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On November 03 2010 06:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually I did misspeak though because you can't really know your MMR because of division influences (since divisions aren't equal).
wait how does division affect anything? it's not like you only play players within your division. while division rankings mean nothing (due to some have stronger players than others), your overall points aren't affected by this.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Yeah I'm not too happy about having to use up 350 bonus points by playing against people with ratings 200-400 higher than me. It would be nice if there was some system to help people get back into the game when they've been inactive for a while.
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On November 03 2010 06:19 Excalibur_Z wrote:
No, points aren't comparable between divisions. There are some divisions that are weighted higher than others. For example, everybody knows that Medivac Alamo and Medic Mu etc are the "good" divisions, and that's reflected by the Top 200 consistently having members from those divisions. David Kim's Scout Kilo division is not weighted the same, and although he has more points, he's further down in the Top 200. We learned at Blizzcon that the Top 200 is done by points with division modifications removed.
do you have a link this conversation that happened at Blizzcon? I want to read what they have to say about the ladder/MMR/division/top 200.
How are some divisions 'weighted higher'? If I beat someone with X pts, X MMR in a division, then beat a player in a different division also with X pts, X MMR, I'll get a different amount of points?
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Calgary26004 Posts
I still don't get why there is a MMR and points. The points are actually meaningless, right? Top 200 is by MMR, points gained / lost is by MMR.
So what's the point of points?
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United States12273 Posts
On November 03 2010 06:51 dagene wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually I did misspeak though because you can't really know your MMR because of division influences (since divisions aren't equal). wait how does division affect anything? it's not like you only play players within your division. while division rankings mean nothing (due to some have stronger players than others), your overall points aren't affected by this.
They are. That's why it's confusing. Heishe brought up an interesting theory which I think is correct, where each division represents a given MMR range within your league. That means that when everybody is put into their division, everybody else will be considered by the system to be relatively even in skill, which would ideally make your division a reliable section of the regional ladder. Say your league has an MMR range of 1000-2000, and maybe your division encompasses players between 1500-1600. That 1500-1600 range is only accurate at the time of placement and will deviate over time. However, it sort of breaks down in Diamond because the skill gap within Diamond itself is huge. That's why the Master and Grandmaster leagues are being added.
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I'm a 1900+ diamond 1on1 protoss player, and today I had to play against a 1600 point bronze player ^^
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On November 03 2010 05:44 Uhh Negative wrote:
The way that points are now, there is pretty much almost nothing you can infer from points. It's sad that our true rankings are hidden but I believe that once the Masters and GM leagues come out that we will actually be able to see who is actually ranked higher. Until then, we just have to keep playing and try to stay in the top 5% of diamond (I believe that's Masters league qualification).
is it top 5% or your own diamond league, or is it top 5% of ALL diamond league?
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On November 03 2010 06:59 Chill wrote:
I still don't get why there is a MMR and points. The points are actually meaningless, right? Top 200 is by MMR, points gained / lost is by MMR.
So what's the point of points?
Blizzard wants their rating system to be opaque so that people cannot intentionally just barely stay in lower leagues and abuse newbies or something.
Also, as much as people want to complain about points, they're pretty accurate. 90% of the time if I play someone who is more than 200 points above or below me in a custom game or tournament, the game is completely one sided.
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On November 03 2010 06:59 Chill wrote:
I still don't get why there is a MMR and points. The points are actually meaningless, right? Top 200 is by MMR, points gained / lost is by MMR.
So what's the point of points?
Top 200 isn't only by MMR, they have some kind of inactivity penalty or something because whenever players don't play for a week (which shouldn't affect their MMR), they fall on the top 200. It's approximately MMR though.
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On November 03 2010 07:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:51 dagene wrote:On November 03 2010 06:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually I did misspeak though because you can't really know your MMR because of division influences (since divisions aren't equal). wait how does division affect anything? it's not like you only play players within your division. while division rankings mean nothing (due to some have stronger players than others), your overall points aren't affected by this. They are. That's why it's confusing. Heishe brought up an interesting theory which I think is correct, where each division represents a given MMR range within your league. That means that when everybody is put into their division, everybody else will be considered by the system to be relatively even in skill, which would ideally make your division a reliable section of the regional ladder. Say your league has an MMR range of 1000-2000, and maybe your division encompasses players between 1500-1600. That 1500-1600 range is only accurate at the time of placement and will deviate over time. However, it sort of breaks down in Diamond because the skill gap within Diamond itself is huge. That's why the Master and Grandmaster leagues are being added.
This seems a rather terrible way to go about things unless there is lateral movement in leagues which to my knowledge there isn't. So you are stuck within a division throughout a season even though you could surpass the skill within your division. Seems odd
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On November 03 2010 07:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:51 dagene wrote:On November 03 2010 06:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually I did misspeak though because you can't really know your MMR because of division influences (since divisions aren't equal). wait how does division affect anything? it's not like you only play players within your division. while division rankings mean nothing (due to some have stronger players than others), your overall points aren't affected by this. They are. That's why it's confusing. Heishe brought up an interesting theory which I think is correct, where each division represents a given MMR range within your league. That means that when everybody is put into their division, everybody else will be considered by the system to be relatively even in skill, which would ideally make your division a reliable section of the regional ladder. Say your league has an MMR range of 1000-2000, and maybe your division encompasses players between 1500-1600. That 1500-1600 range is only accurate at the time of placement and will deviate over time. However, it sort of breaks down in Diamond because the skill gap within Diamond itself is huge. That's why the Master and Grandmaster leagues are being added.
I thought divisions were created on as-needed basis?
Does this theory suggest there are a pre-set # of divisions when a season starts?
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Everybody is ignoring the real problem of the points system: all of the threads, posts, questions, and FAQs about how the ladder works indicates that there is a problem with the battle.net design.
Good game design should lead to an intuitive system that works in a way that people can understand. The currently ranking system is clearly a confusing mess.
Just yesterday my older brother was asking me "why did I go from 1st in silver to 1st in gold in a single game, and why do you have fewer points than me but are in diamond?" The dude has a PHD in mathematics. If a god-damn professor of mathematics can't figure out your point system you've gone off the deep end from a design standpoint.
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The point of the bonus pool is to make it slightly more even for the player who plays less often. But Blizz still wants to reward the players who play more.
this reminds me of a random thing i am learning about in a psych class right now:
+ Show Spoiler + in the end Blizz is just a company (a company that makes really good games) but in the end like any and every company what really matters is the bottom line, the money that they earn. For Blizz to make money they need you to want to buy there games and by rewarding playing more they oprently condition (effect how you make choices) you to want to play the game more often so you can be ranked better. Then because you spend more of your time playing the game you are more likely to enjoy the game and wish to buy more of them. (lol after writing this i am now thinking that it is highly unlikely that anyone will actually make it all the way through my long drawn out school lesson)
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i really dont understand the division thing. i got placed in diamond i think a day after release. my division has quite the high point average (im barely top 20 with ~1750-1800). but why does that matter at all? i still play the same players as evryone else. so why should my points be worth more then the points of someone in a "worse" division?
in what division you are is only decided by the time you get into diamond. and you cant get out of it ever. so why weigh divisions different? im confused >.<
On November 03 2010 07:16 Dental Floss wrote:
Everybody is ignoring the real problem of the points system: all of the threads, posts, questions, and FAQs about how the ladder works indicates that there is a problem with the battle.net design.
Good game design should lead to an intuitive system that works in a way that people can understand. The currently ranking system is clearly a confusing mess.
true dat. when a system cant even properly rank anyone ("points dont mean anything! ") and at the same time confuses and frustrates evryone with no one beeing able to explain what is going on then there is only one word that describes it. fail.
only thing it does kinda well is matchmaking. but that could still be the case without all that crap and mystery around it.
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what can one do.. it is what it is..
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United States12273 Posts
On November 03 2010 06:58 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 06:19 Excalibur_Z wrote:
No, points aren't comparable between divisions. There are some divisions that are weighted higher than others. For example, everybody knows that Medivac Alamo and Medic Mu etc are the "good" divisions, and that's reflected by the Top 200 consistently having members from those divisions. David Kim's Scout Kilo division is not weighted the same, and although he has more points, he's further down in the Top 200. We learned at Blizzcon that the Top 200 is done by points with division modifications removed.
do you have a link this conversation that happened at Blizzcon? I want to read what they have to say about the ladder/MMR/division/top 200. How are some divisions 'weighted higher'? If I beat someone with X pts, X MMR in a division, then beat a player in a different division also with X pts, X MMR, I'll get a different amount of points?
I don't. It was off camera and took place after the panel ended, just when we had a moment to talk with Josh Menke (the statistician from the multiplayer panel).
From what we can gather, the division weighting is done to normalize player points across divisions by appearance.
In the example you gave, you would get the same amount of points because both players have the same MMR. However, your points will be adjusted and someone in a different division than you would receive a higher or lower amount of points for beating those same players, all other things being equal.
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On November 03 2010 07:19 Bvar wrote:
what can one do.. it is what it is..
Hey man you should play competitive Superman64. I heard that game is great!
Whats that? You don't want to play Superman64? Why not? I mean, it is what it is...what you can you do?
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United States12273 Posts
On November 03 2010 07:10 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 03 2010 06:51 dagene wrote:On November 03 2010 06:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Actually I did misspeak though because you can't really know your MMR because of division influences (since divisions aren't equal). wait how does division affect anything? it's not like you only play players within your division. while division rankings mean nothing (due to some have stronger players than others), your overall points aren't affected by this. They are. That's why it's confusing. Heishe brought up an interesting theory which I think is correct, where each division represents a given MMR range within your league. That means that when everybody is put into their division, everybody else will be considered by the system to be relatively even in skill, which would ideally make your division a reliable section of the regional ladder. Say your league has an MMR range of 1000-2000, and maybe your division encompasses players between 1500-1600. That 1500-1600 range is only accurate at the time of placement and will deviate over time. However, it sort of breaks down in Diamond because the skill gap within Diamond itself is huge. That's why the Master and Grandmaster leagues are being added. I thought divisions were created on as-needed basis? Does this theory suggest there are a pre-set # of divisions when a season starts?
I think they still are created as-needed, but for whatever range needs to be created. Maybe a 1400-1500 MMR division needs to be created, or a 1700-1800 division, something like that.
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I think it does...
i just play on some weekends and the system try to throw me stronger opponent in both my accs ...
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Same here, I can only play during the weekend : I've got 380 bonus pool points, I'm only 1400 diamond and I keep beeing matched against 1.8k-2k players..Last time I was favourite against a 1.7k player hence winning only +15 it's really hard to climb up especially since I can only play a couple of games per week :/
I think the bonus pool should be used like in beta because I'll never be able to use it all
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EPT
