Only played vs Insane and Very Hard. Insane resource cheats, receives 7 minerals and 6 gas per trip. Very hard does not, though it has good timing and seems like decent BOs so far.
Only played 1 game vs each so not sure how many builds they have but they are a decent challenge as of now.
Heading out for now, let me know what builds you find them doing, can post replays tomorrow.
I can't create a custom game, I've downloaded a few maps and relogged several times. When I select "create game" it just grays out. Anyone have this problem?
On July 08 2010 13:01 Nexic wrote: I can't create a custom game, I've downloaded a few maps and relogged several times. When I select "create game" it just grays out. Anyone have this problem?
Just wait it's just super laggy. Create it and then wait like 10 minutes
Then I went up to insane. So far I've only done against terran and all I've seen is nonstop pumping of marine/marauders with no teching or expanding. My guess is that they only tech if the game goes on long enough.
The first few I just got rolled by their first attack, since I was trying to tech. Then I just said screw it and proxy gated, and won pretty easily. They seem to go very light on the defense at the beginning, making them vulnerable to rushes. I think it made 3 raxes before the first marine.
Overall, the Insane AI seems decently difficult, albeit extremely predictable. I'm going back to try winning a straight up game again, so we'll see how it goes. I might try turtling up to see if they tech/expand in the late game.
The AI is very poor. They pretty much took Very Easy and gave it a higher APM cap and bonus resource turn-ins. They've actually run themselves out of money because they don't expand and mine out. The only part that makes them threatening is when their bonus money kicks in early-in and they get a lot of units. After that they gradually run themselves into the ground by refusing to upgrade, expand, or tech.
I have not played Green Tea or anything but I'm pretty sure anyone with Galaxy knowledge could walk in and make the AI's build orders somewhat coherent (Dual robo before warp gates? wuh?) and make them expand more and they would be far more dangerous.
As it is the Zerg basically made Roaches to fight my carriers off of one base 25 minutes into the game.
Also I'm pretty sure the Insane AI can see units above a cliff without vision, but I need to test this more thoroughly.
Very disappointing but mechanically the AI has improved over the earlier AI; it just needs direction.
/e
To go more elaborate into the AI's major weaknesses;
The AI does not fully saturate its bases (20 drones with saturated gasses). Early on the resource bonus gives it a significant advantage. The Zerg built 3 hatcheries and acquired 2 queens. However, when the time came to made units it quickly bottomed out in cash and did not expand for another 12 minutes; by the its main was almost dry. It did not make extractors on that expansion until the ones in its main were dry and it was out of gas. At several points early on it was sitting on 1k minerals and 2k gas while doing nothing; it should have been aggressively expanding, clearly.
Having built AI's in sc1 to take advantage of free money from a purely macro standpoint it was downright painful to watch this AI.
On July 08 2010 13:56 IskatuMesk wrote: The AI is very poor. They pretty much took Very Easy and gave it a higher APM cap and bonus resource turn-ins. They've actually run themselves out of money because they don't expand and mine out. The only part that makes them threatening is when their bonus money kicks in early-in and they get a lot of units. After that they gradually run themselves into the ground by refusing to upgrade, expand, or tech.
I have not played Green Tea or anything but I'm pretty sure anyone with Galaxy knowledge could walk in and make the AI's build orders somewhat coherent (Dual robo before warp gates? wuh?) and make them expand more and they would be far more dangerous.
As it is the Zerg basically made Roaches to fight my carriers off of one base 25 minutes into the game.
Ya, the AI is bad. I tried insane my first game as terran versus random(zerg). I didn't really know what to expect, but I scouted him, he had way more money than he should had so I knew it was a cheating AI. Once I defended the first couple rushes, because they don't expo, I pulled ahead in late game and just rolled him with the perfect combos.
Okay, so I tried turtling up against Terran to see what he would do. I fast expanded on Lost Temple and walled myself in with nothing but cannons.
The first few attacks he ran up to my front door and apparently saw that he couldn't win, and retreated. This happened several times before he decided to get Battlecruisers. By the end of the game (around 30 mins) he had expanded to his natural, the gold, and the island. Eventually I got mined out and overwhelmed by brute force MMM and BCs. He also made several ravens and ghosts, and just a few vikings.
Some other interesting things I noted: - He had one medivac constantly scouting the entire map. - They do scout with an SCV at the beginning, but what they see doesn't seem to influence the build. I think it's more to find out where you are. - Built several factories, but never produced anything out of them. - SCV transferred to new expansions. - Got a nuke(!) but never used it () - 600 average APM, peaking at around 2300.
So basically, the AI likes brute force, but is not particularly intelligent. At all. In all likelihood, it will pretty much stick to one build and remain almost completely predictable. Seems to be your typical video game AI. I'm a little disappointed that they didn't make it more interesting, but hopefully they'll put some more work into it after release.
The AI is done terribly. Greentea is better, Auir is better, Strategy AI, is better, heck most AI scripts that people made are better. The Insane AI is a terrible idea. Playing against a computer with extra minerals is probably degrading to your skill since the timings are different from normal games.
This explains everything. I was playing Insane and I just couldn't figure out why the computer pumped out so much units in such a short time span. I've played enough games to know little things like "At this time, this player should and shouldn't have..." etc etc.
Here I thought my skills were so rusty and diminished, only to find out the insane AI is just cheating. Gave me one heck of a game though.
As far as I'm concerned, it does help me keep me alert and play more intensely for an AI.
But the AI is just terrible really. I still noticed some old AI behaviors and it just isn't quite smart.
Btw, if you're wondering, a good way to play the AI is just load up the map editor, load a map, change player 2 to computer, computer AI, change your race, etc etc, edit the preference [Test document] or something and set your difficulty and whatnot and actually test the map.
On July 08 2010 14:41 MiyaviTeddy wrote: This explains everything. I was playing Insane and I just couldn't figure out why the computer pumped out so much units in such a short time span. I've played enough games to know little things like "At this time, this player should and shouldn't have..." etc etc.
Here I thought my skills were so rusty and diminished, only to find out the insane AI is just cheating. Gave me one heck of a game though.
As far as I'm concerned, it does help me keep me alert and play more intensely for an AI.
But the AI is just terrible really. I still noticed some old AI behaviors and it just isn't quite smart.
Btw, if you're wondering, a good way to play the AI is just load up the map editor, load a map, change player 2 to computer, computer AI, change your race, etc etc, edit the preference [Test document] or something and set your difficulty and whatnot and actually test the map.
Blizzard codes AIs for casuals clearly, and casuals see 'Insane' as 'should be un-beatable' and so they make it cheat with extra resources.
On July 08 2010 14:41 MiyaviTeddy wrote: This explains everything. I was playing Insane and I just couldn't figure out why the computer pumped out so much units in such a short time span. I've played enough games to know little things like "At this time, this player should and shouldn't have..." etc etc.
Here I thought my skills were so rusty and diminished, only to find out the insane AI is just cheating. Gave me one heck of a game though.
As far as I'm concerned, it does help me keep me alert and play more intensely for an AI.
But the AI is just terrible really. I still noticed some old AI behaviors and it just isn't quite smart.
Btw, if you're wondering, a good way to play the AI is just load up the map editor, load a map, change player 2 to computer, computer AI, change your race, etc etc, edit the preference [Test document] or something and set your difficulty and whatnot and actually test the map.
Blizzard codes AIs for casuals clearly, and casuals see 'Insane' as 'should be un-beatable' and so they make it cheat with extra resources.
Can you imagine blizzard just taking third-party AIs like Dark Green Tea and whatnot and implemented into SC2?
A well written cheating AI should not be beatable...
At least they made a decent AI editor so I think we will see the "home made" AI's get respectably good over time. I don't think Blizzard will put in the time to make their own AI spectacular.
I'm not surprised at the poor AI implementation by Blizzard. It would take a serious effort to make the AI really good and considering SC2 at the higher levels is a PvP game, it does not make sense for them to spend the amount of resources it would take to create a high level AI. Leave that to the map makers. Now, if they can just fix the server so I can create a game... that would be great.
To play with friends who don't play SC2 as their primary game or to teach a friend that's new to the game.
And personally I think that this, like several other said before, is why the A.I. doesn't have to better than it is right now. It would just be a waste of resources.
I wish they had more difficulties. Ones that would give even the best player troubles. I want IdrA to be challenged when he plays "super duper omega supreme fucked up hard."
Lol, the AI still could be in beta, just like the rest of the game. Maybe Blizz is still working on some harder AI but just hasn't patched it in yet. Hell, the game isn't even out yet and the phase 2 of the beta has been out less than six hours!
On July 08 2010 15:53 sjschmidt93 wrote: I wish they had more difficulties. Ones that would give even the best player troubles. I want IdrA to be challenged when he plays "super duper omega supreme fucked up hard."
Play a straight on macro game against green racer. Don't touch it at all in the early game and you got a stupidly hard fight on your hands.
The AI is garbage but i got a feeling its meant to be that way. I think it will be useful for testing build speeds in a somewhat real arena. Still cant use it to practice strategy or tactics in any useful way.
On July 08 2010 15:41 Subversion wrote: i must say i really dont understand the appeal of playing against AI when you could just as easily play against other people.
why would you ever choose to play against ai over real people? just think its so much more interesting.
I can think of some reasons, although you wont hear me say they are a good idea.
1) Some people just like winning consistently. An AI gives you this. These are the kinds of people who will complain that the AI is too easy but still like to beat it 25 times in a row. While secretly hoping that it won't get any harder...
2) To try out some build orders/mechanics/"useful skills toi have". Yes, you could much better use something like YABOT. However, some (casual) people wouldn't know where to get something like that. Yes, you could much better play against a friend to try stuff out. However, some people don't have friends who play Starcraft.
3) For some people the AI is challenging enough as it is. Keep in mind that there are a bunch of leagues below diamond/platinum/whatever it's called now...
4) The most important thing IMO, for some people it is daunting to play online against another player. The very first time you do this, you are waaaaaaay out of your comfort zone.
All of these make some people play AI. I think, with the new Blizzard-coded trainings (hotkeys, timings, macro, micro, ...) more people will step up to the plate.
The AI isn't just bad it's horribly inefficient. The huge amount of APM is from nonstop spam that occurs when even nothing is really happening (Averaging 700APM when all you have is some overlords and burrowed roaches while I waste your base with carriers? Really?)
Incidentally this CPU overhead gets significant when there's a lot of computers in action doing nothing besides spamming useless commands at insane speeds.
I think I beat the Very Hard ai, PvP at Steppes Of War, and I've only been ranked as high as Gold. It outmacroed me a little but its micro and strategy was awful, it tried to pursue me into my base and it lost most of its army inside my ramp as my stalkers were taking free shots on its zealots and the AI's stalkers were barely hitting me because of the location.
Blizzard has said that the AI in SC2 will be better than any AI they ever created, but after winning this game and seeing the posts in this thread I doubt that will happen, its micro and strategy is just awful.
It seems like it would be trivial to build an AI that scales well. They can all use the same builds but then scale the difficulty by limiting APM to human levels. Blizz has the ability, I wonder why they would slack like this?
On July 08 2010 21:30 Dionyseus wrote: I think I beat the Very Hard ai, PvP at Steppes Of War, and I've only been ranked as high as Gold. It outmacroed me a little but its micro and strategy was awful, it tried to pursue me into my base and it lost most of its army inside my ramp as my stalkers were taking free shots on its zealots and the AI's stalkers were barely hitting me because of the location.
Blizzard has said that the AI in SC2 will be better than any AI they ever created, but after winning this game and seeing the posts in this thread I doubt that will happen, its micro and strategy is just awful.
Here's the replay: [url blocked]
Watching the replay I notice the AI only made 2 gates vs my 4 gates. Pretty weak.
I played a funny game agaisnt the insane ai where he roach all-in'd me and busted into my base. Meanwhile I had 1 void ray killing all his buildings. The ai just came in, killed my nexus and then ran back to it's base. I won. haha
Personally I think the AI is a nice way for a beginner / low level player to train against early pressure. In Bronze league you dont have serious early aggression and you dont know how to handle it well enough to survive. Learning to build against this is a nice thing, but it also has its limitations.
In Warcraft 2 there were three very clearly defined AIs: Land, Sea, Air and they were unable to switch between these tactics. Lets hope the SC2 AIs are smart enough to "evolve"; they dont seem to be atm.
INsane Zergs tend to always open roaches and go into roach/hydra they stay at lair tech and get a spire but never seem to actually use it. Insane as opposed to Very Hard will aggressively expand if you don't pressure it which makes it rather difficult seeing as it already resource cheats.
Insane toss always seems to scout and poke with zealots a little bit then suddenly has zealot/sentry/immortal/stalker ramming down your throat. Once again it doesn't seem to ever tech past this point even when allowed to take the map.
Terran likes marauders and tanks left alone long enough it will eventually make banshees as well. None of the Insane AI ever really progress to true lategame strategies though so if you can live long enough you can usually just play for the lategame.
edit: Though interestingly enough I cannon rushed the terran AI for my Insane Blitz achievement and havent been able to do it again since it always pulls half the workers as soon as I start the pylon even if it's out of sight range so I'm not sure if the AI learns or just cheats and I got extremely lucky in the couple second window as it only seems to pull workers if it has no fighting units.
edit2: The AI doesnt appear to adapt to the player either most of my observations about late game Insane AI is by taking an island and turtling to a mega air army. None of the AIs really built any solid anti Air whenever I did this nor did it really figure out how to kill me on the island. The zerg will nydus to an island toe xpand but doesn't seem to use thema ggressively.
Considering Blizzard owns and has access to every replay of every game of SC2 ever played, I would be very disappointed if they didn't have AIs as strong as the world's best players. They have all of the experience of platinum players with which to train.
my girlfriend beat very easy and then easy on like her first 2 computer game (any computer game) matches ever. with my help of course, but still, it was sick, LOL
On July 08 2010 22:48 Daxten wrote: Blizzards AI = real AI
GreentTea and so on are just scripted events with hardcoded BO's
so I think it's normal that it is easier to beat atm, maybe they will upgrade it sometime but I dont think it's one of the major features of the game
Blizzard AI x3 can be managed by a bot pretty handily/d+ player. It's all about barricade management against more than one and/or cheating opponent when they rush you.
I personally find the difficulty pretty similar to starcrack ai, atleast for the insane levels. Me and my friend tried to 2v2 the insane ai, but we just got rolled by the cheating timing attack since they attack together =[
I dunno, I understand that the AI is not that great but I just see the AI game as a way to test out some build orders while getting attacked which can throw you off. It's something that I've been working on, and so far I'm finding it beneficial. Perhaps when I panic less when something tries to interrupt my build order, I'll find it much less useful.
On July 08 2010 23:04 habermas wrote: What do you mean by "real AI"? They are scripted in the same way as the others.
This isn't well-known, but Blizzard AIs are in fact true artificial intelligences complete with consciousness. They pass the Turing test. A Blizzard task force is investigating the moral implications of killing them as we speak.
On July 08 2010 21:30 Dionyseus wrote:Blizzard has said that the AI in SC2 will be better than any AI they ever created, but after winning this game and seeing the posts in this thread I doubt that will happen, its micro and strategy is just awful.
Haha yeah it's pretty awful, even the brood war AI could be pretty deadly, I don't think have outdone themselves at all.
On July 08 2010 23:04 habermas wrote: What do you mean by "real AI"? They are scripted in the same way as the others.
This isn't well-known, but Blizzard AIs are in fact true artificial intelligences complete with consciousness. They pass the Turing test. A Blizzard task force is investigating the moral implications of killing them as we speak.
That's exactly what i thought when he said "real AI". SkyNet, anyone?
ok update my gf beat the "hard" difficulty level now on her like 5th game of starcraft ever.
she is not a gamer, at all, the only game she plays is rockband once a month and super smash bros like once a month. lol.
she sat void rays and zealots as the computer poured broodlords ultras and some corrupters into them, and then sent her whole army a-click to the back of his main. so hilarious.
tldr: my retarded girlfriend who doesnt play video games beat a "hard" level AI player with voidrays
On July 08 2010 21:30 Dionyseus wrote:Blizzard has said that the AI in SC2 will be better than any AI they ever created, but after winning this game and seeing the posts in this thread I doubt that will happen, its micro and strategy is just awful.
Haha yeah it's pretty awful, even the brood war AI could be pretty deadly, I don't think have outdone themselves at all.
it's kinda sad considering how there have been numerous AI micro projects for BW. You would've imagined that Blizzard would take some of those and adapted them into their AI :\
It wouldn't surprise me if an AI could only work if it had some kind of way to evaluate its gamestate, based on a hierarchical tree of high-level possibilities to be programmed by the AI maintainers, and based on that decided to take its next action. In any case, key is that someone maintains an AI, since after all it cannot learn on its own while there is continious strategical development among players.
I'll be honest and say that I'm having trouble as a Zerg against very hard Terran. Easy enough to rush spellings and banelings after a couple tries. But having trouble playing more standard game against them.
I can say that Very Hard settings is even easy for a casual player like me. I have a 40-60 APM and it's too easy to defeat the computer. It's very predictable and not at all fun.
I just now beat 2 insane AI on my own... so dissapointing how poor their ai is.
basically just turtled super super hard, and then when I got a strong voidray/ carrier force I won the game... despite the fact the AI new I was going air...
EPT
