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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 208

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
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dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
November 10 2010 09:12 GMT
#4141
ROFLMAO.

JP: "What do you think of FoxeR?"
Nony: "Marines."
JP: "Alright, what do you think of NesTea?"
Nony: "Better than Kyrix."
JP: "So you think FoxeR will win?"
Nony: "No, NesTea will."
JP: "Why?"
Nony: "Because he'll build an infestor."
fauxreal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States67 Posts
November 10 2010 09:13 GMT
#4142
LiveOn3 was awesome and I thought it was a free fun show, I don't think being completely professional was necessary. People seriously do need to chill out and stop being so anal, they were letting loose after a long tiring weekend. You guys don't need to explain yourself, but apparently you do lol
Pekkz
Profile Joined June 2009
Norway1505 Posts
November 10 2010 09:15 GMT
#4143
Way too much time on discussing the extended series.... So much to talk about, get on with it!
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 09:23:17
November 10 2010 09:22 GMT
#4144
OK seriously I demand the chat logs from this, good god.
Like a G6
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
November 10 2010 09:23 GMT
#4145
On November 10 2010 18:06 SmoKim wrote:
for reference about Sen's "complain video" i think you guys are taking it too seriously



Ya I think he is joking
dj_lil_sloan
Profile Joined September 2010
20 Posts
November 10 2010 09:29 GMT
#4146
Just wanted to say - I just realized how much I look forward to these podcasts. <3
Monzterg
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden257 Posts
November 10 2010 09:31 GMT
#4147
Regarding the tournament theory.

I agree somewhat with Taylor but I think there is a point missing.

I dont think a tournament bracket is supposed to create a ranking. If you want to create a ranking and really bring forth the best player over time you HAVE to run a series/league!

When you run a tournament, its about excitement and the MOMENT. Its about ceasing the moment and bringing excitement and tention to an audiance.


So when you get to a point in a tournament, its about that moment and who you are outside of that moment and what has happend earlier should be insignificant. The only thing that should matter is this moment right now and then its about ceasing this moment. Thats a tournament.

Taylor's way of thinking would be more fair and correct in theory if you're trying to determine who's been better during the time of the tournament. But then again what's the tournament all about? I dont agree with Taylor in that it should be a way of as fairly as possible determine who's better then who.

When you're at the finals I want it to be about who can do better IN THE FINALS because the finals is different from the quarterfinals.
Also a Tournament can never be fair because you're geting to play 1 out of 16 players in the round of 16 and the eight moving on will be very dependant on who's playing who and will be very different if you swich the matches around.
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 09:40:05
November 10 2010 09:38 GMT
#4148
I think the point tyler is trying to make is that tourneys have a limited amount of games and time they can be executed in, double elim is the best format they can come up with for a weekend tourney... extended series is a modification to double elimination that creates more accurate results for who should advance if 2 players meet more than once in a tourney....

And yes the tourney tries to determine the best player within it's time constraints and format.

If they had all the time in the world you would be doing round robins and such.

Because the tourney tries to determine the best player, extended series helps to achieve that goal (within the timeframe of a weekend) so it is superior to determining which player should advance.

Bo7 is always more accurate than 2 bo3s.

Idra and incontrol are pretty silly to me for trying to claim that tournaments aren't attempting to find the best player out of the pool, because that is what they do try to do.

It's just that within certain time constraints you can only do so much to get the accuracy as best as possible.
True skill comes without effort.
Monzterg
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden257 Posts
November 10 2010 09:47 GMT
#4149
Yeah but the point is not to determine who's a favorite between player A and B but rather who's gonna be comming out on top of a field. So player A can be a underdog to player B, But he can be a favorite over 90% of the field while player B is only a favorite over 75% of the field so making it as fair as possible between player A and B isnt necessairly optimal either.

Also in a tournament format it should be about ceasing the moment. Its the moment that is exciting in a tournament and the Semifinals or Finals is a different moment from the round of 32 so.

I think extended series is not that good because it has the incorrect focus. If you end up playing a player twice and you're going 2-0, 1-2 and you're eliminated from the lower bracket beeing 3-2 to that player overall then you have to justify that by saying to yourself that your opponent was able to bring out a win in the more important moment THIS TIME.


Cheering for Tyler as always because he's chilling just like me
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
November 10 2010 09:55 GMT
#4150
LOL "it has a mile long penis and shoots flaming arrows"
the courage to be a lazy bum
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 09:58:25
November 10 2010 09:56 GMT
#4151
On November 10 2010 18:47 Monzterg wrote:
Yeah but the point is not to determine who's a favorite between player A and B but rather who's gonna be comming out on top of a field. So player A can be a underdog to player B, But he can be a favorite over 90% of the field while player B is only a favorite over 75% of the field so making it as fair as possible between player A and B isnt necessairly optimal either.

Also in a tournament format it should be about ceasing the moment. Its the moment that is exciting in a tournament and the Semifinals or Finals is a different moment from the round of 32 so.

I think extended series is not that good because it has the incorrect focus. If you end up playing a player twice and you're going 2-0, 1-2 and you're eliminated from the lower bracket beeing 3-2 to that player overall then you have to justify that by saying to yourself that your opponent was able to bring out a win in the more important moment THIS TIME.


Cheering for Tyler as always because he's chilling just like me


But if you want to determine who is coming out on top of the field without round robin play you have to go on the loose basis of the bracket results. That's why you deem who is first place and so on.

If player A beats player B and sends him down to the lower bracket. Then loses to player C, technically because it is not round robin where B has played C, you would determine A is better, because he lost to someone that got further in the upper bracket than player B did. Now obviously that might not be the case, but as I said before the tournament determines the best player per matchup as best it can with it's time constraints and format.

The only way to truly know how someone will fare against the rest of the field is through round robin play, which isn't practical for a weekend event with 128 players. So you gotta go with what you got.

Incontrol tries to argue that each round is isolated, but it isn't. If you meet someone you've already played recently in the tournament, you have fresh data on them, which they also have on you, but that makes it not so isolated and 1 dimensional. A best of 7 is the best way to determine between 2 players which one is better of them in head to head. Double elimination doesn't always do that as you can go 3-2 vs someone and still get elim'd with them moving on. In the end extended series isn't unfair, because every player knows the rules going in, and if they lose 2-0 in the upper and are at a severe disadvantage when they meet that player in the lower bracket, it is their fault because they lost so badly. At worst it ends as if they had played a bo7, and the best player between the two advances.
True skill comes without effort.
ScarletKnight
Profile Joined August 2010
United States691 Posts
November 10 2010 09:58 GMT
#4152
You guys really need to publish the chat logs. Like seriously. I wish I knew what was so funny.
Looks like I picked the wrong week the quit sniffing glue
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
November 10 2010 09:59 GMT
#4153
I'm with iNcontroL/Day9/IdrA/(and half of Tyler, apparently, since he is undecided and was just playing devil's advocate).

It adds too much luck into the brackets when you MAY play that player again and have a HUGE disadvantage versus him.

The way Tyler is looking at it is wrong - when you add Extended Series, it isn't double elimination any more in the truest sense.

Example:
Player A plays Player B and loses one of his two "lives".
Player B then goes on to lose a "life" to Player C, while Player A is beating some noobs/pros to keep his last "life".
Player A then beats Player B in a new series, and takes away his last life.

You have to look at it not from an "Am I better than this player perspective?" because that isn't accounting for the rest of the tournament! Like IdrA said, he lost to somebody else, and then lost to you, so he lost twice, while you only lost once, so you should advance.
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:07:44
November 10 2010 10:06 GMT
#4154
On November 10 2010 18:56 robertdinh wrote:
Incontrol tries to argue that each round is isolated, but it isn't. If you meet someone you've already played recently in the tournament, you have fresh data on them, which they also have on you, but that makes it not so isolated and 1 dimensional. A best of 7 is the best way to determine between 2 players which one is better of them in head to head. Double elimination doesn't always do that as you can go 3-2 vs someone and still get elim'd with them moving on. *snip* if they lose 2-0 in the upper and are at a severe disadvantage when they meet that player in the lower bracket, it is their fault because they lost so badly. At worst it ends as if they had played a bo7, and the best player between the two advances.


You're making the same mistake Tyler is (and iNcontroL did too, ironically, but on the opposite end of the argument). The rounds are not isolated, correct.

You have to look at the whole tournament. If I beat you once, and then I lose to Player C, we have both lost ONCE. Then, if you beat me (in a fresh series) and our overall record is 2-3 in my favor, I have no right to complain because I lost TWICE.

If I sit there and go "herp derp, I was 2-3!!!", I could probably get pissed off, but then I'd stop and think and be like gee... maybe it is because I lost twice, once to you, and once to Player C. You never lost against another other player, so you are the better player OVERALL out of the two of us and deserve to advance.

On November 10 2010 18:56 robertdinh wrote:In the end extended series isn't unfair, because every player knows the rules going in, and


This is just flat out silly.

New rule: Every player can't build Tier 1 units. Because every player knows it going it, it is fair.
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:13:09
November 10 2010 10:08 GMT
#4155
On November 10 2010 19:06 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 18:56 robertdinh wrote:
Incontrol tries to argue that each round is isolated, but it isn't. If you meet someone you've already played recently in the tournament, you have fresh data on them, which they also have on you, but that makes it not so isolated and 1 dimensional. A best of 7 is the best way to determine between 2 players which one is better of them in head to head. Double elimination doesn't always do that as you can go 3-2 vs someone and still get elim'd with them moving on. *snip* if they lose 2-0 in the upper and are at a severe disadvantage when they meet that player in the lower bracket, it is their fault because they lost so badly. At worst it ends as if they had played a bo7, and the best player between the two advances.


You're making the same mistake Tyler is (and iNcontroL did too, ironically, but on the opposite end of the argument). The rounds are not isolated, correct.

You have to look at the whole tournament. If I beat you once, and then I lose to Player C, we have both lost ONCE. Then, if you beat me (in a fresh series) and our overall record is 2-3 in my favor, I have no right to complain because I lost TWICE.

If I sit there and go "herp derp, I was 2-3!!!", I could probably get pissed off, but then I'd stop and think and be like gee... maybe it is because I lost twice, once to you, and once to Player C. You never lost against another other player, so you are the better player OVERALL out of the two of us and deserve to advance.

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 18:56 robertdinh wrote:In the end extended series isn't unfair, because every player knows the rules going in, and


No unfortunately you are looking at it incorrectly... if I send you to the lower bracket, and then lose to someone that went further than I do in the winner bracket, i've technically lost to a better player, and you've technically lost to a weaker player. Based on the tournament brackets. In reality you may be able to beat the player that beat me, but this is not a round robin tournament, so you have to judge the accuracy as best you can based on how well people are advancing.
This is just flat out silly.

New rule: Every player can't build Tier 1 units. Because every player knows it going it, it is fair.


No unfortunately you are looking at it incorrectly... if I send you to the lower bracket, and then lose to someone that went further than I do in the winner bracket, i've technically lost to a better player, and you've technically lost to a weaker player. Based on the tournament brackets. In reality you may be able to beat the player that beat me, but this is not a round robin tournament, so you have to judge the accuracy as best you can based on how well people are advancing.

If you know the rules going into the tourney you are accountable for your own results. If you get destroyed in a winner bracket game 2-0 and you know full well about the extended series rule, it is your own fault that you put yourself in the hole that much.

A lot of players don't want to be fully accountable for their own performance but that's simply how it is.

If you don't want to be in that hole, beat him, if you can't beat him in an extended series that overall puts two players at a bo7, you aren't stronger than him head to head, so why would that be unfair, and why would you deserve to advance over him?
True skill comes without effort.
stolensheep
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom306 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:14:41
November 10 2010 10:14 GMT
#4156
I just don't think tournaments are there to rank players overall, they are there to rank players AT THAT TOURNAMENT only and tournament placings add up to that specific players ranking, and the more tournaments that a player will win, the better they are. For example is player A wins event 1 & 2 and player B wins event 3, then player A will rank higher than player B on wins alone, but if player B came second in event 1 & 2 and player A was knocked out in the Ro64 at event 3, then player B becomes a better player than player A.

IMO each bo3 is an isolated event like incontrol was saying, if you play a player at like the very end of day 1 when you are really tired, that's not gonna be the same as if you play that very same player on the morning of day 3, the very first game you play. you'll be more rested and you'll have had time to prepare for your opponent and I think the extended play rule basically says "oh, that bo3 you played when you were jetlagged and running off 3 hours of sleep is the same as the match you are playing now when you are wide awake and prepared for this match." I just think that's wrong and i feel that just gives the winner of the first bo3 an unfair advantage.
twitter.com/stolensheeps
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:18:26
November 10 2010 10:15 GMT
#4157
On November 10 2010 19:08 robertdinh wrote:
If you know the rules going into the tourney you are accountable for your own results. If you get destroyed in a winner bracket game 2-0 and you know full well about the extended series rule, it is your own fault that you put yourself in the hole that much.

A lot of players don't want to be fully accountable for their own performance but that's simply how it is.


Ignoring the counterargument because it is 5:12 A.M. and my last bit of thinking went into the other post, what is your solution then?

Don't play in the only open North American tournament?!

The reason we're discussing this is because MLG said they wanted a discussion on this. They wanted us to talk about the rules during the offseason so they could get various opinions.

Not to mention some people get a lucky first round advantage because of the map. You aren't the only person accountable for your own results, there is a huge element of luck, which gets much bigger when you add in extended series (because you can lose and get lucky and never face that person again, suffering no disadvantage at all).

On November 10 2010 19:08 robertdinh wrote:
If you don't want to be in that hole, beat him, if you can't beat him in an extended series that overall puts two players at a bo7, you aren't stronger than him head to head, so why would that be unfair, and why would you deserve to advance over him?


It has nothing to do with Bo7s, it has to do with a Bo7 with him coming with the advantage from a previous match. You suffered the penalty of losing and went to the loser's bracket.

Now, due to arbitrary BS, you are playing him again with a huge disadvantage.

If you'd had better luck, you (like most other players) would have never faced the guy who knocked you down into the Loser's Bracket again.

So, randomly, based on luck, you sometimes have a huge disadvantage. How is that a good rule?
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:22:20
November 10 2010 10:19 GMT
#4158
On November 10 2010 19:15 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 19:08 robertdinh wrote:
If you know the rules going into the tourney you are accountable for your own results. If you get destroyed in a winner bracket game 2-0 and you know full well about the extended series rule, it is your own fault that you put yourself in the hole that much.

A lot of players don't want to be fully accountable for their own performance but that's simply how it is.


Ignoring the counterargument because it is 5:12 A.M. and my last bit of thinking went into the other post, what is your solution then?

Don't play in the only open North American tournament?!

The reason we're discussing this is because MLG said they wanted a discussion on this. They wanted us to talk about the rules during the offseason so they could get various opinions.

Not to mention some people get a lucky first round advantage because of the map. You aren't the only person accountable for your own results, there is a huge element of luck, which gets much bigger when you add in extended series (because you can lose and get lucky and never face that person again, suffering no disadvantage at all).


Yes and there is nothing wrong with discussing issues and disagreeing and sharing opinions.

If you don't like the rules you can choose not to participate, if you find the rules tolerable you can participate but then don't complain about the rules after they work out unfavorably for you. That is just not holding yourself accountable for your own performance.

If you lost cause of a map that sucks, but you knew the map pool and the parameters of the tourney before entering (or at least it is your responsibility to yourself to know them)

On November 10 2010 19:15 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 19:08 robertdinh wrote:
If you know the rules going into the tourney you are accountable for your own results. If you get destroyed in a winner bracket game 2-0 and you know full well about the extended series rule, it is your own fault that you put yourself in the hole that much.

A lot of players don't want to be fully accountable for their own performance but that's simply how it is.


Ignoring the counterargument because it is 5:12 A.M. and my last bit of thinking went into the other post, what is your solution then?

Don't play in the only open North American tournament?!

The reason we're discussing this is because MLG said they wanted a discussion on this. They wanted us to talk about the rules during the offseason so they could get various opinions.

Not to mention some people get a lucky first round advantage because of the map. You aren't the only person accountable for your own results, there is a huge element of luck, which gets much bigger when you add in extended series (because you can lose and get lucky and never face that person again, suffering no disadvantage at all).

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 19:08 robertdinh wrote:
If you don't want to be in that hole, beat him, if you can't beat him in an extended series that overall puts two players at a bo7, you aren't stronger than him head to head, so why would that be unfair, and why would you deserve to advance over him?


It has nothing to do with Bo7s, it has to do with a Bo7 with him coming with the advantage from a previous match. You suffered the penalty of losing and went to the loser's bracket.

Now, due to arbitrary BS, you are playing him again with a huge disadvantage.

If you'd had better luck, you (like most other players) would have never faced the guy who knocked you down into the Loser's Bracket again.

So, randomly, based on luck, you sometimes have a huge disadvantage. How is that a good rule?


But you have forgotten that the tourney tries as best it can to determine who is the stronger player... it will not put him the WINNER of your first bo3 at a disadvantage of a double bo3 format because that could work out with him winning more games yet failing to advance. It would be just as unlucky for him if he had to do typical double elim format and ran into you, winning more games overall and still getting elim'd. It puts the original loser at a disadvantage relative to what it would in a normal double elim format, but the disadvantage he is at is due to his own inability to beat the player in the upper bracket, and it determines the most accurate result of which player is stronger, where bo7 is more accurate than 2 bo3s.
True skill comes without effort.
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:31:42
November 10 2010 10:27 GMT
#4159
On November 10 2010 19:19 robertdinh wrote:
Yes and there is nothing wrong with discussing issues and disagreeing and sharing opinions.

If you don't like the rules you can choose not to participate, if you find the rules tolerable you can participate but then don't complain about the rules after they work out unfavorably for you. That is just not holding yourself accountable for your own performance.

If you lost cause of a map that sucks, but you knew the map pool and the parameters of the tourney before entering (or at least it is your responsibility to yourself to know them)

Judging by the State of the Game and other casts, most people disagree with the rules. Most of them participated anyway. Most of them complained about the rules afterwards even when they worked out well. EG.iNkA came back from 0-2 versus FnaticFenix to win 4-3, and afterwards on Live on 3, he basically said "This rule is fucked up."

Edit: Not to mention the MLG poll shows over 65% disagree with the rule, and the TL poll shows over 75%.

On November 10 2010 19:19 robertdinh wrote:
But you have forgotten that the tourney tries as best it can to determine who is the stronger player... it will not put him the WINNER of your first bo3 at a disadvantage of a double bo3 format because that could work out with him winning more games yet failing to advance. It would be just as unlucky for him if he had to do typical double elim format and ran into you, winning more games overall and still getting elim'd. It puts the original loser at a disadvantage relative to what it would in a normal double elim format, but the disadvantage he is at is due to his own inability to beat the player in the upper bracket, and it determines the most accurate result of which player is stronger, where bo7 is more accurate than 2 bo3s.


No, it wouldn't be just as unlucky, because he lost twice.

Whether or not he lost to a better player is arbitrary. He may have lost to player in different matchup, on different maps, or under other different circumstances.

The fact he is he still lost twice, and you lost once.

There is a reason no other professional tournament in the world uses extended series - at least that I've heard of. It ruins the impartiality of double elimination and adds a huge element in favor of a 'slight' increase in accuracy.

Edit: The point of a tournament is to provide entertainment and crown a winner. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone here would be willing to sacrifice a slight bit of accuracy to remove a significant amount of luck from the tournament and overall increase the enjoyment of the tournament by players and fans (according to the polls).
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-10 10:34:01
November 10 2010 10:31 GMT
#4160
On November 10 2010 19:27 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 19:19 robertdinh wrote:
Yes and there is nothing wrong with discussing issues and disagreeing and sharing opinions.

If you don't like the rules you can choose not to participate, if you find the rules tolerable you can participate but then don't complain about the rules after they work out unfavorably for you. That is just not holding yourself accountable for your own performance.

If you lost cause of a map that sucks, but you knew the map pool and the parameters of the tourney before entering (or at least it is your responsibility to yourself to know them)

Judging by the State of the Game and other casts, most people disagree with the rules. Most of them participated anyway. Most of them complained about the rules afterwards even when they worked out well. EG.iNkA came back from 0-2 versus FnaticFenix to win 4-3, and afterwards on Live on 3, he basically said "This rule is fucked up."

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2010 19:19 robertdinh wrote:
But you have forgotten that the tourney tries as best it can to determine who is the stronger player... it will not put him the WINNER of your first bo3 at a disadvantage of a double bo3 format because that could work out with him winning more games yet failing to advance. It would be just as unlucky for him if he had to do typical double elim format and ran into you, winning more games overall and still getting elim'd. It puts the original loser at a disadvantage relative to what it would in a normal double elim format, but the disadvantage he is at is due to his own inability to beat the player in the upper bracket, and it determines the most accurate result of which player is stronger, where bo7 is more accurate than 2 bo3s.


No, it wouldn't be just as unlucky, because he lost twice.

Whether or not he lost to a better player is arbitrary. He may have lost to player in different matchup, on different maps, or under other different circumstances.

The fact he is he still lost twice, and you lost once.

There is a reason no other professional tournament in the world uses extended series - at least that I've heard of. It ruins the impartiality of double elimination and adds a huge element in favor of a 'slight' increase in accuracy.


Ok and the argument can be made that if he beats you in a bo7 overall he is a better player than you and deserves to advance over you.

And yes it is unlucky if he has beaten you more than you have beaten him, and you advance further in the tourney and elim him.

Him losing to a better player is relevant because the tourney is trying within it's format to determine the strongest players of the tourney.

Some may want to see mothership rushes or other things for entertainment, but I am pretty sure there are a lot of fans that are interested in seeing who the strongest player actually is.

MLG chose to provide the best accuracy they can with their constraints, is that at the expense of entertainment? That is subjective and can be argued many ways, does it completely eliminate the entertainment? No not at all.

How accurate should MLG be in determining who is the champion? I'd prefer more accuracy than less.
True skill comes without effort.
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