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On October 08 2010 03:10 NoXious90 wrote:
Just as a semantic aside, the word 'reactionary' essentially means someone who is opposed to political change. The word you're looking for is 'reactive'.
naa... Dude is all about leaving fruit taxes ALONE!!!!
I think watching Day[9]'s review of this noob was very helpful. He really does have a great sense of timing and I have yet to see a player multi-task on the same level as him. The macro and simultaneously executed attacks were so beautiful.
another thing that he really pushes is mind games. in multiple interviews he talks about the importance of being willing to do a risky all in. I think some of the opponents were less brazen early on because they knew he would 6pool if given the chance.
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if the opponent tries to wall in with 1 base or even 2, don't try to break in, resort to expand instead.
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On October 07 2010 05:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Terrans are the race that decide with force that Zerg need counter with. If it is the other way around, the Terran is not playing correctly Certainly, that is the way the matchup usually goes. However, what this thread points out is that that is not how Cool plays. Cool is very aggressive. One thing I noticed is that he often uses aggression to defend. That is, the enemy will start a push towards Cool's base, and rather than either meeting them in the middle or fighting in his own base, he'd run units around the side and up to the enemy's base, forcing their army to return to defend. Another thing I picked up on is how much emphasis Cool places on getting a good surround. I mean, every Zerg knows that surrounding is important. But Cool treats it as *essential*. He will happily engage with half an army just to be able to send his other half around the back for a surround. That IdrA style of just running waves and waves of units directly at the enemy and relying on economy to allow him to brute force his way to a victory is the exact opposite of how Cool plays. The last thing, of course, is baneling drops. I don't think there was a single match where Cool made banelings where he didn't drop them.
Good observation. Fruitseller seems like a Careful player who makes Calculated Risks. He knows from experience that pure macro aggressive play will lose because of stronger teran balls and multidrop harassment, so he makes spine crawlers, mobile units (mutaliks, zerglings) and infestors to defend. These units also seem to work marvelously to slow down big pushes/backstab while he waits for his ultralisks to pop out.
Fruitseller keeps his characteristic cool and is always using active agile units to maintain knowledge of what his opponent is doing, poking around to find any weakness in the defenses as he drones up. This also buys him time for the powerful Zerg Tier 3. It allows him to not blindly overreact and keep drone production going until his opponent is ready to move out. Since he has already opened all useful tech options, he can pop out an army of the exact composition he needs to fend off the push.
It is because Terrans are so agressive that he enjoys so much success. In a lot of games he wins essentially by destroying the whole Terran army in one or two waves or getting a great economic advantage by denying harassment (a full dropship is a big investment).
The guy is brilliant and has really done his homework analysing the usual TvZ play (no Ghosts, no Ravens). It's too bad Hydras are mostly useless in that matchup (unless... Marauders+Thors???).
Other things I noticed :
-Very fast expand style, with confidence that he can still defend the early pressure
-3rd Queen on 2 bases pretty often to defend vs banshees, spread creep and heal mutas.
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I have to admit, watching FruitDealer play in the GSL really helped me improve my zerg play. It helped me realise that I too, was making too much army too early and not enough drones, crippling myself later on, and how to watch for my opponents movement. Just wish I could execute it all a tenth as well as he does, but I guess that's the difference between playing a few games a night and spending ten hours a day practicing 
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I want to see some replays of fruitseller vs boxer or nada.
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Match 1 is hardly a good enough analysis. Artosis or Tasteless made the more insightful point that HopeTorture was positioned poorly with the bulk of his army while trying to take out the two expansions.
With proper positioning in the middle FruitDealer wouldn't have been able to save both of them with his reinforcements.
Match 2. HopeTorture didn't do a traditional Terran cliff drop. His biggest mistake was not taking the marines he had available with the tank. If he had done so the spine crawler wouldn't have killed the tank and the Natural expan would've been under so much pressure Fruit Dealer would've been dramatically slower to push out when he did.
MAtch 3. Kulas Ravine was not an example of FruitDealer reacting but forcing. His positioning of his forces to protect the expansion largley dictated how the drop could be done and led to its eventual destruction. It was HopeTorture who had to react and he did it poorly.
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On October 08 2010 01:22 Zeroes wrote:
I don't think the games with Hopetorture are good examples of ZvT I mean sure Cool is an awesome player but Hopetorture tried to play a macro game with a zerg player.
Uh...again. 2 games tank drop, 1 game proxy reaper. How is that not aggressive? How is that a "macro game"? Thats typical Terran early harass/aggression. Stop making excuses.
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I don't want to downplay his level of play, he is a progamer after all, but i think many of you grossly overpraise his ability. I mean, have you considered the argument from the standpoint that his opponents just weren't that good?
I admire his baneling use, but that's really the extent of it. Everything else he does it mostly standard zerg fare. His progamer roots means his macro control is very good, thus appears very elegant.
His real test imo comes in GSL S2. When he goes up against other competent players who are atleast at his level, other progamers such boxer, and those who don't suffer stage fright.
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Please, please, check Cool's BW progaming record:
60% ZvT (including 3-0 vs NaDa)
20% ZvZ
25% ZvP
I tend to be skeptical about style from BW transferring to SC2, but the results of Cool in SC2 seem to confirm that ZvT is really his specialty. So yeah, if he likes it and plays it a lot a lot a lot, then he develops godly timings. Sure, when he defends, he attacks. Day9 (zerg in BW) also recommends that.
And not only for zerg. As Chill pointed out, the other 2 races can be seen from the reactionary perspective too. So, if Cool has godly timing, what stops another race player to develop godly timings? How can this be the measure for zerg superiority, when it's not that zerg-specific.
In short, we say: "he wins zerg because he plays better RTS (timing, sense, reaction etc)", which really, isn't an argument that clarifies how to play zerg better, specifically.
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From my lowly perspective I think that FD has a tendency to all in eco time to time. This helps immensely against passive terrans who do small drops but is extremely dangerous in general if the terran instead decides to do one of the nasty timing pushes they can make in the time window when T3 is not here yet. Terran also sees when he is scouted and can react appropriately; ITR did not do it at all. Winning against predictable oponent is not so hard.
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Why do people think he lost that game because of hydras? Just because hydras suck?
Right as Hopetorture is setting up his army to push through fruit dealer's base, fruit dealer decides to do a HUGE doom drop into Hopeturture's base, splitting his army in half. This costs him the game because he never has quite enough units to break Hopetorture's push, but he gets so close several times and the units he used in the drop would have easily made the difference.
At the same time, the doom drop in Hopetorture's base gets almost no resistence, it would have been just as effective with half the units.
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disagree on game 3 ..
Expanding at the gold first actually forces the terran to react ASAP in order to not get outmacroed, FSeller meanwhile prepared a well thought defense for the predictable (because enforced) drop at the gold ledge
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EPT
