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So I haven't had a lot of time to play the beta, and play in the top 8 of my gold league as Terran. I also watch as many streams and VODS as I can. I've been closely watching the changes to Terran the last few patches that have nerfed bio, and helped mech a bit.
One thing I've been trying to do is use more interesting unit combination. Against Zerg I've been trying Marauder/Hellion/Viking or Thor/Hellion/Banshee and either build can get some Marines added depending how Hellion heavy I want to go. Against Protoss it's usually more of a bio build, but do add Vikings, Banshees, and Hellions depending on what units the Protoss have. I feel like I don't either have the resources to upgrade multiple lines of weapon/armor. Against Zerg I could really use all upgrades, but that just is not practical. Against Protoss I'll just default to bio upgrades, and skip any of the support units.
I guess what I want to discuss is the old SC 1 upgrade model for Terran out of data? Gone are the days where you just go mech vs Protoss, or just go bio (or mech) vs Zerg. Now maybe I'm just doing really dumb builds, and the standard builds will focus on one unit group. But I tend to think that we will be seeing more combination of units than SC 1.
My simple suggestion would be to combine mech and air upgrades to one upgrade. I'd be interested in hearing if other people have more exciting ideas (or if I'm just stupid and nothing should change).
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I've never understood the complaints about this.
"Waah, there are two different upgrades so it's impossible for me to mix units or I will lose".
Does trading a single unit for an additional upgrade REALLY lose the game for you? If so, I think you have bigger problems with your gameplay.
I guess what I'm saying is, and not really directed at you... upgrades are fine. If you feel that you can't sacrifice the production of 1-2 units in favor of an upgrade, then simply hold off on the upgrade. I've never been in a situation, SC/BW/SC2, where I didn't have the resources to upgrade as much as I wanted after ~10 minutes into the game. I suppose if you're rushing with 1-2 Marauders, a Thor, and two Banshees... it may be a problem for you to upgrade. But once you get an expansion up and the game starts to take shape, it's really not.
However, I will say that I think (and it may already be this way) that Vikings should use the highest upgrade level in each form. If you have 2 Air and 1 Ground, your Viking would have 2 Air and 2 Ground. Switching from one form and losing upgrades doesn't make much sense to me for a unit that's supposed to be so versatile. Then again, Blizzard seems to consider Vikings "anti-air with a recycle feature" whereas I consider them "goliaths that are built at a starport and transform from wraiths".
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Well another problem is the armor is 150/100 now instead of 100/50. So even building two of them to get heavy mech or air upgrades is already more expensive than before. And upgrades are for longer macro games, which it doesn't seem like the game hasn't developed a lot to yet (not from my experience, from watching a lot of VODs).
Maybe nothing should change, but now is the time to think about it at least. Are they more restrictive than how the game was played in SC 1? Unless you are just going bio I think they are. Is this a disadvantage over SC 1? I think so, but could be wrong. Does anything need to be change? Maybe, maybe not.
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But every other race has to deal with the same thing don't they?
As zerg, I have to mix melee upgrade and ranged upgrade, also air upgrades are separate.
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On April 10 2010 00:57 OreoBoi wrote:
But every other race has to deal with the same thing don't they?
As zerg, I have to mix melee upgrade and ranged upgrade, also air upgrades are separate.
Carapace is made the most important by how it affects all ground units. terran upgrades affect 3 units at most
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Terran
1) Infantry Weapons
2) Infantry Armor
3) Vehicle Weapons
4) Vehicle Armor
5) Ship Weapons
6) Ship Armor
Zerg
1) Ground Melee
2) Ground Ranged
3) Ground Carapace
4) Air Weapons
5) Air Armor
Protoss
1) Ground Attack
2) Ground Armor
3) Shields
4) Air Attack
5) Air Armor
If Terran had 3+ additional upgrades I could see a complaint, but a single upgrade? Don't see it as a major issue. Although Pokebunny brings up a good point about number of units effected.
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I agree that there seems to be something wrong with number of upgrades for terrans, but that diversity is ok, it's not good enough yet imho.
What i would do is cut upgrade time to 2/3 or more and add Fusion core requirement for L3 up's.
Currently it's to hard to get revelant upgrades when tech switching mid/late game.
Protoss for example can chrono it's air upgreads if P would like to go carriers late game. And zerg has much less upgrades overall.
also i think in addition to ever important infantry upgrades, in TvP and TvT air attack upgrade is veary important.
On April 10 2010 00:49 Sere wrote:
Does trading a single unit for an additional upgrade REALLY lose the game for you? If so, I think you have bigger problems with your gameplay. For me, no but i see time not the cost as a bigger problem. If i have gone ie: bio-viking TvP and late game would like to incorporate mech, it would be L0 and it takes too much time to upgread, same with swiching to air army after bio-mech, or using late game bio with only mech up's.
On April 10 2010 00:57 OreoBoi wrote:
But every other race has to deal with the same thing don't they?
As zerg, I have to mix melee upgrade and ranged upgrade, also air upgrades are separate. Protoss have crono boost and Zerg not only have less upgrades but also they flow better, ground armor works on all ground units (including ultras) and air upgrades are somewheat situational since main zerg air finisher (imbalord  ) strenght lies in broodlings (ground up's) and tactical usage where up's aren't as important (comparing to face to face battle of big late game armies).
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Nah, you're not dumb. In most games I use units from all 3 buildings... Last night I played a 37 minute game vs protoss where I had marauder, hellion, siege tank, vikings, and banshees vs his stalker, speedlot, colossus, obs and it I was scanning to pick off obs and cleaning house w/ banshees.
I had 2-2 on my rax, 2-0 on my port, and 0-0 on my fact. His entire army was 2-1-0.
Zerg isn't too much different than Terran in terms of upgrades, but protoss has every P unit that i actually use lumped in 1 except for pheonix which has its uses. :D
Does trading a single unit for an additional upgrade REALLY lose the game for you?
No, but there is a breaking point in terms of delayed unit production and actual improvement. If you upgrade mech weapons and the only mech you use is 2 siege tanks all game then the 100-100 is not likely going to be worth it unless you do a lot of dmg w/ your tanks i.e. a cliff drop or soemthing. On the other hand spending 100-100 for rax upgrade pays for itself in terms of minerals once you've made 12+ marines or 10+ marauder vs armored or 20+ marauder vs non armored. (i negated gas costs so i wouldn't have to think about it too much.)
If Terran had 3+ additional upgrades I could see a complaint, but a single upgrade? Don't see it as a major issue. Although Pokebunny brings up a good point about number of units effected
Protoss air weapons and armor aren't really viable unless you're in copper massing carriers. Even if you're using pheonix vs muta, you need at least 5 for it to be useful and I've only made 5+ pheonix in a handful of games and each time I end up maknig 5+ they switch out of whatever I made them for once I kill the group they have making the upgrade not necessary.
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i actually think its fine right now. as long as mech sucks vs toss and air sucks vs zerg and bio sucks vs terran its fine.
in tvp u wanna get bio upgrades only, in tvz mech upgrades (i find mech better than bio in tvz since new patch) and tvt air upgrades
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On April 10 2010 01:02 Volshok wrote:
Terran:
1) Infantry Weapons
2) Infantry Armor
3) Vehicle Weapons
4) Vehicle Armor
5) Ship Weapons
6) Ship Armor
Zerg
1) Ground Melee
2) Ground Ranged
3) Ground Carapace
4) Air Weapons
5) Air Armor
Protoss
1) Ground Attack
2) Ground Armor
3) Shields
4) Air Attack
5) Air Armor
If Terran had 3+ additional upgrades I could see a complaint, but a single upgrade? Don't see it as a major issue. Although Pokebunny brings up a good point about number of units effected.
Number of units affected;
Terran:
1) Infantry Weapons - Four units (Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost)
2) Infantry Armor - Five units (Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost, SCV)
3) Vehicle Weapons - Four units (Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking)
4) Vehicle Armor - Four units (Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking)
5) Ship Weapons - Three units (Viking, Banshee, Battlecruiser)
6) Ship Armor - Five units (Viking, Medivac,Banshee, Raven, Battlecruiser)
Zerg
1) Ground Melee - Four units (Zergling, Baneling, Broodling, Ultralisk)
2) Ground Ranged - Four units (Queen, Roach, Hydralisk, Infested Terran)
3) Ground Carapace - Ten units (Drone, Queen, Zergling, Baneling, Roach, Hydralisk, Infestor, Broodling, Infested Terran, Ultralisk)
4) Air Weapons - Three units (Mutalisk, Corruptor, Broodlord)
5) Air Armor - Five untis (Overlord, Overseer, Mutalisk, Corruptor, Broodlord)
Protoss
1) Ground Attack - Seven units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, Immortal, Colossus, Dark Templar, Archon)
2) Ground Armor - Nine units (Probe, Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, Immortal, Colossus,High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon)
3) Shields - Everything
4) Air Attack - Four units (Pheonix, Void Ray, Carrier, Mothership)
5) Air Armor - Seven units (Pheonix, Void Ray, Warp Prism, Carrier, Interceptor, Mothership, Observer)
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Keep in mind also that Z carapace is 150% as expensive as T non-ship-plating (and in most cases ship plating is the least useful T upgrade) upgrades and P shields are ... twice? (not sure on the actual amount) ... as expensive.
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Just as the poster above proved. The problem isn't the amount of upgrades its the usefulness of each upgrade. I think it would be prudent merge both vehicle armor and ship armor, anything other then that I would feel is a little unbalanced.
One of the posters mentioned that whats the harm in stopping a production of 2-3 units in favor of an upgrade? The problem is that both zerg and protoss DONT have to halt those 2-3 units for their upgrade, making it slightly unfavorable to have a wide diversity of units.
I believe this isn't a very key unbalance but I do feel it needs addressing.
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IMO, protoss ground attack upgrades need to be made more expensive. It's the best upgrade, ever. Dirt cheap too.
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On April 10 2010 01:13 MorroW wrote:
i actually think its fine right now. as long as mech sucks vs toss and air sucks vs zerg and bio sucks vs terran its fine.
in tvp u wanna get bio upgrades only, in tvz mech upgrades (i find mech better than bio in tvz since new patch) and tvt air upgrades
I agee that it's fine now , but it would be nice to have more options to tech-swich each game.
Also in bio TvP +1 or even +2 air attcak is very good for vikings (vs Collosi), especially since they use this upgread in ground mode to. Making them good late game harrasment unit (+2 vikings kill probes/stuff preatty fast)
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Think you guys are missing the other aspect of this debate, the timings behind the upgrades. I am betting most players in SC2 rarely think about when an upgrade will benefit them more and when X more of some units will benefit them more.
Number of units being affected by said upgrades can be a bit misleading.
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On April 10 2010 01:41 Nao wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:13 MorroW wrote:
i actually think its fine right now. as long as mech sucks vs toss and air sucks vs zerg and bio sucks vs terran its fine.
in tvp u wanna get bio upgrades only, in tvz mech upgrades (i find mech better than bio in tvz since new patch) and tvt air upgrades I agee that it's fine now , but it would be nice to have more options to tech-swich each game.
ye thats true and i agree the best solution to fix this would be as this guy said. this is what i thought when i first saw the topic
On April 10 2010 01:28 Diaspora wrote:
I think it would be prudent merge both vehicle armor and ship armor, anything other then that I would feel is a little unbalanced.
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What Upgrades do is make it inefficient to switch strategies rapidly in the late game.
The paths are
Protoss
Ground upgrades
v.
Air upgrades
Most flexible (one upgrade covers both)
Zerg
Ranged
v.
Melee
v.
Air
One upgrade covers both Ranged and Melee, and the Brood lords use the Melee upgrades as well.
Also Zerg usually mix Ranged and Melee, at least early on (since lings are necessary)
Terran
Infantry
v.
Mech
v.
Air
No overlap, and terrans often start with Infantry and only get some mech for support. Meaning a Terran will often not have the advanced upgrades for mech.
All this means is that Terrans tend to be more focused on Infantry unless they decide to get an Armory to go Mech.
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EPT
