost is by MMR.
So what's the point of points?
thats like asking whats the point of levels in World of warcraft :s
Its there for a reference of the ranking system.
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On November 04 2010 09:04 Tomfour wrote:
I don't know maybe it is punishing you. But I feel like bonus points reward people for not playing as much.
Maybe the system is assuming you are 50% W/L with 400 bonus points, so in theory if you wont 50% of your games with those points you would go up 400 points, putting you at 1500.
And if you played 200 games a day at 50% WL, you'd already have all 400 of those bonus pool points. I don't see what the problem is.
On November 04 2010 13:26 Mindcrime wrote:
Yeah, I'm feeling kind of punished. I've played ~20 games in the past two days and all but 2 opponents have been at least 900 points higher than me. I just got 8(+8) points for beating someone with a displayed rating 1000 points higher than mine. :/
You need to add everyone's bonus pool points to their score to determine what blizzard considers to be your displayed rating. If it didn't work this way, players with 1000 points and 1000 bonus pool would get more points for beating a 2050 than someone with 2000 points, which would completely mess up the system.
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On November 04 2010 14:22 SharkSpider wrote:
You need to add everyone's bonus pool points to their score to determine what blizzard considers to be your displayed rating.
I don't think it's quite that simple. :|
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The bonus pool is here to force players to play the game.
Just imagine : If there was a mondragon-like that went 50-2 in ladder and he got top1, he will most likely stop it there because he's first.
Now try to imagine having 10 mondragon, they all stop when they all get top 11.
How are we supposed to play against the best since they stopped to play ?
That's where bonus pool is good : the mondragons won't be top 11 forever and they will be forced to play in order to maintain their status, thus we may have a chance to play against them.
Fortunately or unfortunately it's only 1 point per hour. So 1 game or 2 per day is enough to use all the bonus pool.
Makes sense really. But the problem is that not everybody got the game within the first day of the release. Which is why reseting the ladder from time to time is good.
Still 6 months seems like a bit too much...
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On November 04 2010 14:28 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 14:22 SharkSpider wrote:
You need to add everyone's bonus pool points to their score to determine what blizzard considers to be your displayed rating.
I don't think it's quite that simple. :|
For your displayed rating it is. MMR is a hell of a lot more complicated.
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Well, the less you play, you will have less PSR than someone who plays more but with equal win % (give or take the variance that comes playing higher/lower people.) I actually think bonus pool, which supposedly was supposed to give infrequent players more of a chance, amplifies the problem.
PSR just keeps growing and growing due to bonus pool (and more players being added to the player pool, but I would say bonus pool makes a bigger impact.) If you play infrequently, you will not be using up all of the bonus pool, whereas frequent players will. Thus, the system because backwards.
They should really consider reworking or removing bonus pool.
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On November 04 2010 14:47 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 14:28 Mindcrime wrote:On November 04 2010 14:22 SharkSpider wrote:
You need to add everyone's bonus pool points to their score to determine what blizzard considers to be your displayed rating.
I don't think it's quite that simple. :| For your displayed rating it is. MMR is a hell of a lot more complicated.
Do you not realize that MMR, in part, determines gains and losses in displayed ratings?
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Bonus points are meant to be there to encourage people to play more to use them up and that's all, it doesn't affect your MMR aka an indication of your "true skill level". Once people realise that points don't mean anything, bonus points loses effect. It just becomes a constantly inflating value where "progress" is equated to "playing a sufficient amount" rather than a measure of actual skill level.
For the infrequent players who don't keep up the inflation, bonus points isn't exactly motivating. Personally I would rather see true MMR as it is a better indicator.
Of course for the most playing masses, people won't research enough to understand how it works exactly, and bonus points serves its purpose as an illusion of progress, just as blizzard intended.
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On November 04 2010 12:28 k20 wrote:
I punish infrequent players.
the next baller in the making.
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On November 04 2010 15:01 Ocedic wrote:
Well, the less you play, you will have less PSR than someone who plays more but with equal win % (give or take the variance that comes playing higher/lower people.) I actually think bonus pool, which supposedly was supposed to give infrequent players more of a chance, amplifies the problem.
PSR just keeps growing and growing due to bonus pool (and more players being added to the player pool, but I would say bonus pool makes a bigger impact.) If you play infrequently, you will not be using up all of the bonus pool, whereas frequent players will. Thus, the system because backwards.
They should really consider reworking or removing bonus pool.
that sums it up nicely. the bonus pool actually rewards inactivity and discourages people from grinding past their bonus pool allowance.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=159093
there is good information about the ladder system in that thread.
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It's so annoying how the pt system is useless to determine how good your opponents are. I frequently play and beat 1800+ pt diamonds, and then get consistently rolled by my personal friends who are 1500, 1700 pt diamonds.
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Canada1637 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:01 Trentelshark wrote:
I find the difficulty of your opponents isn't very well implemented. If I go on a winning streak of say 5+ games I can guarantee the next 10+ will be against people "favoured" and checking the points after game they're not just slightly favoured, they're substantially favoured. I enjoy a challenge but when I'm getting obliterated game after game I'm learning nothing short of what I already know I'm doing wrong. I can't necessarily improve on those things when I'm getting face smashed because frustration eventually sets in.
Yes I want to play slightly better people, but I'd like an even mix of even and slightly better not a streak of slightly/heavily better, and then when BNet finally feels bad for me a streak of lower skilled players.
I agree, if I go on any kind of streak I either end up vs players far better or far worse than me.... It feels far too volatile....
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On November 03 2010 05:51 Nyxs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:44 Deathstar wrote:On November 03 2010 05:38 Hypatio wrote:
I'm about a 1.1k diamond at 78/68 win/loss with about 400 unused bonus points as I don't play too often. It seems that on average, I am placed against people with about 1500 pts and probably half of them are 1550-1750. This is considered an even match by the ladder system. Now, I understand that I am placed against people with a higher score because it thinks that I am better than people with my score, but it seems that in terms of my score I am punished because it is harder for me to increase my score than someone for which 1.1k is their actual skill level.
IMO, it would be better if I am still placed against players on my level as determined by MMR but that my score increase is determined by the score differential rather than the MMR differential. Would this be better? Or is the current system acting as it should? It's just frustrating to me when I see someone who clearly isn't doing bad (facing me isn't the result of a losing streak) and has 1.7k points is treated as an even match with me.
What do you think? Yeah I agree. Basing matches on actual points instead of MMR would be so much better. It makes no sense to get only 10-14 points (without bonus pool) if you beat someone who has over 500 more points than you. No of course you should get only 10-14 points. Your opponent having more points doesn't make him a better player per say considering your skill is based on MMR and not your points. He only played more then you which resulted in having more points it doesn't actually make him better. So for people that have large amount of points but suck ass giving away tons of points would be imbalanced. You get an amount of points rewarded considering your opponents SKILL/MMR.
if they judged skill by points, then these lesser skilled players wouldnt have lots of points to begin with. this is the whole point, u basically proved that points should be the measure of skill and how ppl are matched. but blizzard in all their wisdom wanted lesser skilled players to be able to rank and acheive a decent amount of points just by playing lots of games. this would make their game a lot more popular. same thing happened with wc3. it's really stupid.
points would actually mean something if you are only able to play ppl within 100-200 points of yourself. then after you have searched for X amount of time, they will increase your range up to a limit of say 500 so you can find games easier when you are at the top.
but then many ppl wont break 1000 points and would prolly cry once they realize their true rank
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EPT
