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1st of all :
i searched "draw" on the site for similar threads and saw threads about drawings, some sites about draw system, but nothing with relevant ideas, as I am about to propose
2nd thing :
The 7th of june several weeks server downtime is comming, and i expect that Blizzard will release something new, correct bugs, improve BNet2.0 (which is right now rightfully called 0.2). I know Blizzard is looking through community sites, so i hope this thread stays bumped so their people can see the suggestions i have, and maybe implement some ideas they see here, maybe make a petition, i don't know but something must be done against the unfairness, see below.
3rd thing :
Alot of matches, well not alot, end up that neither player can eliminate the other. No need to exemplify, if it has happened to you you know how frustrating it is, NonY is the 1st name that pops into my mind right now as players that i've seen this happening to.
The problem is that when no player can be eliminated, and no draw option available, which would be the fair thing here, the player who loses is the player who quits/get's bored faster or the player who gets disconnected. This is not a fair thing, to see a player have to lose a game when he cannot lose it, and to see another player win a game when he cannot win it.
4th thing :
Before trolling about how SC2 is not like other strategy games, just read what i have to say. I do not think SC2 or SCBW is chess on steroids, nor do i think a game is "like" another, many aspects of life are alike and different in the same time.
I am also a chess player, and rules in chess about draw, being a game that was around since 1400, are very clear. i can go on and on about chess rules and so, but the point is that if the position is a draw, one player cannot refuse to draw, as if no progress is made by neither side for 50 moves it's a draw. (no progress made = no pieces captured or no pawns moved)
Also if the position is a draw, and both players agree it's a draw, the match ends in a draw by mutual agreement.
In my opinion, the system perfected in hundreds of years of CHESS being played by all kinds of players (some more fair-play than others ) should be adapted to SC2
My suggestion 1: THE FORCED DRAW
This is how it would work
If no resources are mined or no units/buildings destroyed for x minutes => auto draw
This way if both players are screwed and do not realise that the other player is screwed too, they get a draw message
If one player refuses to draw while no player can logically win it cannot wait and wait and hope the other player leaves or disconnects, if he doesn't do something in x minutes the game is drawn
note : the x value can be agreed by the developers as they see fit
My suggestion 2: THE DRAW BY AGREEMENT
This is how it would work
In multiplayer games, somewhere in the allies/diplomacy tab, or just anywhere, there should be a "propose draw" button, but not to the point where people can abuse this:
every player can propose draw 1 time. If they have 0 draw requests available, they get 1 request when the other player proposes draw to them. this way, if they refuse, but later decide that they cannot win, they can propose draw themselves, and when the other player accepts the game ends in a draw
Also, the TL user shawabawa came with the following suggestion: [edit]+ Show Spoiler +
You have a check-box in the alliance menu (for example) which says offer draw. If you check it, nothing happens. No notifications come up, and other player sees nothing. If the other player has it checked at the same time, then it's a draw.
This way you don't have to be paranoid about people hiding and offering draws, there's no spam on your screen and they know there's no way you're accidentally going to press it. Additionally it could become enabled only after 30mins or if some in-game condition is met (such as all nexus/cc/hatch dying)
My completation
also ..... the server could mention to the player .... like a text or something that a certain player has turned on the agree-draw option
Conclussion :
The above suggestions would make the game more fair and less frustrating when a no-one-can-win situation occurs. Also, the draw would have a fair impact on the ladder points (if a stronger player draws with a weaker player, he won't lose as many points as if he had lost, and the weaker player won't win as many as if he had won)
The above suggestion is not even hard to implement, since the game already has a system which tells you each playes's exact unit/building producing time, income, the exact number of lost army, both unit-wise and resource-wise.
The above suggestions would not interfere in any way with the player-being-revealed system that is currently on. This would only create a better alternative, would make this game better, would create a 3rd way a game could end, and would stimulate fair-play.
Please, post your comments and tell me what you think about my suggestions.
Also, if some1 could post these on Bnet forum, please feel free to do so!
The purpose of this thread/suggestion is that it actually gets to Dustin Browder's ears, and it is implemented in the actual game!
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I like you suggestions and I agree something like this should be implemented.
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Not meant as a thread steal
I was looking through the profile of this player (that I just lost to, yes...) and noticed he had a Draw in his match results.
So far I have only ever seen a Win (gold cup symbol) or Loss (skull symbol), but this guy had an actual Draw. Symbol was a circle with a horizontal line.
Anybody happen to know how this happens?
EDIT
About the OP: The agreed draw button should/could be there. What would be the plan here, 0 points for both? Blizzard is paranoid for any sort of griefing/abuse when it comes to these sort of features.
The forced draw: Not mining might not actually work. Once it's known that mining a bit stops the "Draw-timer" people will just not fully mine their last patch and sporadically mine from it once...
I think some sort of intelligent algorithm should be able to define a draw, but maybe if the draw button is there, it wouldn't have to. A time-out on game time might even be enough
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On June 02 2010 21:07 NeoLearner wrote:
Not meant as a thread steal
I was looking through the profile of this player (that I just lost to, yes...) and noticed he had a Draw in his match results.
So far I have only ever seen a Win (gold cup symbol) or Loss (skull symbol), but this guy had an actual Draw. Symbol was a circle with a horizontal line.
Anybody happen to know how this happens?
cancelled match due to both plers being disconnected ....guess this was rigth after patch13 when eu servers were terribly laggy and disconnects were like mushrooms after a rain
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You also get a draw when you play custom UMS maps, if you didn't know.
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I don't think suggestion 2 is that great... alot of players will prolong the game and ask for Draw even if its an obvious GG, and thats just annoying... I do think that suggestion 1 should be implemented though.
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On June 02 2010 21:16 Majk wrote:
I don't think suggestion 2 is that great... alot of players will prolong the game and ask for Draw even if its an obvious GG, and thats just annoying... I do think that suggestion 1 should be implemented though.
i alrady thought of that
read the OP ..... whey won't be able to spam "offer draw" as they will offer draw 1 time, then after that they cannot offer draw until you offer draw yourself.
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Those situations happens like 0,1% of the games (it never happened to me in 400+games)... So i really don't care about this in ladder games. Tournaments can have rules for those cases.
If this situation happens to me (the game is no more interresting, it's just waiting for the 1rst leaver), i just leave. For me, ladder is for fun or practice, so i don't care about it.
I don't understand why i see this draw issue so many times on TL forums, is this really important in ladder games?
I don't know why, but I have the feeling that this is maybe an issue for terrans going for counter attacks with marauders + flying building 
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On June 02 2010 21:22 HubertFelix wrote:
Those situations happens like 0,1% of the games... So i really don't care about this in ladder games. Tournaments can have rules for those cases.
If this situation happens to me (the game is no more interresting, it's just waiting for the 1rst leaver), i just leave. For me, ladder is for fun or practice, so i don't care about it.
I don't understand why i see this draw issue so many times on TL forums, is this really important in ladder games?
is playing ladder games for points important?
if you play ladder games and gain / lose points based on your results, then i believe the possibility that a game should be drawn is crucial. Not for the result itself, not for the possibility of this happening 0.1% of the games, but for the fairness.
It really hurt me seeing NonY lose to some noob after domination a whole match, just coz the noob stayed in the game longer than NonY
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Yeah, I read the OP, and i still think it would be annoying even if they can send the draw once... The amount of abusive/cheesy players in the current ladder tells me that you pretty much gonna get an offer for draw before gg in 9 out of 10 games, and thats just Bad manner... If people don't care if they reach Plat/Diam with 6 pool only, they certainly gonna try to get an draw every single time they fail...
But as I said suggestion 1 is absolutely something i think Blizz should implement. Maybe suggestion 2 would be great in custom matches, but not for ladders.
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i can't see why some sort of draw-system shouldn't be implemented as long as it's not spamable.
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I like option 1 but to be honest it's hardly that important. I just leave the game if it's stalemate, it's hard to care about record when the game basically guarantees you'll have about a 50% win ratio no matter what you do, just take the loss and you'll probably be matched up against someone easier the next game.
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This suggestion is so good I registered just to post this ^^
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I don't think this is necessary. There are so many variables in this game, I can't see how it would be possible that one player can't beat the other one, even if it is down to two SCVs duking it out. If the game gets so long that it's boring, then the player with more patience is rewarded with a win.
If some player managed to survive against NonY for so long that NonY got tired of playing and quit, then I would hardly classify that player as a noob.
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I agree with this. It is rare that it should happen, but it would be a nice feature. It the button for proposing a draw should only become available after certain conditions are met - this should eliminate people proposing draws when they are losing because they think it is funny.
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On June 02 2010 21:49 Tuplex wrote:
I don't think this is necessary. There are so many variables in this game, I can't see how it would be possible that one player can't beat the other one, even if it is down to two SCVs duking it out. If the game gets so long that it's boring, then the player with more patience is rewarded with a win.
If some player managed to survive against NonY for so long that NonY got tired of playing and quit, then I would hardly classify that player as a noob.
A protoss has 0 minerals and no nexuses and no anti air. The terran only has a floating barracks and 0 minerals. Thats how one player cant beat the other vica versa.
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Absolutely totally disagree for the forced draw. In the situation of one game of Liquid Nony (which btw had a thread which discussed the same thing) a forced draw is clearly taking away the win from in the case Nony. A draw by agreement I support, but I for instance know that I won't give up in any case..
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given that it is very possible for people to just be bm and refuse a draw even in an inevitable situation, i do think it is possible for blizzard to implement an auto draw. in the case that for instance 5 minutes pass without a single unit being created or destroyed, which really *should* draw, because i don't think anybody would want to play or watch a game where something like that happens for too long.
edit: read OP more clearly.
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On June 02 2010 21:44 Wargizmo wrote:
I like option 1 but to be honest it's hardly that important. I just leave the game if it's stalemate, it's hard to care about record when the game basically guarantees you'll have about a 50% win ratio no matter what you do, just take the loss and you'll probably be matched up against someone easier the next game.
or you can get better at the game and start beating better players, promote into better leagues and so on ..... not every player has 50% win ratio. some are better, some are worse .... this is why some people play in tournaments and win cash while other 6pool all the time and play the lottery.
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even if autodraws couldnt be implemented an offer to draw would still be usefull.
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The draw offer should display only in the allies menu, it shouldn't send any notifications, so they can't be spammed and at the same time there would be no need for limits like how many times you can offer draw.
Either way an automatic draw after something like 3 minutes without resource mining or units killed would have to be implemented in order to prevent assholes from refusing obvious draws.
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On June 02 2010 21:32 Majk wrote:
Yeah, I read the OP, and i still think it would be annoying even if they can send the draw once... The amount of abusive/cheesy players in the current ladder tells me that you pretty much gonna get an offer for draw before gg in 9 out of 10 games, and thats just Bad manner... If people don't care if they reach Plat/Diam with 6 pool only, they certainly gonna try to get an draw every single time they fail...
But as I said suggestion 1 is absolutely something i think Blizz should implement. Maybe suggestion 2 would be great in custom matches, but not for ladders.
they send the draw offer once, you reject ..... how is that annoying
the thing is that they can annoy you more by talking crap or things like that
let me get this clear :
they 6pool you, you dismantle that
they go for mutas then, you resist that
then, with a better economy you come down on them and
while you take them out, they talk crap at you, calling you noob and idiot and then,
a SINGLE DRAW PROPOSAL is so annoying as you need a huge apm of 1 click to reject?
i am sorry, but i fail to understand you
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I remember there being a game with an offer draw system in place that worked like this:
You have a check-box in the alliance menu (for example) which says offer draw. If you check it, nothing happens. No notifications come up, and other player sees nothing. If the other player has it checked at the same time, then it's a draw.
This way you don't have to be paranoid about people hiding and offering draws, there's no spam on your screen and they know there's no way you're accidentally going to press it. Additionally it could become enabled only after 30mins or if some in-game condition is met (such as all nexus/cc/hatch dying)
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On June 02 2010 22:29 shawabawa wrote:
I remember there being a game with an offer draw system in place that worked like this:
You have a check-box in the alliance menu (for example) which says offer draw. If you check it, nothing happens. No notifications come up, and other player sees nothing. If the other player has it checked at the same time, then it's a draw.
This way you don't have to be paranoid about people hiding and offering draws, there's no spam on your screen and they know there's no way you're accidentally going to press it. Additionally it could become enabled only after 30mins or if some in-game condition is met (such as all nexus/cc/hatch dying)
totally agree here ...... i will edit my OP now to reflect that ......
also ..... the server could mention to the player .... like a text or something that a certain player has turned on the agree-draw option
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Let me come at this from a perspective of a chess player:
In chess there are draws and draw offers, but it's different because there are end conditions that trigger a draw (3 move repetition, 50 moves without a capture or a pawn move, stalemate), sometimes players obviously see one of these coming (for example lone king vs lone king) so they agree to a draw. In starcraft there's not really an equivalent of this where BOTH players have this information. You could define some rules, but they need to be pretty simple and I also think you shouldn't really allow draw offers, this might drag on the game, but I think premature draws at the top level would really hurt a potential eSports community (much like they sometimes hurt high-level chess).
Here are draw conditions:
1) No mobile attacking structures (spine crawlers, spore crawlers), "attacking" units for either side, (no unit-producing structures or insufficient money to produce from any unit-producing structures).
2) No mining for 10 minutes by either player and no units or structures lost for 10 minutes and no units produced for 10 minutes. Mining is defined as returning minerals to a hatchery/nexus/command center.
Although I will say the whole point of this is kind of silly, if it were for some kind of tournament or real ladder, the players could ask for the game to be adjudicated or agree to a draw in game and just someone leave. If it's for the battle.net ladder a draw isn't available, but really, who cares? Just lose one game if you can't convince your opponent to flip for it, the battle.net ladder (even if there is a pro-league) will probably matter very little.
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I remember seeing a WC3 replay of a long game that by your classifications would probably have ended a draw, but IMO was soo worth it, for what happened.
The map was completely mined out, and the UD player was stuck on an island with his last building, 3 heroes and a frostwyrm. I think the other player was a HU, with lots of towers and an army on the mainland, but nothing that could take down the 3 UD heroes, at least not with all gold depleted.
With neither player willing to concede defeat, they both left the game running during the night hoping the other would disconnect. But come morning the UD had come up with an ingenious solution.
Can you guess how the UD was able to leave his island prison and claim victory?
+ Show Spoiler +
as accurately as I can remember it...
painstakingly slowly, he shepherded an enemy unit or creep, from the other side of the map with attacks from his frostwyrm until it was placed on the otherside of the river next to his island where he killed it, leaving a corpse, that he was able to resurrect, using the DK ultimate, as a friendly summoned unit. With that unit in place he was able to use his staff of teleportation to tp across the river to it, then buy a goblin zeppelin and transport the other heroes across, and thus finish the remaining human forces. gg
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Seriously... who cares? This is just ladder.
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On June 02 2010 23:31 teapot wrote:I remember seeing a WC3 replay of a long game that by your classifications would probably have ended a draw, but IMO was soo worth it, for what happened. The map was completely mined out, and the UD player was stuck on an island with his last building, 3 heroes and a frostwyrm. I think the other player was a HU, with lots of towers and an army on the mainland, but nothing that could take down the 3 UD heroes, at least not with all gold depleted. With neither player willing to concede defeat, they both left the game running during the night hoping the other would disconnect. But come morning the UD had come up with an ingenious solution. Can you guess how the UD was able to leave his island prison and claim victory? + Show Spoiler +
as accurately as I can remember it...
painstakingly slowly, he shepherded an enemy unit or creep, from the other side of the map with attacks from his frostwyrm until it was placed on the otherside of the river next to his island where he killed it, leaving a corpse, that he was able to resurrect, using the DK ultimate, as a friendly summoned unit. With that unit in place he was able to use his staff of teleportation to tp across the river to it, then buy a goblin zeppelin and transport the other heroes across, and thus finish the remaining human forces. gg
this is an example of winning, as the other player was afk
this shouldn't be allowed in a fair-play game
just agree no1 can win and concede a draw
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I disagree with the concept of draw.
If it really is a stalemate, then its simply a battle of wills & who wants the win more. Remember, its not the number of wins that makes a good player, but how one plays the game. There is nothing wrong with taking the high road and giving your opponent the win from a tough fought match, I believe this sort of behavior should be encouraged.
If it ain't broke, it shouldn't doesn't need fixing. OP hasn't convincingly proposed a clear purpose from having draw in the first place.
Being in long drawn out stalemates are shortcomings for all players involved. Gracefully quit, or be stubbornly waste hours of everyones time; choice is available.
Conversely I see drawbacks in implementing this feature: recall back in the SC1 days on maps like BGH, it was very common to seeing games ending in allied victories. There was nothing wrong with that, but essentially this option would decrease the tension of the game in unforeseen ways.
Depending on how its implemented, draws are open to abuse; particularly backstabbing, 2v1, 3v1 scenarios.
Keep it simple ; win/loss, draws for mutual disconnects only.
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EPT
