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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1650

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 1648 1649 1650 1651 1652 2731 Next
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
October 05 2011 07:56 GMT
#32981
On October 05 2011 15:50 Camail wrote:
Could you imagine if SC didn't have fog of war? The game would get significantly more meta-gamed,


somewhere..chill is raging and he doesn't even know why. you better hope he doesn't find out.
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
October 05 2011 07:58 GMT
#32982
On October 05 2011 16:03 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:16 Talin wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:05 0neder wrote:
On October 05 2011 14:34 bentnormal wrote:
sc better than chess? come on artosis...

Chess is nearly infinitely slow, not real time, and has much fewer variables and depth than SC.


What do you base that on?

The number of unit and movement types and map size and variance (1).

Sure, it's simple so the depth it has been explored is incredible compared to SC, but that doesn't make it a deeper game.


If that were the case, then any game in the Age of Empires series would have a lot more depth than Starcraft, and as such probably the one game in the genre that would be the most appealing to the competitive RTS scene. However, complexity of base rules isn't directly proportional to the depth of the game. Less is often times more.

Even though there are technically more variables, most of the rules are very straightforward and there's a very small and limited set of meaningful actions a player can take during a game compared to chess. Likewise, there are only several meaningful locations on any given map and paths to those locations.
Vagabond
Profile Joined April 2011
Scotland149 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 08:03:38
October 05 2011 07:58 GMT
#32983
On October 05 2011 16:53 itmeJP wrote:
I'm going to make sure all of this comes to fruition, just for you.

Then i would like my cut of the action then, also maybe my name in the credits for said idea. :p
Drone untill i die.
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
October 05 2011 08:04 GMT
#32984
On October 05 2011 16:56 ondik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:50 Camail wrote:
Could you imagine if SC didn't have fog of war? The game would get significantly more meta-gamed,


somewhere..chill is raging and he doesn't even know why. you better hope he doesn't find out.

Oh no..... he knows why.... He just doesn't know where.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
Hall0wed
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States8486 Posts
October 05 2011 08:38 GMT
#32985
On October 05 2011 15:51 jalstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:44 ketomai wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:37 nvs. wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:28 Hall0wed wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:21 nvs. wrote:
and has much fewer variables and depth than SC.


omg. this might be the most ignorant statement ever. there are 500 page books on one variation of one opening.


If you REALLY wanted to you could write a 500 page book on 1 SC opening... I think.

Also post a link to said book you speak of, sounds quite exaggerated.


http://www.amazon.com/Chess-Openings-White-Explained-Winning/dp/1889323209/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1317796568&sr=8-29

500+ page book on one white opening (e4)


I could probably write a shit load on the possibilities after 15 hatch 16 pool too..-.-.

What Artosis is saying is that starcraft involves another factor, and that's REAL TIME. Chess can be simplified to a few moves, starcraft's moves are pretty much nearly infinite, so theoretically, it has the potential to be much, much deeper and more complex.

Try thinking how one would "solve" chess (similar to how people have solved checkers), then think about how one would "solve" starcraft.


Neither can be solved, there are more possible chess games than atoms in the observable universe.


If you are going to throw random crap like that around atleast provide a link to where you get this information. -_-

I don't care if this is true or not I just want a link because this sounds like there should be an interesting article to read out there.
♦ My Life for BESTie ♦ 류세라 = 배 ♦
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
October 05 2011 08:42 GMT
#32986
On October 05 2011 16:56 ondik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:50 Camail wrote:
Could you imagine if SC didn't have fog of war? The game would get significantly more meta-gamed,


somewhere..chill is raging and he doesn't even know why. you better hope he doesn't find out.


achoo.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Klonere
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Ireland4123 Posts
October 05 2011 08:56 GMT
#32987
wait, I hope MLG hosting = no MP3.....
KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25657 Posts
October 05 2011 08:59 GMT
#32988
Actually there is no mp3 yet because JP was tired and didnt get around to it yet.
Give it time, no big deal, there is GSL code s to watch in about 3 minutes ! :D
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
ragingfungus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States271 Posts
October 05 2011 09:04 GMT
#32989
On October 05 2011 17:38 Hall0wed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:51 jalstar wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:44 ketomai wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:37 nvs. wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:28 Hall0wed wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:21 nvs. wrote:
and has much fewer variables and depth than SC.


omg. this might be the most ignorant statement ever. there are 500 page books on one variation of one opening.


If you REALLY wanted to you could write a 500 page book on 1 SC opening... I think.

Also post a link to said book you speak of, sounds quite exaggerated.


http://www.amazon.com/Chess-Openings-White-Explained-Winning/dp/1889323209/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1317796568&sr=8-29

500+ page book on one white opening (e4)


I could probably write a shit load on the possibilities after 15 hatch 16 pool too..-.-.

What Artosis is saying is that starcraft involves another factor, and that's REAL TIME. Chess can be simplified to a few moves, starcraft's moves are pretty much nearly infinite, so theoretically, it has the potential to be much, much deeper and more complex.

Try thinking how one would "solve" chess (similar to how people have solved checkers), then think about how one would "solve" starcraft.


Neither can be solved, there are more possible chess games than atoms in the observable universe.


If you are going to throw random crap like that around atleast provide a link to where you get this information. -_-

I don't care if this is true or not I just want a link because this sounds like there should be an interesting article to read out there.


It's only true because a chess game can literally go on forever. So the amount of games is infinite. Realistic games that someone would actually play and not involve people running in circles forever with pieces and it's nowhere near true.
Logic>Everything
Mord
Profile Joined May 2011
Norway171 Posts
October 05 2011 09:05 GMT
#32990
On October 05 2011 17:59 KadaverBB wrote:
Actually there is no mp3 yet because JP was tired and didnt get around to it yet.
Give it time, no big deal, there is GSL code s to watch in about 3 minutes ! :D


Not everyone is in the comfort of their own home, would be hard to explain why I'm watching GSL at work.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
October 05 2011 09:10 GMT
#32991
On October 05 2011 18:05 Mord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 17:59 KadaverBB wrote:
Actually there is no mp3 yet because JP was tired and didnt get around to it yet.
Give it time, no big deal, there is GSL code s to watch in about 3 minutes ! :D


Not everyone is in the comfort of their own home, would be hard to explain why I'm watching GSL at work.

No it wouldn't. You're watching it because its fucking awesome and Tasteless is one sexy man.

Now would that explanation be acceptable? Depends where you work.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
zaii
Profile Joined October 2010
Guam2611 Posts
October 05 2011 09:10 GMT
#32992
On October 05 2011 16:35 brum wrote:
Show nested quote +
The show can't be hosted on blip anymore. That doesn't benefit MLG at all. It can't be posted through JTV archives -- that doesn't benefit MLG at all either.

MLG is ruining esports!


yea, Wish MLG never existed.
DND_Enkil
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden598 Posts
October 05 2011 09:39 GMT
#32993
On October 05 2011 18:10 zaii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 16:35 brum wrote:
The show can't be hosted on blip anymore. That doesn't benefit MLG at all. It can't be posted through JTV archives -- that doesn't benefit MLG at all either.

MLG is ruining esports!


yea, Wish MLG never existed.


In my innocence i belived SotG was a "private" production/show and not actually produced by MLG, even tho JP works for MLG and there where obviously some connections.

Huh... You live and you learn.
"If you write about a sewing needle there is always some one-eyed bastard that gets offended" - Fritiof The Pirate Nilsson
Elean
Profile Joined October 2010
689 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 09:48:51
October 05 2011 09:46 GMT
#32994
On October 05 2011 17:38 Hall0wed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 15:51 jalstar wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:44 ketomai wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:37 nvs. wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:28 Hall0wed wrote:
On October 05 2011 15:21 nvs. wrote:
and has much fewer variables and depth than SC.


omg. this might be the most ignorant statement ever. there are 500 page books on one variation of one opening.


If you REALLY wanted to you could write a 500 page book on 1 SC opening... I think.

Also post a link to said book you speak of, sounds quite exaggerated.


http://www.amazon.com/Chess-Openings-White-Explained-Winning/dp/1889323209/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1317796568&sr=8-29

500+ page book on one white opening (e4)


I could probably write a shit load on the possibilities after 15 hatch 16 pool too..-.-.

What Artosis is saying is that starcraft involves another factor, and that's REAL TIME. Chess can be simplified to a few moves, starcraft's moves are pretty much nearly infinite, so theoretically, it has the potential to be much, much deeper and more complex.

Try thinking how one would "solve" chess (similar to how people have solved checkers), then think about how one would "solve" starcraft.


Neither can be solved, there are more possible chess games than atoms in the observable universe.


If you are going to throw random crap like that around atleast provide a link to where you get this information. -_-

I don't care if this is true or not I just want a link because this sounds like there should be an interesting article to read out there.

Yeah there is no excuse for not thinking about all those poor people who haven't figured out how to use google yet.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
October 05 2011 09:48 GMT
#32995
Is the VoD up yet? Mp3 file apparently isn't..
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
October 05 2011 09:55 GMT
#32996
It's only true because a chess game can literally go on forever. So the amount of games is infinite. Realistic games that someone would actually play and not involve people running in circles forever with pieces and it's nowhere near true.

Chess games can't go on forever, and the amount of possible games is not infinite. They are limited by two important moves, the three-move repetition rule, and the fifty move rule (the fifty move rule is very much like a chess equivalent of the conditions for a drawn game in sc2).

"The number of legal positions in chess is estimated to be between 10^43 and 10^47 (a provable upper bound), with a game-tree complexity of approximately 10^123. The game-tree complexity of chess was first calculated by Claude Shannon as 10^120, a number known as the Shannon number. Typically an average position has thirty to forty possible moves, but there may be as few as zero (in the case of checkmate or stalemate) or as many as 218." (from wikipedia).
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
iRaYP
Profile Joined March 2011
Scotland66 Posts
October 05 2011 10:01 GMT
#32997
Kinda annoyed the mp3 or vods dont seem to be up yet , if they want to host it on mlg.tv fine, if they want to split it into 5 parts to be able to host it on mlg.tv fine but atleast get it up quickly
Herp Derp
Heraklitus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States553 Posts
October 05 2011 11:02 GMT
#32998
Meh, no SOTG mp3 for my Wednesday commute. :-(
KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25657 Posts
October 05 2011 11:10 GMT
#32999
On October 05 2011 19:01 iRaYP wrote:
Kinda annoyed the mp3 or vods dont seem to be up yet , if they want to host it on mlg.tv fine, if they want to split it into 5 parts to be able to host it on mlg.tv fine but atleast get it up quickly




JP stated on his twitter that he was super tired and was gonna upload the MP3 and Vod after he got some sleep.

It has nothing to do with MLG.
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
October 05 2011 11:59 GMT
#33000
Not trying to complain here, I know there are issues for last weeks episode, but like can't we just have it chill on twitch till the vods are up on mlg? Using mp3s kinda sucks compared to actually watching and there is no way I can watch live thanks to timezones.
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