Hey. I couldn't see any threads about this hack, so I'm making this thread to point it out there, hope its not old news.
Today i played against some guy on the ladder who tried to DT rush me. I scouted it early and completely crushed him in the mid game. However, when i went to finish him he had something like 5-7 immortals already, which i thought was ridiculous considering he couldn't of created so many off 1-2 Robo bay's, and he'd made 5~ DT's already. However he was trash so it didn't make any difference to the final outcome.
So i watched the replay, and lo and behold, after he turned his gateways into warpgates he started warping in immortals.. yes, thats right, immortals. All without even having a robotics facility... Ridiculous?
Here are some screenshots of the immortals warping in, in case you don't want to watch the replay. + Show Spoiler +
lol Why immortals though, couldn't you make it so that you warp in motherships or something? lol Did you post this on the official blizzard forums? Posting it here is nice and all but i doubt tl can do much.
On September 08 2010 12:20 RailGuN wrote: lol Why immortals though, couldn't you make it so that you warp in motherships or something? lol Did you post this on the official blizzard forums? Posting it here is nice and all but i doubt tl can do much.
TL gets it first! Yeah im going to post there and use their email report system in a bit.
LOL I watched the replay. This is awesome. Would be nice for toss to have an EZ win against the 3 rax push :D. Oh well I guess just report him and see what happens.
On September 08 2010 12:26 groms wrote: LOL I watched the replay. This is awesome. Would be nice for toss to have an EZ win against the 3 rax push :D. Oh well I guess just report him and see what happens.
Go 4gate even 5gate if you scout 3 rax, keyforcefield and gege,
Also, kinda ironic since immortals were intended be warped in the first place ^_^
On September 08 2010 12:26 groms wrote: LOL I watched the replay. This is awesome. Would be nice for toss to have an EZ win against the 3 rax push :D. Oh well I guess just report him and see what happens.
Wow, after reading the first paragraph I thought you just got raped by hallucinations, but (after watching replay) holy shit, that's really weird.
Great job killing him
Edit: after closer inspection, the immortals cost the same and invoke the 'normal' 55 second cooldown for their production (55 secs to make @ robo), but they're just from warpgates....
On September 08 2010 12:21 STS17 wrote: Technically speaking you used to be able to do this during the alpha stages. Maybe he is just playing a really really old version of the game?
Seriously though, you should report this immediately if you have not already. Thanks for the heads up on it.
Updates are forced when available so it is impossible he was playing a really old version.
Seems retarded though, spending 60 dollars and then use such an obvious hack. I wonder what goes though these peoples minds when they do bullshit stunts like the one OP faced. Hope he gets banned,buys a new copy then banned again after an hour.
I just want to say that for those who may think that the OP is lying, Immortals warping in isn't very unbelievable because they were Warpgate units at some point pre-beta, and could indeed be warped in.
If this is a hack/exploit, it doesn't seem unreasonable that there's a way to make Immortals 'count' as Warpgate units again.
I think this is a glitch, not a hack. It is like the glitches we used to have in SC:BW, drone floating, HT float, CC hover, SCV build anywhere and the latest hydra stack. We can still stack the workers and attack move with the help of a geyser, maybe the immortal wrap is just a glitch and hopefully will be fixed soon.
On September 08 2010 12:42 Kigari wrote: Yet another great example of "marvelous coding"...
If they can't even lock or remove trigger events that can be used for hacking, do you really expect them to be able to patch/balance the game ?
Keep dreamin'...
I'm not used to reply to trolls but come on, why the blind hate? We are talking about blizzard, when it comes to patching and balancing, they know their stuff.
This kind of glitches will eventually be fixed, anyway it was a really impressive exploit.
yeah Yugusog has hacked vs me also. He ignored me straight after to. should of saved the replay but iv already got like 3 hacker saved replays so didnt bother since iv reported all 3 and theyr still playing.
If this is maphack it's quite weird... Like you won't he has immortals without robos... dear god what's next? zerg with carriers? he'll claim he parasited my probe and built tech for it
so ummm... i know blizzard likes to do the whole ban in waves thing but.... things are getting a little out of control and i really wish these hack/exploits would be dealt with
lmfao bnet 2.0 something subtle like maphacks will always exist but drop hacks and immortal/warpgate hacks are just over the top ridiculous wtf does blizzard think they are doing letting bnet 2.0 go on completely void of any anti hack protection
theres also a guy "vnrock" who had drop hacked multiple people and basically left/dropped but didnt get credit for the loss just brief mental math can prove that he drop hacks with over 200 games played but only 160 games on his W/L record http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/716501/1/Vnrock/ bnet 2.0 can't even block/detect the most blatantly obvious hacks of them all
On September 08 2010 12:42 Kigari wrote: Yet another great example of "marvelous coding"...
If they can't even lock or remove trigger events that can be used for hacking, do you really expect them to be able to patch/balance the game ?
Keep dreamin'...
These kinds of moronic posts irritate me to no end.
First of all, Blizzards hack/bug fixing team is most likely COMPLETELY separate from their balancing team. In WoW, Blizzard has an entire department completely devoted to game balance and testing things like this. I would not be suprised and would expect that the same is true for Starcraft, especially when they're dropping tons of money on making it on a succesful e-sport.
Second of all, Blizzard has always been known to ban in waves, which is why every few months you hear 'Blizzard bans 200,000 Accounts for exploiting'. When you use a hack like this Blizzard flags your account, and when the wave comes you get banned.
Thirdly, what the hell does an exploit have to do with blizzard ability to balance a game?
I wish people that are blind with Blizzard rage would just go back to the battle.net forums.
On September 08 2010 12:19 The_Pacifist wrote: Interesting fact: Immortals were originally intended to be warped in, not made out of the robotics facility.
If you could warp them in, I'd actually make them.
This is crazy. I wish Blizzard didn't do bans in waves, or at least the waves should be closer together. This guy should be banned right away, not given another week/month/however long to continue disrupting people's games.
On September 08 2010 13:08 WaddleD wrote: I feel like I've seen immortals get warped in at some point in the campaign. I could just be crazy though.
You're not crazy. It's the protoss mission where Zeratul runs into the resurrecting Hybrid for the first time. When you give the underpowered robo facility on the map pylon power, an immortal will instantly warp in, though every immortal afterward must be made normally.
Seems to me that if you were able to do this in the early stages of the game, that somehow there would be a way to manipulate code to enable it again. Obviously a hack/exploit though, pretty wild stuff
wow.. I didn't know it was possible. It would be nice if immortal really did come from warpgate. I remember an early build when it was like that, but it was too op so the put him in the robo.
On September 08 2010 13:07 R1CH wrote: Oh Blizzard, when will you ever develop decent netcode. Absolutely inexcusable that this is possible.
I'm not surprised to be honest. The number of ridiculous hacks I witnessed in BW and war3 - why would the company that made them suddenly become competent at stopping hackers? The only blizzard game that is decent antihack is WoW but that's completely server side controlled. Oh wait... there's an idea for you Blizzard!
Wow it is real... that's abominable. Battle report it was possible, but I cannot imagine how that could be hacked in... he must have transported data from previous versions of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if we see planet crackers from his future replays.
The only alternative explanation for this is that the Immortals were skinned Stalkers. However that explanation is something I doubt as these types of hacks were readily available back in Warcraft III, and so implementing them into SC2 wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
On September 08 2010 13:07 InfiniteIce wrote: File name: Immortal_Hack.SC2Replay Version: 1.0.3.16291 Date: 2010-09-07 17:37:03 Game length: 00:09:49 Game speed: Faster Game type: AutoMM <--- Real Ladder. Format: 1v1 Gateway: Southeast Asia Clients: Optical, yuGusoG Map name: Lost Temple Map file: cf/a1/cfa196a601daaadd3d29a16cd1b2cf0a2917ad8d959ca9813ca12ce123782760.s2ma
Heh, I was just about to post the same thing. Beat me to it. Looks like it is indeed legit.
Anyways that's a pretty funny hack. I think I would have preferred to be able to warp in colossus, but to each his own I guess.
That doesn't really say much. It's very easy to change the game type in the replay file. But it doesn't matter anyway since the OP seems to have played against him in a ladder match, and if he used a customized map you wouldn't be able to watch the replay without having the exact same map.
I think the hack is much simpler than people are making it out to be. I don't know exactly how starcraft 2 works code-wise at all, but I'll give u an example of what this could possibly be.
Lets say a wargate is building A. Building A (once turned into a warpgate) can build a few things
So whenever you build something, lets (for simplification purposes) say that the game calls up a number based on what you tell it to build. So if I want a stalker, and I go to a warpgate and click "stalker" the game says "BuildUnit 2" and bam I get a stalker. Now from a warpgate we can only build these 5 things; however in early releases of the game you could build immortals from a warpgate. So lets say the "BuildUnit 6=Immortal" command is what was used to build immortals. In that version of the game when you hit immortal, the game would run "BuildUnit6=Immortals" and bam you'd get an immortal.
So what im guessing, is that the code to build an immortal was still there. The problem is, there was no way to tell a warpgate to build an immortal, you could only tell it to build units 1-5. What I think the exploit does is tells the warpgate to use code that it already has built in it, just isn't accessible without some modification to the game.
I hope I explained this, not sure I got across what I meant.
* Disclaimer: This is just my speculation, it could be entirely wrong
That is pretty ridiculous that it's possible and it's pretty pathetic he is proud of it.
Has blizzard even responded to hacker threads on their forums? I looked through several pages of Blizz and didn't see blizz posts in threads about the maphacks or this one yet of course.
Ha, well it's a good laugh to see such a thing, a pretty ballsy hack I must say. I can only assume a ban will be forthcoming shortly, you really can't get any more blatant than that.
On September 08 2010 12:36 Crissaegrim wrote: NOOOO its not a hack! Its a "technical glitch" that should continue to remain in game for further abuse.
Maybe its Blizz thats doing some sort of weird balance test? lol.
No, it is a hack. My guess how hes doing this is pretty simple, using a program to allow you to directly input commands bypassing the command card, because the warp gate does have the "warp in immortal ability", it just isn't on the command card.
These kinds of moronic posts irritate me to no end.
First of all, Blizzards hack/bug fixing team is most likely COMPLETELY separate from their balancing team. In WoW, Blizzard has an entire department completely devoted to game balance and testing things like this. I would not be suprised and would expect that the same is true for Starcraft, especially when they're dropping tons of money on making it on a succesful e-sport.
Second of all, Blizzard has always been known to ban in waves, which is why every few months you hear 'Blizzard bans 200,000 Accounts for exploiting'. When you use a hack like this Blizzard flags your account, and when the wave comes you get banned.
Thirdly, what the hell does an exploit have to do with blizzard ability to balance a game?
I wish people that are blind with Blizzard rage would just go back to the battle.net forums.
And I wish people blind with blizzard fanboy would go back to b-net too. He wasn't being very politic, but he presents a good point, being that this "hack" exploits some pretty basic stuff that should never have been there. A quick look through blizzards game database reveals that a lot of the data is really sloppily done.
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
This post is just ignorant. It has nothing to do with the programming team (which was pretty well done), rather, the developers in charge of compiling data.
I think the hack is much simpler than people are making it out to be. I don't know exactly how starcraft 2 works code-wise at all, but I'll give u an example of what this could possibly be.
Lets say a wargate is building A. Building A (once turned into a warpgate) can build a few things
So whenever you build something, lets (for simplification purposes) say that the game calls up a number based on what you tell it to build. So if I want a stalker, and I go to a warpgate and click "stalker" the game says "BuildUnit 2" and bam I get a stalker. Now from a warpgate we can only build these 5 things; however in early releases of the game you could build immortals from a warpgate. So lets say the "BuildUnit 6=Immortal" command is what was used to build immortals. In that version of the game when you hit immortal, the game would run "BuildUnit6=Immortals" and bam you'd get an immortal.
Basically this. It has nothing do with programming, just sloppy database management.
Even though it's a hack... that's actually quite impressive, haha.
lol decent maphacks are way harder to make then this. Nothing impressive at all with this scrubby hacker. All it does is bypass game UI (command card), I doubt it even injects any packets directly.
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
This post is just ignorant. It has nothing to do with the programming team (which was pretty well done), rather, the developers in charge of compiling data.
[
Um, if you actually read my post instead of assuming, i am defending the programming team... The dev's compiling the data and resources are engineers too on the team....
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
This post is just ignorant. It has nothing to do with the programming team (which was pretty well done), rather, the developers in charge of compiling data.
[
Um, if you actually read my post instead of assuming, i am defending the programming team... The dev's compiling the data and resources are engineers too on the team....
Then what was this whole rant about?
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
All I'm saying is that this mistake was pretty stupid imo, and the in game databases are just really sloppy to begin with,
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
This post is just ignorant. It has nothing to do with the programming team (which was pretty well done), rather, the developers in charge of compiling data.
[
Um, if you actually read my post instead of assuming, i am defending the programming team... The dev's compiling the data and resources are engineers too on the team....
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Rant? Did you even read the earlier posts? People are bashing Blizzard's programming team saying they have no clue what they are doing... I am merley pointing out that bugs will occur regardless of the amount of internal testing you do...
Assuming you need a 3rd party hack to do this, it was not any individual programmers fault as he just develops what the design says for it to pass the end user testing.
Fault is with the designers and lead programmers for designing a game that is so easily exploited. Or it is the management for not wanting to fork out the budget for server hosted games which cannot be hacked from the client.
You would think at least they have learned from mistakes from their past games?
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Saying the whole programming team doesn't know how to code properly is just ignorant, i mean they make games that sell millions of copies worldwide, i think they know what they are doing... Blizzard will fix this...
This post is just ignorant. It has nothing to do with the programming team (which was pretty well done), rather, the developers in charge of compiling data.
[
Um, if you actually read my post instead of assuming, i am defending the programming team... The dev's compiling the data and resources are engineers too on the team....
Then what was this whole rant about?
The people bashing Blizzard's coding obviously has no clue what its like to actually develop a game from scratch. Bugs happen no matter how much internal QA is put in to it, you need a huge amount of users testing before everything gets exposed, for any game and any application. Think of all the little things that people didn't find out in BW until years after it's been released.
Rant? Did you even read the earlier posts? People are bashing Blizzard's programming team saying they have no clue what they are doing... I am merley pointing out that bugs will occur regardless of the amount of internal testing you do...
You may want to re-read the thread?
Look thats exactly what I thought you were doing on all accounts. Let me rephrase it.
And as I said, it has nothing to do with internal testing nor the programming team or w/e. This isn't OMG OBSCURE UNFORSEEABLE BUG, I'm surprised this isn't happening more frequently with the way SC2 gameplay databases are set up (very sloppily).
I can give you a lot of examples with really stupid setups. Basically because I've been working with the editor a lot recently :/.
Fault is with the designers and lead programmers for designing a game that is so easily exploited.
See, this isn't some fundamental flaw with the game, nor is it unforseeable QA mistake. Its basically "Hey lets just go around removing units, and instead of thoroughly removing them and taking an extra minute, just edit one data feild instead".
Basically, under the "Gateway Warp" skill, there are a few subcommands. 5. And when they removed 1, instead of actually removing it, they just removed the UI command in the "command card" field. And they do this a lot too. Pretty sloppy imo.
I'm curious as to how long it will take blizzard to patch this out. It would be fairly easy to fix i imagine, so i wouldn't be surprised to see a "bug fix" patch soon.
On September 08 2010 14:21 Half wrote: Look thats exactly what I thought you were doing on all accounts. Let me rephrase it.
And as I said, it has nothing to do with internal testing nor the programming team or w/e. This isn't OMG OBSCURE UNFORSEEABLE BUG, I'm surprised this isn't happening more frequently with the way SC2 gameplay databases are set up (very sloppily).
I can give you a lot of examples with really stupid setups. Basically because I've been working with the editor a lot recently :/. See, this isn't some fundamental flaw with the game, nor is it unforseeable QA mistake. Its basically "Hey lets just go around removing units, and instead of thoroughly removing them and taking an extra minute, just edit one data feild instead".
Basically, under the "Gateway Warp" skill, there are a few subcommands. 5. And when they removed 1, instead of actually removing it, they just removed the UI command in the "command card" field. And they do this a lot too. Pretty sloppy imo.
Yeah, the ability lists are so full of holes and old, unused stuff. +2 immortal range, anyone? All you need is a robotics bay...
On September 08 2010 14:52 Inori wrote: Tidings of doom are upon us!
This hack proves that Blizzard doesn't check anything that is sent/recieved in-game. This means that this is just a tip of an iceberg if they don't react soon enough (and 99% that they won't, that guy won't even be banned for another 2-3 months at least). Theoretically a hacker can do whatever whenever as long as the packet recieving game client eats it. And if it doesn't.. that's just another drop hack right there. Jeesh. Can't wait for ICCUP 2.0.
Except they're limited to things that are possible within the game client for a ladder game. The immortal warp-in is just old data that was overlooked in the game client and can be quickly patch out.
This hack proves that Blizzard doesn't check anything that is sent/recieved in-game. This means that this is just a tip of an iceberg if they don't react soon enough (and 99% that they won't, that guy won't even be banned for another 2-3 months at least). Theoretically a hacker can do whatever whenever as long as the packet recieving game client eats it. And if it doesn't.. that's just another drop hack right there. Jeesh. Can't wait for ICCUP 2.0.
Actually, thankfully, this isn't really 100%, all this hack does is send action commands bypassing the command card, which I'm pretty sure is 100% local.
Its definitely not actually hacking the host servers and changing shared data.
The ability to warp in immortals would definitely make protoss WAAAYYY too good at breaking sieges (just get more gateways to warp in stuff instead of even needing to make more robo facs!)
Still, the idea is completely hilarious, and the fact that this was even possible is definitely an indication of sloppy cleanup on Blizzard's part.
If there was a +2 range upgrade enabled for immortals....man......that would make the things actually useful against marauders instead of getting kited all day long.
On September 08 2010 15:05 Adonisto wrote: The guy is probably banned already. I wanted to add him to check his build order but I can't. "Unable to add this friend".
If you tried from a NA account i think i found your problem.
On September 08 2010 15:05 Adonisto wrote: The guy is probably banned already. I wanted to add him to check his build order but I can't. "Unable to add this friend".
If you tried from a NA account i think i found your problem.
Make sense I didn't realise it was from another server. Oh well.
The warpgates have the ability to warp in immortals, there's just no button for it. They require twilight council to be warped in.
The gateways have the ability to build immortals, but it's commented out. If it wasn't they would be able to build immortals from gateways as well and they wouldn't have any requirements, so they could be built at the start of the game from the first gate.
The hacker's response is interesting, but at least there is somewhat of a moral framework behind his actions.
I mean, the worst thing would be 1) if this was proliferated and 2) if it was used to ruin tournaments, and neither seem to be happening, so at least we have that much security.
the fact that this guy shows his hack makes me think he's A) a good enough hacker to bypass the system and constantly make hacks and avoid bans B) some noob using a trainer that's being given out to all kinds of people who leech off of hacking sites. either way, it's not good.
On September 08 2010 15:49 Herculix wrote: the fact that this guy shows his hack makes me think he's A) a good enough hacker to bypass the system and constantly make hacks and avoid bans B) some noob using a trainer that's being given out to all kinds of people who leech off of hacking sites. either way, it's not good.
Blizzard has no way of tracking hackers if they use guest passes.... That's the problem.
On September 08 2010 15:49 Herculix wrote: the fact that this guy shows his hack makes me think he's A) a good enough hacker to bypass the system and constantly make hacks and avoid bans B) some noob using a trainer that's being given out to all kinds of people who leech off of hacking sites. either way, it's not good.
There's a C btw, he's hacking for the challenge but doesn't want the game to be ruined, so he shows off his hacks to have them fixed asap while waving his epeen.
On September 08 2010 15:49 Herculix wrote: the fact that this guy shows his hack makes me think he's A) a good enough hacker to bypass the system and constantly make hacks and avoid bans B) some noob using a trainer that's being given out to all kinds of people who leech off of hacking sites. either way, it's not good.
There's a C btw, he's hacking for the challenge but doesn't want the game to be ruined, so he shows off his hacks to have them fixed asap while waving his epeen.
Except he isn't using a guest account. So C is extremely unlikely.
That is so wrong yet so amusing lol. Man I can see why they removed immortals from gateway/warpgates. If they were still available from gw/wg then 4gate push would be so OP it isn't even funny. And we'd be talking about Protoss imbalanceness and majority of top tier players being Protoss What a scenario :D
Edit: Available at gw/wg as in officially without any hacks.
man if blizzard doesnt do ban waves and bans as people report, they'd earn a hell lot more money since the idiots would probably buy a new one and continue hacking lols.
On September 08 2010 16:14 Bswhunter wrote: This is the same bug that allowed burrowed infestors to NP.
this isnt a bug at all.. it's like if you could make hydras morph into hacked lurkers in the middle of a game..
It is a bug, you can't abuse it without an external program, but it's possible, because of an error on Blizzard's side. Read my previous post for details.
Wow how awesome would it be to warp in every unit you tech to! Carriers, Collusus and everything! But cheating just sucks and blizz should not wait to long to fix/do something about it.
On September 08 2010 16:14 Bswhunter wrote: This is the same bug that allowed burrowed infestors to NP.
this isnt a bug at all.. it's like if you could make hydras morph into hacked lurkers in the middle of a game..
It is a bug, you can't abuse it without an external program, but it's possible, because of an error on Blizzard's side. Read my previous post for details.
On September 08 2010 16:14 Bswhunter wrote: This is the same bug that allowed burrowed infestors to NP.
this isnt a bug at all.. it's like if you could make hydras morph into hacked lurkers in the middle of a game..
It is a bug, you can't abuse it without an external program, but it's possible, because of an error on Blizzard's side. Read my previous post for details.
And how you got that information?
Knowledge of SC2s data structure+Common Sense.
Honestly I could probably whip up this "hack" in 30 minutes :/. (Not saying I will).
On September 08 2010 17:11 achacttn wrote: Haha... did the immortals still cost 250/100 though?
Yeah, i watched the replay and they appeared to be costing him the normal price. I may be mistaken on the exact numbers, but they certainly weren't free.
On September 08 2010 17:11 achacttn wrote: Haha... did the immortals still cost 250/100 though?
Yeah, i watched the replay and they appeared to be costing him the normal price. I may be mistaken on the exact numbers, but they certainly weren't free.
Most likely an external program that does a few memory edits which changes one of the other warp ins to point to the function to handle warping in immortals. eg button to warp in stalkers may change to the function which handles warping in immortals. This is not the exact case, but it would most likely be something along those lines.
I always had hard time vs Terran because the good ones (1000+ points) just kite my zealots or focus fire my stalkers. While Immortals are too slow to get into combat. These guys are better players than me, I have no clue how to deal with it just yet..
Let me say for the record that I didn't come up with the Immortal exploit, that was discovered by two other guys(simultaneously). Their name will remain anonymous but just take it from me, that the project as a whole is developed by a small team of guys who are just doing this for fun.
Here is a replay that does it justice. The replay is Protoss vs Protoss.
If you think I maphaxed, I didn't. As you could see in the bad replay(OP post) I had no idea the guys scv was still in my base ready to scout out my dark templars.
Anyway to solve all these problems I decided to use sentries.
This replay shows something I built for sentries so I can relax in my base and make Immortals while the enemy tries to get in. There is no maphax because I don't believe in it...
Sure there is a lot of haters out there and I really don't blame you for being a hater. I'm the opposite of you, but that is just the fact of life there is always going to be polar opposites. Pro-gamers and Pro-exploiters.
It makes sense to hate me because I tilt the games advantage for myself.. But there are other ways of looking at it.
For one this isn't public, and it never will be. All involved have been there and done that, we have no intention of ruining the game for everyone. Secondly we're not trying to keep it a massive secret, we don't care if you find out about what we discover, it's purely for entertainment. We are not trying to keep it a secret and sneak into some tournament league diminishing the integrity of the game, we are just playing as you do, with a few bent rules.
I guess if you have been hurt by warp'n immortals, on behalf of our small team, we're sorry. Just look on the bright side, not many people get to go up against these things.
I always had hard time vs Terran because the good ones (1000+ points) just kite my zealots or focus fire my stalkers. While Immortals are too slow to get into combat. These guys are better players than me, I have no clue how to deal with it just yet..
Let me say for the record that I didn't come up with the Immortal exploit, that was discovered by two other guys(simultaneously). Their name will remain anonymous but just take it from me, that the project as a whole is developed by a small team of guys who are just doing this for fun.
Here is a replay that does it justice. The replay is Protoss vs Protoss.
If you think I maphaxed, I didn't. As you could see in the bad replay(OP post) I had no idea the guys scv was still in my base ready to scout out my dark templars.
Anyway to solve all these problems I decided to use sentries.
This replay shows something I built for sentries so I can relax in my base and make Immortals while the enemy tries to get in. There is no maphax because I don't believe in it...
Sure there is a lot of haters out there and I really don't blame you for being a hater. I'm the opposite of you, but that is just the fact of life there is always going to be polar opposites. Pro-gamers and Pro-exploiters.
It makes sense to hate me because I tilt the games advantage for myself.. But there are other ways of looking at it.
For one this isn't public, and it never will be. All involved have been there and done that, we have no intention of ruining the game for everyone. Secondly we're not trying to keep it a massive secret, we don't care if you find out about what we discover, it's purely for entertainment. We are not trying to keep it a secret and sneak into some tournament league diminishing the integrity of the game, we are just playing as you do, with a few bent rules.
I guess if you have been hurt by warp'n immortals, on behalf of our small team, we're sorry. Just look on the bright side, not many people get to go up against these things.
I use cheats as well, but only in official tournaments with money price.. (*sarcasm*)
By the looks of it, a lot of people on the US servers seems haunted by cheaters. Is there such a large amount already?. I have yet to meet one on the EU server myself tho.
EDIT: But warping in Immortals would be so awesome! Overpowered, yes, but awesome.
On September 08 2010 17:41 Excludos wrote: By the looks of it, a lot of people on the US servers seems haunted by cheaters. Is there such a large amount already?. I have yet to meet one on the EU server myself tho.
Remember, this happened on the SEA server. Though this has been my first run in with a hacker, i know some people who have come across them several times.
For your amusement I will respond one last time. To one judgment, one which pierces at the fabric of my character and perhaps others. It has molded me into what I have become, going back to my childhood days emailing hacks@blizzard.com like a kid energetically trying to fix something he does not truly understand.
While you were emailing Blizzard new units, story lines, spells, and game ideas. I was there in the corner of the library writing up my amazing ways to fix the cheat problem.
I'm sure out of all those who hack, I do not stand alone. We all at some point wanted to help. So raise the question legit-gamers, why are no hackers helping patch the exploits before they go public?
Hackers were left to mold our own path, Blizzard created the monsters you despise, us. They augmented and trained us with littered crumbs along a path. Assert routines,rtti,and string references. Blizzard finally removed a lot of those crumbs, but now we don't need them anymore. Blizzard gave us all the experience we'll ever needed to understand games, understand how they work - to find things.. and to pass on that knowledge.
We created our own communities, caves at the very edge of nowhere. Blizzard ignored our kind, they ignored us, even the good ones from the very day we existed.
Well, to be fair, by going after bnetd they did kind of did alienate the hacker (ie. software progammer) community. At the end of line, you kind of want these guys on your side, and legislation/expansive EULAs are not going to do it.
That doesn't excuse people for cheating, though. I guess their perspective on the Battle.net ladder is a completely different one. While most of us probably think that getting into diamond should require blood, sweat and tears, they believe that it's just a silly game and it doesn't really matter what you do in this virtual environment (and they have a point, us SC2 ladder players are like WoW raiders).
thanks for the info OP ! However i would consider this a funny hack which should force blizz to a straighter advancing regarding hacking issues (they could say that drop hacks etc rely on tcp/ip, udp whatever, but this one clearly is a lack of programming and must be fixed in order to not get to much negative press)
On September 08 2010 18:00 Dagobert wrote: Goodness, have you guys read this hacking idiot's most recent b.net post? The pathos is so disturbingly disgusting. Blergh.
For your amusement I will respond one last time. To one judgment, one which pierces at the fabric of my character and perhaps others. It has molded me into what I have become, going back to my childhood days emailing hacks@blizzard.com like a kid energetically trying to fix something he does not truly understand.
While you were emailing Blizzard new units, story lines, spells, and game ideas. I was there in the corner of the library writing up my amazing ways to fix the cheat problem.
I'm sure out of all those who hack, I do not stand alone. We all at some point wanted to help. So raise the question legit-gamers, why are no hackers helping patch the exploits before they go public?
Hackers were left to mold our own path, Blizzard created the monsters you despise, us. They augmented and trained us with littered crumbs along a path. Assert routines,rtti,and string references. Blizzard finally removed a lot of those crumbs, but now we don't need them anymore. Blizzard gave us all the experience we'll ever needed to understand games, understand how they work - to find things.. and to pass on that knowledge.
We created our own communities, caves at the very edge of nowhere. Blizzard ignored our kind, they ignored us, even the good ones from the very day we existed.
lol he speaks of him and "his kind" as if they are another species :D idiots thats what they are
but I guess if you want to separate them here is a list Humans(and all animals) plants wet bread hackes
I think what the "hacker" is trying to say, is he's trying to have fun & forcing blizzard to fix their problems, they hacked so that blizzard will be aware of this & fix it as early as possible.
On September 08 2010 18:33 ReCharge wrote: I think what the "hacker" is trying to say, is he's trying to have fun & forcing blizzard to fix their problems, they hacked so that blizzard will be aware of this & fix it as early as possible.
*weird, I'm actually defending the hacker* xD
this is possibly the worst way to make blizzard aware of their problems...somebody loses 12 points and you lose 60 dollars..nj!
The oddest thing is that he talks about R1CH at one point so he must atleast read Team Liquid. Totally disgraceful to do that, even though it is kind awesome to see immortals warp in. Cheating like that in the ladder is despicable.
Though to be honest, after reading all the stuff he might be just pulling a leg with the forum posts. Or that he is crazy.
I would definitely be more likely to make more immortals if they were in the gateway... even though it really makes no sense for them to be. They're clearly more xxxcore, like the collossus.
On September 08 2010 19:22 Shizuru~ wrote: Warp in animation for Immortals actually looks pretty awesome, i wonder how would the warp in animation for collossus would look like..
how do you guys even know that this hack was sold by some guy for cash?
And I wish people blind with blizzard fanboy would go back to b-net too. He wasn't being very politic, but he presents a good point, being that this "hack" exploits some pretty basic stuff that should never have been there. A quick look through blizzards game database reveals that a lot of the data is really sloppily done.
Just thought I'd point out that your posting on a Blizzard fansite.
how do we know there is more hacks around servers or not i think its too bad wait for a game all those years spend too much money on it when it cmes out and cant play from lan with friends etc. we need to connect to bnet to play this game isnt battlenet for this how do we know there is no more hack on the game?
This reminds me of when I played b.net in the really early days. I was like.. 11 years old I think. I ran into this guy who was able to make incredibly powerful zealots. I never really saw it again after that, so, hopefully this stays pretty isolated. Kinda funny how shit like that stays with you through the years.
Well if this is possible, I can see how some drop hacks might work.
Some abilities, like the spawning pool's hidden 3rd zergling upgrade (which has no effect. No idea what it was ever supposed to do) might crash the game when used.
I guess it is only possible to warp in immortals via hacking, because it actually was possible in the very early stages of the game, and they found a way around the fix. Thats why we don't see him warping in collossi or carriers.
Imo Blizzard should hire a couple of (good) hackers and use them for debugging, most games contains loopholes and shitty coding at release anyway, might as well get an expert who excels at finding these weak links to find/fix it.
Anyway any hacking will hopefully be punsihed by bans, no way Blizzard can tolerate that kind of behaviour without any consequences.
Hacker said Hackers were left to mold our own path, Blizzard created the monsters you despise, us. They augmented and trained us with littered crumbs along a path. Assert routines,rtti,and string references. Blizzard finally removed a lot of those crumbs, but now we don't need them anymore. Blizzard gave us all the experience we'll ever needed to understand games, understand how they work - to find things.. and to pass on that knowledge.
We created our own communities, caves at the very edge of nowhere. Blizzard ignored our kind, they ignored us, even the good ones from the very day we existed.
Of course there is always an exception like R1CH.. But that is a story for another day.
This kind of reminds of the farm hack in WC3. Theres another one to put on the list. It turned you gold mine... into a farm so you coulnd't mine gold. To be brutally honest, it was kind of funny and it happened to me once.
oh my god. i think hes smart enough cause the lousier players might think that they got rolled over by hidden tech or whatever, since hacking to warp in colossus or mothership may be too obvious.
But warping in colossus/mothership? that would be cool, someone should make a map like that.
On September 08 2010 22:19 Yaotzin wrote: bnet has nothing to do with this.
Let's see. Bnet allows ladder games to be played on modified clients.
Looks like a bnet design flaw to me.
Like I said before, it can't be that hard to design the system so that you generate a hash from critical game files and then validate it via bnet. If a single byte is modified, you don't get to play.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
On September 08 2010 22:34 arb wrote: Why would you warp in immortals? couldnt you warp in something like colossus or motherships? or hell even carriers
This is pretty hilarious though
I believe it has something to do with the fact that in some alpha version of the game you were able to warp in immortals. And that a part of that code remains somewhere and he is abusing it.
If it isn't a third party program, and is an exploitation of game mechanics, how is that worthy of a ban? Anyone who has ever used the infestor burrow/cast technique or magic boxing is just exploiting the game's coding. None of those were intended either.
On September 08 2010 23:04 GWash wrote: If it isn't a third party program, and is an exploitation of game mechanics, how is that worthy of a ban? Anyone who has ever used the infestor burrow/cast technique or magic boxing is just exploiting the game's coding. None of those were intended either.
Did you just really compare this to using magic box?
Oh my god... as a programmer/experience with games I feel like I need to puke... This is 10x bigger flaw than any maphack(fog of war hack, that is) I've ever seen. Flaws like this should NEVER in any circumstances happen.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
An interesting exploit. I'd be more worried if it was something the hacker could actually win with. It should be fixed by next patch. I'll just remember the cheat when i play ladder games so i'm not too surprised.
Honestly, if Immortals could be warped in I think they might actually see some use in most games. Even if you made the Warp cooldown super long, so that warping in an immortal meant no reinforcements for a long time, it would still help.
Right now, the only way to viably use Immortals for anything but defense is to use Warp prisms.
On September 08 2010 22:19 Yaotzin wrote: bnet has nothing to do with this.
Let's see. Bnet allows ladder games to be played on modified clients.
Looks like a bnet design flaw to me.
Like I said before, it can't be that hard to design the system so that you generate a hash from critical game files and then validate it via bnet. If a single byte is modified, you don't get to play.
Guys ... think! Seriously! Or at least read the thread ... do you think that the warp in animation was hacked into the client? Why should it show on normal "non-hacked" clients then? And what does this have to do with BNet? All that this hack does, is that it triggers a command coded in the client in order to use a feature that has been there since alpha and just never been removed (maybe because they were pondering whether they should reactivate it some day). This can be very well done at runtime and is most definitely not related at all to Bnet design. Sure, it is sloppy coding, but only on behalf of the client team.
On September 08 2010 23:04 GWash wrote: If it isn't a third party program, and is an exploitation of game mechanics, how is that worthy of a ban? Anyone who has ever used the infestor burrow/cast technique or magic boxing is just exploiting the game's coding. None of those were intended either.
Spreading out your units through an intentional game feature is not abusing the game...'magic boxing' is not an exploit...
On September 08 2010 23:26 shawabawa wrote: This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
Thats BS.
All that needs to be transmitted to the server are the player's actions. The clients will sync the game to the server's version. Server decides what information to send back to client, it really doesn't take much bandwidth to do that even with 200 units.
On September 08 2010 21:42 StatiC)Ex( wrote: A replay, as well as him admitting he hacked isnt hard evidence?
The replay could be map editting, only Blizzard *realistically* knows if it is a ladder game or not.
It's tricky, because if Blizzard bans someone on unjustifiable claims Blizzard could be in a lot of trouble.
It was a ladder game, check out the OP's thread on the SEA bnet forums.
Replay was legit, and the hacker even said he was using old code from an alpha build.
I think Blizzard wants to get a handle on the situation, see how spread out it is, and then fix the solution. It'll probably all get patched in during 1.1
On September 08 2010 23:26 shawabawa wrote: This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
Thats BS.
All that needs to be transmitted to the server are the player's actions. The clients will sync the game to the server's version. Server decides what information to send back to client, it really doesn't take much bandwidth to do that even with 200 units.
Also - HoN has the potential to have that many units on screen with summons and all that. It's actually pretty commmon once you run into push teams.
This hack is kinda funny i have to say and not really dangerous imho. Hacks like these are revealed with ease because u pull stuff that u are not supposed to. Its a fairly obv. hack so using it is quiet stupid (Bnet/Ban). Maphacks on the other side are really hard to spot ... i wish there would be a way to confirm with 100% that someone maphacked.
dont you remember guys the probe-mutalisk hack in BW? that was the most weird hack ever:D a toss could morph eggs mutalish within from a probe:D for free.
or he coulda build a extractor to the ramp, and after the enemy killed his extractor or assimilator or whatever, a gas remained there, blocking the ramp perfectly:D
hackers will be always here, whether its 60$ or not. better antihack is a need.
On September 09 2010 01:02 Breach_hu wrote: dont you remember guys the probe-mutalisk hack in BW? that was the most weird hack ever:D a toss could morph eggs mutalish within from a probe:D for free.
or he coulda build a extractor to the ramp, and after the enemy killed his extractor or assimilator or whatever, a gas remained there, blocking the ramp perfectly:D
hackers will be always here, whether its 60$ or not. better antihack is a need.
Antihack is only needed when there are exploits that not fixable with the current game architecture. In this case, simply remove the old code with do.
It's also fairly obvious it's not done through the map editor if you watch the replay because there is no 'warp in immortal' button which would be visible had you added it to the map editor. It's also possible he changed one of the default buttons to immortal without changing the picture, but then he wouldn't be able to warp in that unit anymore (although they'd probably be willing to do that).
The deeper point is, you have so little faith in yourself in winning legit that you have to cheat. I don't doubt deep down it feels pretty hollow for the abuser as well.
On September 09 2010 04:28 MisterD wrote: In earlier battle reports, one could see warp-ins for immortals. It seems to me, that blizzard added the normal immortal build to the robotics facility and did not remove it from warp gates but simply removed the button one needs to click to use this ability. With this scenario, it becomes extremely easy to write such a hack as one just needs to make a third party application, which hacks into the current network connection, and use some global hotkey to make that third party application to insert the warp-in-immortal-command into the normal network stream. This would simply circumvent the need for a button ingame. But if this was the case (which i am pretty sure it is), i am extreeeeemely confused as to how blizzard could - after having hosted rts ladders for so many years - still make such a noobish mistake. That would be totally ridiculous.
as to lurkers: If any unit has the ability to morph to lurkers and there is, just like for immortal warp-in, simply no button available: In that case, the exact same hack could be used to morph lurkers. But it would still require the according tech-requirements to be present. So you would not only need lurker morph, but also build lurker den to be "insertable" this way. If a tech requirement is not present, the game simulation simply discards the command as it was obviously issued either by a hack or through lag (like you send the command regularly, but when the command arrives at the host, the tech building you need to execute it has already been destroyed). So lurker den would be needed for it to be actually simulated, only sending the command is not needed.
All of this stuff is going to get removed in like two weeks and all of this whining about 'blizzard fucking up' will subside, waiting with bated breath for the next drama to come out of the shadows to whine some more.
And I wish people blind with blizzard fanboy would go back to b-net too. He wasn't being very politic, but he presents a good point, being that this "hack" exploits some pretty basic stuff that should never have been there. A quick look through blizzards game database reveals that a lot of the data is really sloppily done.
Just thought I'd point out that your posting on a Blizzard fansite.
we are posting on a PROGAMING website. if it was just a Blizzard fansite, we would be like bnet forums. we are so much more
On September 09 2010 06:13 Reborn8u wrote: What I want to know is where the warp in animation for immortals came from...?
built into the game. immortals were originals gateway units. they never removed the coding for warping them in. just a matter of hacking to get it to play
The only way this kind of thing is really bad is if Blizzard doesn't squash it in a timely manner and it becomes widespread.
Don't be too hard on the hacker. He's certainly just doing it for the novelty of seeing if he can do it, and maybe a little for how funny it is to imagine the opponent's face when he sees it. In an online game like this, these people are essentially doing Blizzard's QA maintenance work for them at no cost.
Edit: I just watched the video and it's pretty funny how he doesn't even warp them in at a forward pylon away from his warpgates. He's definitely just doing it for the "hey check this out!" factor
On September 09 2010 06:13 Reborn8u wrote: What I want to know is where the warp in animation for immortals came from...?
built into the game. immortals were originals gateway units. they never removed the coding for warping them in. just a matter of hacking to get it to play
ban waves need to come faster. i feel like the first one will come with patch 1.1, which, if blizzard is to be believed, should come in the next 7-10 days. but after that, i think ban waves should come once every two weeks.
they really need to work on anti-hack programs. the hacks that people can get away with are unacceptable. even valve anti-cheat does a better job than whatever blizzard is using.
For YouTube viewers, of course. People who haven't seen this thread yet.
It sounds really fake and you don't need to pretend, it's supposed to surprise them, not you.
It sounds really fake because you are already aware that he knows what is going to happen. Otherwise, a person listening that has never seen the replay or read about it, is more than likely not going to think, "this guy sounds awfully fake...".
He wants it to seem like he is surprised so he does not spoil the audience's reaction when they see it for the first time. He simply made a youtube video for people to watch man, no need to be so controlling and authoriative.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: Please could someone explain me how this can happen? I cannot understand how the praised bnet 2.0 can let this happen.
How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
Blizzard fails with a budget 100 times as big ?
I know this reads like a rant, and it is, but i also would like to know the reasoning.
Does Blizzard want to save money or is there another reason?
I would use google but i have no idea what to search for since i am not educated in server/data transfer/etc...
Because more people TRY to break more popular games. HoN didn't have 3 million people within 1 month of release.
Anyone who makes their hacks public is doing the world a favor, the more grandstanding he does the better. The more awareness there is of a hack, the faster Blizzard will be forced to fix it.
And this is a ridiculously simple "hack" (much like burrowed infestors NP), it is neither a major issue or vulnerability. Simply some cruft left over from an earlier version of the game.
For YouTube viewers, of course. People who haven't seen this thread yet.
It sounds really fake and you don't need to pretend, it's supposed to surprise them, not you.
It sounds really fake because you are already aware that he knows what is going to happen. Otherwise, a person listening that has never seen the replay or read about it, is more than likely not going to think, "this guy sounds awfully fake...".
He wants it to seem like he is surprised so he does not spoil the audience's reaction when they see it for the first time. He simply made a youtube video for people to watch man, no need to be so controlling and authoriative.
imo it would have sounded way more natural if he just said "guys i know something crazy happens in this game but i'm not gonna tell you right now for not spoiling the surprise"
It's because initially immortals were going to be allowed to be warped in.. it was changed, but obviously the code is still there somehow.. so thats why it's immortals only..
Probably already been said but just thought I'd throw it in again.
It's kind of hilarious reading people who think servers come out of thin air and "Because HoN can do it, so can SC!"
On September 09 2010 00:03 juw wrote: Thats BS.
All that needs to be transmitted to the server are the player's actions. The clients will sync the game to the server's version. Server decides what information to send back to client, it really doesn't take much bandwidth to do that even with 200 units.
On September 09 2010 00:21 rewsky wrote: Also - HoN has the potential to have that many units on screen with summons and all that. It's actually pretty commmon once you run into push teams.
You're both wrong (and really most people in here talking about this). I'm going to only go over SC1 1v1, but 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 are basically 2/3/4 times as bad. CPU and memory are more of the limiter than bandwidth.
For example, 200 supply (this can be +/- depending on buildings, overlords, army composition). That has to be done consistently, the server has to be consistently checking 400 units and saying "Ok, Red has vision of X, so he can see Y of Blues units" and then sending it to the client. Scale that up to a few hundred thousand people at least and you start having issues.
HoN only has to check 10 units even if you want to factor in towers and creep, 5 summons for 10 hour. You get maybe 150 units (I'm pretty sure this is a gross overestimation). That's HoNs worse case, SC2s is 1,600 units in 4vs4. 150 vs 1,600 is slightly different.
You also have to include replays, they would need to be saved on Blizzards servers and pulled down at the end of the map instead of being able to do it on the client.
Out of 140,000,000 games, even 0.001% of that would imply 140,000 games were played with hackers, probably an overestimation though. Just to give you an idea, hackers are small portion of the game, and if given a choice between keeping the games running smooth for 99.999% or 0.001%, it's obvious which someone will choose.
To get back to the original subject. Personally, I would rather Blizzard spend time fixing the bug that you can use a spell that's not intended to be used by players, rather than just nuking one spell. The idea that Blizzard should just "comment out a database entry" to fix it is silly.
Which isn't to say Blizzards perfect or they couldn't improve security, but most people don't seem to understand scaling or really security in general.
TLDR: Stop pretending you know what you're talking about and saying that Blizzard can do it because a game with an immeasurable amount of users compared to SC2 can do it.
Here's a fun idea, 46,576,696 games have been played in the US, call it 23,288,348 because everyone played each other. SC2 has been out for (about) 41 days, or 984 hours. 23,000 games are played an hour as a very rough average and the number is higher or lower in real time. It's not like each server only has one or two games playing on it at any one time.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the hacker also managed to salvage an old upgrade to the Immortal which gave it +2 range, seems like a pretty interesting concept to me.
shadow actually you are wrong here. The network really submits only a players actions. All clients in one game use a synchronized random number generator to perform the exact same simulation on all games. Due to this synchronized simulation, out of sync errors like in old starcraft replays or on waaagh!tv (if you ever watched warcraft) could occur: by switching up two player actions, one simulation would totally run out of control, resulting in 90% of all actions being invalid due to the erroneous simulation state, which in turn results in all units just standing around more and more and in the end nothing would move at all and just stand around doing nothing.
the starcraft client/server model is very much different from the model used in counter-strike for instance, where mainly the server decides over hit or miss. You may have noticed really ugly delay when running around in first person mode on a starcraft2 custom map: This is caused by that synchronized model, where every client displays the exact game state. unsynchronized client/server models like for counter-strike rely on the server being the deciding entity and sending world updates and every client displays a slightly different world state, which allows for immediate movement without waiting for synchronization, and thus not experiencing this lag.
On September 09 2010 11:02 MisterD wrote: shadow actually you are wrong here. The network really submits only a players actions. All clients in one game use a synchronized random number generator to perform the exact same simulation on all games. Due to this synchronized simulation, out of sync errors like in old starcraft replays or on waaagh!tv (if you ever watched warcraft) could occur: by switching up two player actions, one simulation would totally run out of control, resulting in 90% of all actions being invalid due to the erroneous simulation state, which in turn results in all units just standing around more and more and in the end nothing would move at all and just stand around doing nothing.
the starcraft client/server model is very much different from the model used in counter-strike for instance, where mainly the server decides over hit or miss. You may have noticed really ugly delay when running around in first person mode on a starcraft2 custom map: This is caused by that synchronized model, where every client displays the exact game state. unsynchronized client/server models like for counter-strike rely on the server being the deciding entity and sending world updates and every client displays a slightly different world state, which allows for immediate movement without waiting for synchronization, and thus not experiencing this lag.
I think you read what I said wrong, or I'm reading what you said wrong.
I'm not saying the server runs the game, I'm saying that if SC2 wanted to stop (for example) a fog of war hack it would have to do unit vision checks on the server instead of the client. Compared to HoN, which I assume does it on the server if fog of war hacks don't work as people claim.
I'm not saying that SC2 is doing anything on the server beyond the basic communiction. Although it is interesting, I didn't realize they synchronized that much onto the client.
It's kind of hilarious reading people who think servers come out of thin air and "Because HoN can do it, so can SC!"
Shadowed, your argument is baseless because you have no idea how server resource usage scales with increasing number of units and games hosted. Where are you getting your memory usage to process information about 10 units vs 1000 units? A unit is represented by a few bytes in memory so I imagine scaling won't be an issue. Not sure how it scales with the number of games hosted but as long as it is not an exponential, it won't be a problem. If you don't know what that means, google it.
Servers are more powerful than you think and (good) developers are not stupid when it comes to optimising their code for large loads.
It's kind of hilarious reading people who think servers come out of thin air and "Because HoN can do it, so can SC!"
Shadowed, your argument is baseless because you have no idea how server resource usage scales with increasing number of units and games hosted. Where are you getting your memory usage to transmit information about 1000 units vs 10 units? A unit is just a few bytes in memory so I imagine scaling won't be an issue. Neither will the number of users / games hosted. These things are VERY scalble.
Servers are more powerful than you think and (good) developers are not stupid when it comes to optimising their code for large volumes.
In any case, no one here will know for sure.
More servers means more money, more maintenance, etc etc. Tossing servers at the issue isn't always going to fix it.
Neither am I talking just about memory, it adds up when you have to do a lot of unit checks here, a few more there. Assuming what MisterD says is accurate, it also means the server has to keep track of the entire game state rather than just passing the data around, which again, more resources to do.
You are wrong. Blizzard can fix this with dedicated servers. That is part of the cost of making a good product and it is great that we have HoN to set an example.
You also don't seem to understand the concept of scaling. As long as it is not expotential, it is not a problem. I suggest you Google it. Just because it needs to do a 1000 extra checks or hold 10000 more objects in memory does not equate to server lag x 1000.
This is getting off topic so I'll just say. Blizzard disagreed with you, since they didn't go with that method. As you admit yourself, nobody knows for sure, but I would say it's a safe bet they actually looked at the pros and cons and didn't just pick the method out of a hat.
On September 09 2010 11:02 MisterD wrote: shadow actually you are wrong here. The network really submits only a players actions. All clients in one game use a synchronized random number generator to perform the exact same simulation on all games. Due to this synchronized simulation, out of sync errors like in old starcraft replays or on waaagh!tv (if you ever watched warcraft) could occur: by switching up two player actions, one simulation would totally run out of control, resulting in 90% of all actions being invalid due to the erroneous simulation state, which in turn results in all units just standing around more and more and in the end nothing would move at all and just stand around doing nothing.
the starcraft client/server model is very much different from the model used in counter-strike for instance, where mainly the server decides over hit or miss. You may have noticed really ugly delay when running around in first person mode on a starcraft2 custom map: This is caused by that synchronized model, where every client displays the exact game state. unsynchronized client/server models like for counter-strike rely on the server being the deciding entity and sending world updates and every client displays a slightly different world state, which allows for immediate movement without waiting for synchronization, and thus not experiencing this lag.
I think you read what I said wrong, or I'm reading what you said wrong.
I'm not saying the server runs the game, I'm saying that if SC2 wanted to stop (for example) a fog of war hack it would have to do unit vision checks on the server instead of the client. Compared to HoN, which I assume does it on the server if fog of war hacks don't work as people claim.
I'm not saying that SC2 is doing anything on the server beyond the basic communiction. Although it is interesting, I didn't realize they synchronized that much onto the client.
shit sorry, i missed that "in order to make maphack impossible" part :<
I was going to write a long, long essay explaining why i think managing the game states is viable for blizzard in regards to CPU and RAM costs, but I've decided to keep it short.
Firslty - CPU speed and RAM is very cheap these days, and its continuing to become more powerful every few months at a crazy rate.
Second - Managing the game may seem like a large amount of work, but it really isn't. It scales linearly for the most part, and managing vision really isn't a huge a mount of work when you consider the grid based setup of the maps - we only need to check buildings/structures outside of cells that have already been "discovered" as visible. Since visibility already displays plenty cells around you, that's a large saving. (What i am saying is you don't need to check all 50 buildings and 100 units per player)
Thirdly- Checking that players aren't using memory edits, code caves, and other types of tom foolery to execute functions like the immortal warp in would be a very simple routine of looking up within a hash table of whether the function is a multiplayer ability or not.
Finally - We have EMULATED wow servers which support 4000+ players online on a single server. There is no denying a wow server is thousands of times more work then running a single ladder game. There is no reason blizzard cannot pull this off for some ladder games.
One thing i want to state about why they haven't done this, is the latency and the nature of the protocol. I believe R1CH or someone else covered this before, but bursting data when you move into enemy territory is not great when there are so many units that will suddenly be discovered and sent, that it probably wouldn't work so well in such a fast paced game like SC2. I do not know much about this topic, so im going to wrap up with that - there probably are solutions to this.
On September 09 2010 11:28 Shadowed wrote: This is getting off topic so I'll just say. Blizzard disagreed with you, since they didn't go with that method. As you admit yourself, nobody knows for sure, but I would say it's a safe bet they actually looked at the pros and cons and didn't just pick the method out of a hat.
They figured that forking out for dedicated servers will not increase their profit margins much. Plus, it is cheaper to reuse warcraft 3 archetecture design + warden and get the product on the market faster. These are valid points from Blizzard management perspective.
It is up to the community to show them that we take the issue seriously especially when HoN has proven it works.
I dont like hackers but this guy isn't a typical hacker.
From what I understood he is part of a "famous" hacking group in the edge of nowhere of internet. After reading his two essays, on SEA forums, this guy is actually interresting. He does reveal, eventhough after being busted, epic failure(s) of the game. I'm not defending him at all, but come on you got to admit he is right, at least, on one point: if blizzard wants StarCraft II to be #1 they'll have to face true problems like him.
Might it be the new way to get hired from blizzard ?
A friend of mine who skilled with GE told me, this hack or something is caused by Blizzard. If you open your GE and load the default setting of Warp Gate, click an command card and see the ability commands, you will find Warp In Immortals. So someone made the hack programs or changed something of the client, and when he click on that button, warp in an Immortal instead of whatever that icon supposed to be, and the command is still legal, because there IS a command for warp-in immortals.
I think we should report this to Blizzard, for whatever the reason or cause, such cheating is unbearable.
Admin, please delete this post if this made trouble. I'm reporting to Blizzard anyway.
For YouTube viewers, of course. People who haven't seen this thread yet.
It sounds really fake and you don't need to pretend, it's supposed to surprise them, not you.
It sounds really fake because you are already aware that he knows what is going to happen. Otherwise, a person listening that has never seen the replay or read about it, is more than likely not going to think, "this guy sounds awfully fake...".
He wants it to seem like he is surprised so he does not spoil the audience's reaction when they see it for the first time. He simply made a youtube video for people to watch man, no need to be so controlling and authoriative.
LOL... controlling and authoriative... Get real. I'm not posting "OMG YOU SUCK AND I'M BETTER THAN YOU", I'm simply telling it how it is. No one with a brain would think he just randomly casted a replay of a hack wth completely unknown players without knowing about the hack. His reacton is also obviously fake, no matter your prior knowledge. The only thing he needs to do in order not to spoil the audience's reaction is to not tell them in advance about the hack, doh. He can even say there's a surprise and it still wouldn't spoil anything.
On September 08 2010 18:33 ReCharge wrote: I think what the "hacker" is trying to say, is he's trying to have fun & forcing blizzard to fix their problems, they hacked so that blizzard will be aware of this & fix it as early as possible.
*weird, I'm actually defending the hacker* xD
this is possibly the worst way to make blizzard aware of their problems...somebody loses 12 points and you lose 60 dollars..nj!
It was more like $80-100 due to games costing more down here, which is a fair amount of money to waste really for most, especially if he forks it out again.
Its gone in game, off my friends list and cannot be added again. I assume the website will be cleaned up at a later stage.
He probably blocked you. I doubt he will get banned any time soon.
Anyway, I quite like his posts on the SEA forum.
Blocking you does not prevent you from adding a person. He did this initially as i stated on the first page. No one can add him either, i spoke to several people about it. Im pretty sure he is banned, as it is the most reasonable explanation..
It would be so cool if a Protoss player would actually warp in Immortals during an offical tournament. The peeps at blizzard would go like 'WTF' and casters would say something like:
'hey, HuK is warping in immortals, is that even possible?' .. 'Yeah, Blizzard made this possible since Alpha' .. 'oh ok.. so HuK warping in 8 more Immortals..."
Since the other thread is closed, I'll post the list of available abilities here:
Can be used with the hack: Warp in Immortals(warpgate, requires twilight council) Immortal Range upgrade(Robo Bay, +2) Burrow upgrade(researchable at the Evolution Chamber) Leech(Infestor, beta version ability) Frenzy(same as above) Peristalsis upgrade(Infestor, +1 burrowed speed) Infestor spells can be cast while burrowed with the exception of Leech. Organic Carapace upgrade(Roach, +10 hp/s regen, while burrowed) Anabolic Synthesis upgrade(Ultralisk, +0.6875 speed)
Can be used, but have no effect: Enduring Corruption upgrade(from alpha version) RazorPlague upgrade(Queen, alpha version ability) Obverse Incubation upgrade(4 zerglings per egg, +50% morph time) Disease upgrade(Infestor, alpha version ability) EMP research(Ghost Academy)
Can't be used: Build Obelisk(the building is missing, but the ability is in the list) Build Merc Compound(same case as above) Abdominal Fortitude(baneling, no effect, not on the baneling nest ability list) Jotun Boosters(viking, +2 range in fighter mode, not on the starport tech lab ability list)
On September 09 2010 16:34 Morphs wrote: It would be so cool if a Protoss player would actually warp in Immortals during an offical tournament. The peeps at blizzard would go like 'WTF' and casters would say something like:
'hey, HuK is warping in immortals, is that even possible?' .. 'Yeah, Blizzard made this possible since Alpha' .. 'oh ok.. so HuK warping in 8 more Immortals..."
lol at the last respons. I can picture Day 9 saying the first and last, and just being all casual, oh, ok, sooo huk warping in 8 more immortals...
On September 09 2010 16:52 lololol wrote: Since the other thread is closed, I'll post the list of available abilities here:
Can be used with the hack: Warp in Immortals(warpgate, requires twilight council) Immortal Range upgrade(Robo Bay, +2) Burrow upgrade(researchable at the Evolution Chamber) Leech(Infestor, beta version ability) Frenzy(same as above) Peristalsis upgrade(Infestor, +1 burrowed speed) Infestor spells can be cast while burrowed with the exception of Leech. Organic Carapace upgrade(Roach, +10 hp/s regen, while burrowed) Anabolic Synthesis upgrade(Ultralisk, +0.6875 speed)
Can be used, but have no effect: Enduring Corruption upgrade(from alpha version) RazorPlague upgrade(Queen, alpha version ability) Obverse Incubation upgrade(4 zerglings per egg, +50% morph time) Disease upgrade(Infestor, alpha version ability) EMP research(Ghost Academy)
Can't be used: Build Obelisk(the building is missing, but the ability is in the list) Build Merc Compound(same case as above) Abdominal Fortitude(baneling, no effect, not on the baneling nest ability list) Jotun Boosters(viking, +2 range in fighter mode, not on the starport tech lab ability list)
Wow, that probably means a lot of smart hackers are getting away with it. I mean, if instead of warping in Immortals he just got the range upgrade, or used frenzy or something I doubt people would notice.
On September 09 2010 16:34 Morphs wrote: It would be so cool if a Protoss player would actually warp in Immortals during an offical tournament. The peeps at blizzard would go like 'WTF' and casters would say something like:
'hey, HuK is warping in immortals, is that even possible?' .. 'Yeah, Blizzard made this possible since Alpha' .. 'oh ok.. so HuK warping in 8 more Immortals..."
I suspect you need third-party software to exploit it. My guess is that you send the server a request of the form WarpInCommandId WarpgateId UnitTypeId WarpinLocation or something equivalent. By finding out the immortal's id you can just modify the unit id part of the request, but doubt that the official SC2 client has that kind of functionality. I guess you may be able to sneak it in embedded in your mouse driver, but it would probably count as a cheat.
Pretty disappointing how bad Blizzard is at securing their game. This kind of exploit is extremely easy to avoid long before it's found by the community. Other exploits like map hacks are hard to prevent without serious impacts on game performance so it's understandable that these kinds of hacks exists.
I dont think blizzard minds >,<" What do u get from hacking anyways , some ladder points? beating few people? And when u get banned u spend 60$ buying another ID?
It's not like such exploits are being used blatantly in tournaments or anything (or at least those that cheat hide it really really well)
I think he got the warp in immortal code from the 2nd mission in the protoss sidestory during the campaign. When you power up the robo fac, an immortal gets warped in. He could have also gotten the auto-ff from the campaign as well. In the mission "Smash and grab", sentries automatically forcefield the ramps when you get too close.
Ugh, so blizzard left the abilities in the multiplayer "mod" but removed them from the UI. GENIUS. All they need to do is remove them in the next patch...
On September 08 2010 18:33 ReCharge wrote: I think what the "hacker" is trying to say, is he's trying to have fun & forcing blizzard to fix their problems, they hacked so that blizzard will be aware of this & fix it as early as possible.
*weird, I'm actually defending the hacker* xD
this is possibly the worst way to make blizzard aware of their problems...somebody loses 12 points and you lose 60 dollars..nj!
In RL, $60.00 isn't that much money.
...
12 starcraft 2 lolladder points is even less money.
If you check the video, it did appear notice that the immortals took full damage from marauder shells. The hardened shield animation played, but the shield loss was significant.
I'm thinking that this exploit is pulling immortal data on its look, but isn't really using the real data. Maybe it's actually being treated in game as a stalker, but has the immortal art work.
On September 09 2010 16:52 lololol wrote: Since the other thread is closed, I'll post the list of available abilities here:
Can be used with the hack: Warp in Immortals(warpgate, requires twilight council) Immortal Range upgrade(Robo Bay, +2) Burrow upgrade(researchable at the Evolution Chamber) Leech(Infestor, beta version ability) Frenzy(same as above) Peristalsis upgrade(Infestor, +1 burrowed speed) Infestor spells can be cast while burrowed with the exception of Leech. Organic Carapace upgrade(Roach, +10 hp/s regen, while burrowed) Anabolic Synthesis upgrade(Ultralisk, +0.6875 speed)
Can be used, but have no effect: Enduring Corruption upgrade(from alpha version) RazorPlague upgrade(Queen, alpha version ability) Obverse Incubation upgrade(4 zerglings per egg, +50% morph time) Disease upgrade(Infestor, alpha version ability) EMP research(Ghost Academy)
Can't be used: Build Obelisk(the building is missing, but the ability is in the list) Build Merc Compound(same case as above) Abdominal Fortitude(baneling, no effect, not on the baneling nest ability list) Jotun Boosters(viking, +2 range in fighter mode, not on the starport tech lab ability list)
those are all the changes we didnt know in patch 1.1 calling it
gosuguy wru?! please demonstrate more of that ability list please
Would be hilarious to see how fast Ultras are after getting the removed speed upgrade (since they buffed their speed to compensate removal of that research iirc)
People who use non-obvious hacks like map-hack or minerals hack are tools. People who are like "Ima warp immortals into your base" are baller and deserve medals for being great.
On September 10 2010 06:51 Tump wrote: gosuguy wru?! please demonstrate more of that ability list please
Would be hilarious to see how fast Ultras are after getting the removed speed upgrade (since they buffed their speed to compensate removal of that research iirc)
That would be frikin hilarious - Ultra's like twice as fast?! lmao
On September 10 2010 06:52 ToxNub wrote: This guy is awesome.
People who use non-obvious hacks like map-hack or minerals hack are tools. People who are like "Ima warp immortals into your base" are baller and deserve medals for being great.
As much as i would love to be able to actually have more than 1 immortal out before marauders attack move into my base and kill me game after game, i secretly want to set hackers lawns on fire as they sleep for completely ruining everything they touch year after year after year due to their inability to do anything correctly or use an actual skill.
On September 10 2010 09:37 opticalza wrote: Blizzard decided to remove my thread from the forums for some reason. Guess they don't want people knowing about these types of hacks?
Yeah because blizzard forums are a mass of 12 year olds who will probably go download it if they see it, most aren't a bunch of diamond players who can win without hacks..
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
if I knew how to do this, I would totally do it every game, just because it's hilarious. Oh man, if you could warp in every unit? 4gate mothership rush
On September 10 2010 18:19 ReadySteady wrote: This is just sad to see how they use hacks. The people who are using these hacks are really stupid or having too much money in their wallet...
I see a lot of comments about hackers losing money doing this, but in reality most of the hacking, for example in WoW, is done with stolen accounts. Now that all your blizzard games can be tied to the same account they can just go have some hack-assisted sc2 games for the lulz after clearing WoW chars.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes and no.
If you are transferring the full information of units when they exit the fog (ie only storing the *existence* of units which the player can see) then you need to send a massive amount of information per unit and thus a large army would certainly lag it. If you are only transferring partial data (say, coordinates) you're right that it's relatively small (I'm guessing they use floats for position so say 8 bytes per unit, maybe 12 depending on how they handle height), but then you run into a number of problems:
1) You can still make a hack that is the equivalent of the "Units" tab, which is half the point of maphack anyways. Sure, you can't intercept their Mutalisks at every opportunity (or something similar), but you still are getting a massive amount of information about what they are doing. Even worse, this is much harder to notice in a replay, so you can think of the "better" but more obvious hacks as a means to catch cheaters, if you will.
2) This yields a lot of problems about how to calculate damage with splash. For example, let's say it's TvT and we have a setup that looks like this (m=marauder, |=cliff, v=viking, s=tank, -=ground):
mm|--------vs
The player with the tank and viking will see this:
-m|--------vs
Their tank shoots, and on their computer it damages one marauder (the other marauder's coordinates are unknown!) but on the other computer both marauders are damaged. As a result you basically have to run the entire game server-side (for this and similar issues), by which point you are once again transmitting massive amounts of data to handle large armies.
There's probably more stuff that isn't coming to mind as well.
The server doesn't need to know the current game state to prevent this hack. It does need to know the rules of the mod and do some basic validation on every command sent by the client. "use action 'warp in immortal' on selected warp gate" would fail that check.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes and no.
If you are transferring the full information of units when they exit the fog (ie only storing the *existence* of units which the player can see) then you need to send a massive amount of information per unit and thus a large army would certainly lag it. If you are only transferring partial data (say, coordinates) you're right that it's relatively small (I'm guessing they use floats for position so say 8 bytes per unit, maybe 12 depending on how they handle height), but then you run into a number of problems:
1) You can still make a hack that is the equivalent of the "Units" tab, which is half the point of maphack anyways. Sure, you can't intercept their Mutalisks at every opportunity (or something similar), but you still are getting a massive amount of information about what they are doing. Even worse, this is much harder to notice in a replay, so you can think of the "better" but more obvious hacks as a means to catch cheaters, if you will.
2) This yields a lot of problems about how to calculate damage with splash. For example, let's say it's TvT and we have a setup that looks like this (m=marauder, |=cliff, v=viking, s=tank, -=ground):
mm|--------vs
The player with the tank and viking will see this:
-m|--------vs
Their tank shoots, and on their computer it damages one marauder (the other marauder's coordinates are unknown!) but on the other computer both marauders are damaged. As a result you basically have to run the entire game server-side (for this and similar issues), by which point you are once again transmitting massive amounts of data to handle large armies.
There's probably more stuff that isn't coming to mind as well.
Do You know ANYTHING about game programming or programming in general, or networking for that matter? you just theorize with your imaginary numbers.
This makes you look both extremely ignorant, and just voids all your future arguments.
I'm not even going to try to explain how it really works because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes and no.
If you are transferring the full information of units when they exit the fog (ie only storing the *existence* of units which the player can see) then you need to send a massive amount of information per unit and thus a large army would certainly lag it. If you are only transferring partial data (say, coordinates) you're right that it's relatively small (I'm guessing they use floats for position so say 8 bytes per unit, maybe 12 depending on how they handle height), but then you run into a number of problems:
1) You can still make a hack that is the equivalent of the "Units" tab, which is half the point of maphack anyways. Sure, you can't intercept their Mutalisks at every opportunity (or something similar), but you still are getting a massive amount of information about what they are doing. Even worse, this is much harder to notice in a replay, so you can think of the "better" but more obvious hacks as a means to catch cheaters, if you will.
2) This yields a lot of problems about how to calculate damage with splash. For example, let's say it's TvT and we have a setup that looks like this (m=marauder, |=cliff, v=viking, s=tank, -=ground):
mm|--------vs
The player with the tank and viking will see this:
-m|--------vs
Their tank shoots, and on their computer it damages one marauder (the other marauder's coordinates are unknown!) but on the other computer both marauders are damaged. As a result you basically have to run the entire game server-side (for this and similar issues), by which point you are once again transmitting massive amounts of data to handle large armies.
There's probably more stuff that isn't coming to mind as well.
Do You know ANYTHING about game programming or programming in general, or networking for that matter? you just theorize with your imaginary numbers.
This makes you look both extremely ignorant, and just voids all your future arguments.
I'm not even going to try to explain how it really works because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
Thanks for your constructive reply; you've certainly enlightened me on the flaws with my argument with your irrefutable logic.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes and no.
If you are transferring the full information of units when they exit the fog (ie only storing the *existence* of units which the player can see) then you need to send a massive amount of information per unit and thus a large army would certainly lag it. If you are only transferring partial data (say, coordinates) you're right that it's relatively small (I'm guessing they use floats for position so say 8 bytes per unit, maybe 12 depending on how they handle height), but then you run into a number of problems:
1) You can still make a hack that is the equivalent of the "Units" tab, which is half the point of maphack anyways. Sure, you can't intercept their Mutalisks at every opportunity (or something similar), but you still are getting a massive amount of information about what they are doing. Even worse, this is much harder to notice in a replay, so you can think of the "better" but more obvious hacks as a means to catch cheaters, if you will.
2) This yields a lot of problems about how to calculate damage with splash. For example, let's say it's TvT and we have a setup that looks like this (m=marauder, |=cliff, v=viking, s=tank, -=ground):
mm|--------vs
The player with the tank and viking will see this:
-m|--------vs
Their tank shoots, and on their computer it damages one marauder (the other marauder's coordinates are unknown!) but on the other computer both marauders are damaged. As a result you basically have to run the entire game server-side (for this and similar issues), by which point you are once again transmitting massive amounts of data to handle large armies.
There's probably more stuff that isn't coming to mind as well.
Do You know ANYTHING about game programming or programming in general, or networking for that matter? you just theorize with your imaginary numbers.
This makes you look both extremely ignorant, and just voids all your future arguments.
I'm not even going to try to explain how it really works because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
Thanks for your constructive reply; you've certainly enlightened me on the flaws with my argument with your irrefutable logic.
Np man, next time you want to spew out random information you made up, go to battle.net.
On September 08 2010 22:03 Teejing wrote: How can S2 create Hon, a game run on servers and 100% cheat/latency free while
You haven't heard of map hacks?
Also, this will surely be fixed in a matter of days.
You can't use maphacks in HoN because all of the data is server side. The server only sends what information is necessary to the client, thus preventing the hack in the first place.
This isn't feasible for SC2 though. In HoN how many new units can enter the screen at once? like 5?
What happens if you scan a 200/200 zerg army in SC2 with that system in place? Like 10 seconds of lag as all the data gets transferred.
Even stuff like zergling run-by's would cause huge lag.
lol, 200 units are barely some byte, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes and no.
If you are transferring the full information of units when they exit the fog (ie only storing the *existence* of units which the player can see) then you need to send a massive amount of information per unit and thus a large army would certainly lag it. If you are only transferring partial data (say, coordinates) you're right that it's relatively small (I'm guessing they use floats for position so say 8 bytes per unit, maybe 12 depending on how they handle height), but then you run into a number of problems:
1) You can still make a hack that is the equivalent of the "Units" tab, which is half the point of maphack anyways. Sure, you can't intercept their Mutalisks at every opportunity (or something similar), but you still are getting a massive amount of information about what they are doing. Even worse, this is much harder to notice in a replay, so you can think of the "better" but more obvious hacks as a means to catch cheaters, if you will.
2) This yields a lot of problems about how to calculate damage with splash. For example, let's say it's TvT and we have a setup that looks like this (m=marauder, |=cliff, v=viking, s=tank, -=ground):
mm|--------vs
The player with the tank and viking will see this:
-m|--------vs
Their tank shoots, and on their computer it damages one marauder (the other marauder's coordinates are unknown!) but on the other computer both marauders are damaged. As a result you basically have to run the entire game server-side (for this and similar issues), by which point you are once again transmitting massive amounts of data to handle large armies.
There's probably more stuff that isn't coming to mind as well.
Do You know ANYTHING about game programming or programming in general, or networking for that matter? you just theorize with your imaginary numbers.
This makes you look both extremely ignorant, and just voids all your future arguments.
I'm not even going to try to explain how it really works because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
Thanks for your constructive reply; you've certainly enlightened me on the flaws with my argument with your irrefutable logic.
Np man, next time you want to spew out random information you made up, go to battle.net.
I'm a programmer.
Pewt's second point is completely retarded. I'm 99% sure that HoN and other server-sided RTS engines (uhm... if any?) is going to start sending out data about units once they are NEAR the end of fog of war, to try to limit the lag as much as possible.
Also the point is completely flawed because of the point of that if the units positions is stored.. .then the server logic would probably take handle of the units health too, even if you pointed out it wouldn't.
Hmm.. but to defend Pewt. Your (Snowfield) post is completely retarded too. The way HoN works is by dedicated servers. Battle.net does not really use that. And it would cost a ridiculous amount of money to support the 1000000 daily users on bnet servers.
On September 12 2010 09:35 cocosoft wrote:I'm 99% sure that HoN and other server-sided RTS engines (uhm... if any?) is going to start sending out data about units once they are NEAR the end of fog of war, to try to limit the lag as much as possible.
You're absolutely right and I'm not sure why this didn't occur to me at the time; I guess I was taking the other poster's interpretations too literally. And yes, it would try to smooth out the lag, naturally, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be transferring a ton of data in a relatively short time, and keeping any fog of war information stored keeps some sort of maphack available. I'm not saying that this lag would be the be-all and end-all of everything, but people with iffy connections can have issues even as it stands.
(You also have an issue with units like Sensor Towers, who would need special case coding (send that there is a unit there but not what it was) which might be inconvenient due to the editor's design specifically attempting to avoid special cases everywhere)
On September 12 2010 09:35 cocosoft wrote:Also the point is completely flawed because of the point of that if the units positions is stored.. .then the server logic would probably take handle of the units health too, even if you pointed out it wouldn't.
I didn't say that it would be impossible to circumvent this problem; I specifically said that it would simply require more server involvement in running the game, and as a result require the game to transfer a lot more information than just unit positions when units came in/out of "existence" relative to a player.
Pewt, please stop pretending you understand the slightest thing about
a) How unit objects are stored in memory and transferred across the network b) How this scales up with more units, more players, more games
Programmers are not stupid, a lot of work goes into optimising these things possibly using techniques like hashing, indexing, message compression, rollbacks, server / client side prediction, etc.
Blizzard is just too lazy because it is much easier to reuse the warcraft 3 code base.
On September 12 2010 11:08 juw wrote: Pewt, please stop pretending you understand the slightest thing about
a) How unit objects are stored in memory and transferred across the network b) How this scales up with more units, more players, more games
Programmers are not stupid, a lot of work goes into optimising these things possibly using techniques like hashing, indexing, message compression, rollbacks, server / client side prediction, etc.
Blizzard is just too lazy because it is much easier to reuse the warcraft 3 code base.
That's not being lazy. That's being efficient. If I had a large code base from an older game, I'd sure as hell reuse it in my new game. If they DIDN'T use it, they're wasting resources and delaying a game 12 years in the making.
On September 14 2010 19:13 Alejandrisha wrote: Some one used this in a game I played recently. Is this bannable? What should I do if I encounter some one who uses this?
Yes it's bannable. After the game click on their name and press "Report Player". If you're really concerned you can email hacks@blizzard.com
On September 14 2010 19:13 Alejandrisha wrote: Some one used this in a game I played recently. Is this bannable? What should I do if I encounter some one who uses this?
Yes it's bannable. After the game click on their name and press "Report Player". If you're really concerned you can email hacks@blizzard.com
On September 12 2010 11:08 juw wrote: Pewt, please stop pretending you understand the slightest thing about
a) How unit objects are stored in memory and transferred across the network b) How this scales up with more units, more players, more games
Programmers are not stupid, a lot of work goes into optimising these things possibly using techniques like hashing, indexing, message compression, rollbacks, server / client side prediction, etc.
Blizzard is just too lazy because it is much easier to reuse the warcraft 3 code base.
Juw, please stop hammering some guy's technical theorycrafting based on nothing but "programmers are clever, Blizzard is lazy".
What he said pretty much holds together. If both players didn't have info on where all units are in advance, yes you'd need to pull their stats when you did a scan. Yes, that would be a pretty small amount of data, however you also want it in a very short time so relatively speaking it's quite big.
How would it scale with more units/players/games? Linearly. How else? Any cost you've got server-side for doing something for one game is going to cost roughly twice as much for two. In terms of simulation maybe you'd get some economies of scale if you ran all (X Process) for all objects all games simultaneously, but your networking stuff can't really benefit from that.
Data compression? Only goes so far. In the end you want to losslessly compress a pile of stuff in a format that will decompress fast (and probably only lose partial data if a packet goes missing).
Client-side prediction and rollbacks, client-side prediction? In an RTS? Really? Maybe I'm about to have a pile of examples dropped on my head of games that have used it beautifully, but what I'm picturing is fleets of units all suddenly snapping to some new course due to a rolled-back order, just after you dropped a storm.
But yeah, you're right, hashing and indexing everything will make everything work just swell.
Based on the way replays work (a replay is quite a small file, and to get to the end of it you have to play from the beginning, you are never allowed to fast forward past your "play" point) I'd guess that both replays and Battle.net work the same way: they are using the commands issued by the players and executing the rules of the game locally.
The game is a kind of simulation. It starts at a known point and uses known rules (no randomness) to figure out what happens next. The inputs to the simulation are the player actions -- move camera, select units, click here, build a unit, etc.
I expect Battle.net is transmitting these actions synchronously to all the players and spectators. Every local simulation of the game state is in lock-step with every other (maybe there's some lag resolution smarts, but if someone lags you have to wait for them to catch up before the server lets you continue).
In this way, every player's computer knows where everything is on the map at all times. Units emerging from a fog of war don't take extra network bandwidth -- all that was transmitted was the player's click to move them out of the fog. This is why the Warden needs to be present on player's machines -- all of the game data is in memory, so if you can hack it, you can see everything on the map.
Here's a replay of Morrow vs TLO in the Cologne IEM quarter finals. Top-tier players going at 200 APM, and it's a 13 minute game. The replay is only 76 KB. Let's assume replays are compressed at 4:1. That works out to 400 bytes per second for two players. In today's internet that's absolutely tiny bandwidth.
So my totally unsubstantiated theory is that the clients transmit their gamer's actions, all clients have a full picture of what's going on, and the hack here is that one of the clients decided it was okay to build Immortals from a warpgate. The other client didn't verify that this action was "in the rules" which is why its simulation (and everyone's replayed sim) includes the Immortals warping in.
Blizz doesn't run a full server-side simulation of the game, they verify all clients respect the rules with Warden. They might add stuff to clients to check some of these basic rules over time, so someone hacking causes an automatic detection, but they might also just stick with Warden to catch known hacks and player reporting to find hackers.
On September 14 2010 21:34 Msqrd wrote: So my totally unsubstantiated theory is that the clients transmit their gamer's actions, all clients have a full picture of what's going on, and the hack here is that one of the clients decided it was okay to build Immortals from a warpgate. The other client didn't verify that this action was "in the rules" which is why its simulation (and everyone's replayed sim) includes the Immortals warping in.
Blizz doesn't run a full server-side simulation of the game, they verify all clients respect the rules with Warden. They might add stuff to clients to check some of these basic rules over time, so someone hacking causes an automatic detection, but they might also just stick with Warden to catch known hacks and player reporting to find hackers.
Is this normally how RTS games are designed? I only have experience coding and studying net code from other types of online games (mainly MMORPG) and letting the client verify these types of actions seems insane. However, I can imagine that it'd be impractical to verify everything because of the large amount of actions required in an RTS. If everything is verified locally, hackers must feel like they are in paradise.
I agree it is interesting, and exposes some laziness on the part of blizzard in terms of really removing (and not just hiding) things that were removed from earlier versions of the game.
The fact that the game doesn't desync when the cheater issues the command means that the command was accepted as valid by the non-hacked client. The only unit you can do this with is the immortal and that is because the specific 'warp in immortal' command exists in the game already. It is just normally hidden from the UI. As soon as blizz removes the command completely from the multiplayer side of the game it will not be possible anymore.
I just double checked, in AbilData.xml in the archive sc2\mods\liberty.sc2mod\base.sc2data, immortal is indeed listed as one of the items under the "WarpGateTrain" node in the data file. Why blizzard didn't remove it and instead chose to hide the button... *shrug*
On September 08 2010 12:15 opticalza wrote: So i watched the replay, and lo and behold, after he turned his gateways into warpgates he started warping in immortals.. yes, thats right, immortals. All without even having a robotics facility... Ridiculous?
At least whoever wrote the hack had a sense of humor.
On September 08 2010 12:15 opticalza wrote: So i watched the replay, and lo and behold, after he turned his gateways into warpgates he started warping in immortals.. yes, thats right, immortals. All without even having a robotics facility... Ridiculous?
At least whoever wrote the hack had a sense of humor.
On September 08 2010 12:15 opticalza wrote: So i watched the replay, and lo and behold, after he turned his gateways into warpgates he started warping in immortals.. yes, thats right, immortals. All without even having a robotics facility... Ridiculous?
At least whoever wrote the hack had a sense of humor.
It's not like he had a choice of units he could warp in. Immortals are the only unit you can get from warp gates without needing the special tech. It's because Blizzard didn't take out the ability to warp-in immortals from the game (which was a pre-beta feature)
Other things blizzard kept in were ultralisk speed upgrade, infestor's burrowed movement speed upgrade, roach burrow regeneration upgrade, burrowed casting of neural parasite and fungal growth, researching burrow at evolution chamber, casting frenzy on infestor (I thin), and I don't really remember the terran or protoss ones (but probably not as many).
On September 15 2010 17:23 Mr_Kzimir wrote: Teleporting photon canons ?
Photon Cannons used to be called Phase Cannons way way back in 2008 or 2009 when Blizz first released information about SC2. They were able to move like units but they must remain in a Psi field.
It's not a hack, but it's more of a glitch. It's a user-performed glitch, but it requires no code injection.
The server accepts a warped immortal because it's in the code for both clients. The only difference is that one client can activate it. It seems that visible buttons and card commands are not checked to make sure they they can actually be used. Shame.
Imagine two identical houses. Some doors inside the house has a lock (ex: warp immortal). The hacker simply unlocks the door (by making the button visible) and is allowed inside the room, but the room itself is unchanged (any stat changes, etc.), so he is not disconnected.
But in all seriousness, Blizzard got lazy and just dummied out previous units/abilities (leaving them in the game but still in the code, just "inaccessible"), and figuring out the code to access these dummied items is all it takes. It's in the code, so game memory isn't being changed, and blizzard's shitty hack detectors (if they exist) won't pick it up, and both players' clients will allow it to happen. Immortal warping isn't the only exploit. Everything that people have mentioned in the thread that exists in the code can be accessed, it's just that most of them have no effect/are not as imba as immortal warp + range (yes he upgrades IMMORTAL range). Probably the best (and only) solution would be for blizzard to completely wipe this data from the game. And even then maphacks and that sentry autocast will still be an issue.
And you guys should stop being apologists for Activision Blizzard. They fucked up. And guess what? They won't acknowledge it. Pretty much every thread about hacks (including the one where the hacker exposes himself) is deleted, and is Blizzard's way of pulling wool over our eyes and hiding the problem under the rug. They haven't fixed this exploit. They simply banned one player who figured it out, and there still is no detection for other potential hackers.
Why did you necro this? Blizzard explicitly mentioned that they fixed this in the 1.1 patch notes. Please be more knowledgeable if you seek to start a discussion about older topics.
It's the Zeratul mission where you go to that archive planet and there's the hybrid that keeps respawning and attacking you. There's an unpowered robo just outside your main and when you make a pylon next to it, an immortal appears. Don't know why the warp in animation was used there, but it was.
It's the Zeratul mission where you go to that archive planet and there's the hybrid that keeps respawning and attacking you. There's an unpowered robo just outside your main and when you make a pylon next to it, an immortal appears. Don't know why the warp in animation was used there, but it was.
In the early stages of the game (alpha or so) the Immortal was a Warpgate unit. You can see that in an old demo video.
:O I don't get it... why you are so impatetion game is version 1.1... This bug is pretty normal to have... BW had alot worse bugs than this... Do you remember the morph anything to lurker? canceling resulting to mutas... so it was free mutas without cooldown then with mutas you could morph anything to guardian etc. Yes it's BM to exploit it in ladder games but people should not get banned for it,warned once twice then temp ban. Blizzard should fix the bug asap.
On September 23 2010 09:45 GWash wrote: Why did you necro this? Blizzard explicitly mentioned that they fixed this in the 1.1 patch notes. Please be more knowledgeable if you seek to start a discussion about older topics.
Mods can close this.
Will you please show me where Blizzard explicitly mentioned this in the patch notes? From what I could see, they mentioned it ambiguously at best.
Please be more knowledgeable about the diction you are using before you try and start using random words in your dictation to others.
Now, on topic, I would assume this bug is fixed because it's a major bug and Blizzard definitely knows about it. However, it's hard to know because we can't just go and test it since the method of performing it was not widely known.
On September 23 2010 18:39 Askesis wrote: Please be more knowledgeable about the diction you are using before you try and start using random words in your dictation to others.
People that criticize others always seem to do exactly what they're complaining about.
On September 23 2010 09:45 GWash wrote: Why did you necro this? Blizzard explicitly mentioned that they fixed this in the 1.1 patch notes. Please be more knowledgeable if you seek to start a discussion about older topics. Mods can close this.
Will you please show me where Blizzard explicitly mentioned this in the patch notes? From what I could see, they mentioned it ambiguously at best. ... the method of performing it was not widely known.
The EXACT method THAT WAS USED was not widely known, but the exploit itself, and how it can be done was extremely widely known. The issue was not just with warping in immortals, but casting NP/FG while burrowed, researching ulralisk speed, researching infestor burrowed speed, researching roach burrow regeneration, researching burrow at evolution chamber, casting frenzy, casting phase shift, and some other things.
All those abilities weren't removed from the unit's ability list (the unit being the production/research building in many cases). The only thing they did was remove the buttons to use the abilities. This is very different than disallowing the ability to be used at all.
Fixed an issue that, in certain cases, allowed a command to be issued that did not appear on the command card
That is the patch note that fixed the problem. It's worded somewhat incorrectly though, since non-command card abilities can still be cast (for instance in custom games), it's just they removed the abilities from the units all together.
And as I said, it has nothing to do with internal testing nor the programming team or w/e. This isn't OMG OBSCURE UNFORSEEABLE BUG, I'm surprised this isn't happening more frequently with the way SC2 gameplay databases are set up (very sloppily).
I can give you a lot of examples with really stupid setups. Basically because I've been working with the editor a lot recently :/.
I love reading comments by people so arrogant they think they can run a billion dollar company or develop multi-million dollar games better than those doing it now. But I believe him, because he's been working with the map editor a lot recently.
And as I said, it has nothing to do with internal testing nor the programming team or w/e. This isn't OMG OBSCURE UNFORSEEABLE BUG, I'm surprised this isn't happening more frequently with the way SC2 gameplay databases are set up (very sloppily).
I can give you a lot of examples with really stupid setups. Basically because I've been working with the editor a lot recently :/.
I love reading comments by people so arrogant they think they can run a billion dollar company or develop multi-million dollar games better than those doing it now. But I believe him, because he's been working with the map editor a lot recently.
dude, that's no reason to bump a 10 day stale thread.
Edit: oh that's your first post... why did i respond :c
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