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Karas
United States230 Posts
However, if they do need a bit of a buff, the first one on the list would be to make them massive. It doesn't change the counters against them...it makes them immune to the phoenix beam and the maurader slow. The slow is the big one to me, this enhances the archons ability to get into the fight and tank easier against terran armies. Thoughts? | ||
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
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pheer
5390 Posts
even after reading the entire OP, I thought he still meant make them HUGE visually. Give them "buff"! :p | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
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uhlyk
Slovakia36 Posts
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
On March 12 2010 23:58 uhlyk wrote: massive units can be shoot air to air... so it is no good for archon .) Uhh... no it doesnt mean that. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On March 12 2010 23:58 uhlyk wrote: massive units can be shoot air to air... so it is no good for archon .) Besides the Colossus, the Thor is also a massive type unit but it cannot be hit by air attacks. | ||
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:03 Plexa wrote: Archons should have a place vs Zerg, and for that they need splash to be a really effective unit. I mean, why bother with an Archon when you can have a colossus for less gas? Because the colossus can not hit air and you can take two low hp, low mana templars and put them into a full hp Archon. | ||
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YoureFired
United States822 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
Immortals tank better Colossus (and storm, of course) deal splash better (this was always the case). So if you look at it this way, archons are rather useless. But they are an interesting unit because they are able to both deal splash and tank, which is a great combo: now they just need to be better at it. Having the archon as a unit that everyone only gets when their templar are depleted is a horrible fate for the most badass unit in the game. My reasoning is that if they did it for the nuke, they can do it for the archon too. One idea might be to make the archon a crazy powerhouse unit like the reaver (which currently neither the colossus nor the immortal is) which deals powerful blasts of a small/medium AoE with a slow cooldown, so when it hits, it hits hard but slowly. Another idea might be to give the archon crazy bonus vs buildings which gives it a role that is separate from the HT which cannot attack buildings and because the protoss have no unit with bonus vs buildings (terrans have reapers, zerg have banelings/ultras (still?)) Or lastly, a cool new ability or upgrade that makes them nasty. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
I dont like their new look.. Why do they need armor in a giant ball of energy.. I mean they have only 10hp.. Make them mysterious and unique.. This pic reminds me of them: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2614693229_72a1203034.jpg Now it looks like something from WoW.. | ||
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nixi
Sweden39 Posts
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
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Gnaix
United States438 Posts
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iounas
409 Posts
14.2 damage per sec.. Zealot has 13.3.. Old archon had 23.5 dps ...Stalker with only 5.5dps.. No wonder they suck so much.. | ||
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za1ko
Sweden8 Posts
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Etherone
United States1898 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:53 Gnaix wrote: actually you can form archons with dts, so they're not as gas intensive as you might think 250 gas is very gas intensive. it's still more gas than a colossus and paying 250/250 is worse than paying 100/300. they need their splash back, they are pretty useless units right now. | ||
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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member1987
141 Posts
I agree that they currently are underused and are even better off getting removed from SC2 altogether. If Blizzard doesn't bump them up, I can't see them being used ever. | ||
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Irrelevant
United States2364 Posts
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
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DoomBacon
United States165 Posts
I think they still have value in a PvZ army because of the fact that they demolish lings and mutas and serve as a pretty effective wall from the brood lords broodling spawns. Not the best unit ever vs a hydra heavy army but realistically HTs destroy hydralisks so you should be teching to that point anyway. They are not terribly useful vs terran (other than to have on the opposite side of your concave of the templar to try and bait excess EMPs) but really does every unit have to be useful all the time? I say no because if they were it would make scouting worthless since is doesn't matter what he's doing since my army is always effective vs everything forever thus diluting the crap out of the game. | ||
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
It seems that archons are being severely infringed upon. Immortals tank better Colossus (and storm, of course) deal splash better (this was always the case). So if you look at it this way, archons are rather useless. Think so too right now. Your conclusion of making the Archon better vs some unit types like Marauder would make him a real choice in the game and thats what blizz want. Zerg should also get one unit to avoid the marauder fire. | ||
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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zLnoEk
United States95 Posts
Felt like his archons tore through my army pretty easily though, or maybe i just didn't have enough units, but yea. | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:50 Slunk wrote: Splash is pretty useless now, I think. Even in BW the splash only really worked against mutalisks. Without muta stack it seems much less significant to have splash. So in this regard, archons still are good as damage dealers against zerglings and zealots. The problem is, the archon's tasks are not a threat anymore -- zerglings are rarely used because they suck and PvP does not go this far. You obviously cannot give them enough splash to rape spread out mutalisks. ..you're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding. I also find the rest of the post equally as hilarious. But it would be nice to give the archons some kind of snazzy change | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
P.S. give them back some splash. | ||
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Jandos
Czech Republic928 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:08 lolaloc wrote: Besides the Colossus, the Thor is also a massive type unit but it cannot be hit by air attacks. Yeah and i would like to know why ? They are even bigger than Colossus ;] | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:03 Plexa wrote: Archons should have a place vs Zerg, and for that they need splash to be a really effective unit. I mean, why bother with an Archon when you can have a colossus for less gas? And psistorm rapes so bad now that I just save my templar and let them recharge. | ||
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
I think they wanted to make Archons purely a recycle ability for the HT. After you use the HT's abilities, instead of waiting around while it slowly regains energy, you can make an Archon. I don't think they want the Archon itself to be a unit you can just straight up build from HTs and be worth-while without ever using the HTs abilities first. With that being said, I wouldn't mind Archons being better. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On March 13 2010 03:20 CowGoMoo wrote: Archons attack super slow compared to SCBW Archons and they deal less splash. I think they wanted to make Archons purely a recycle ability for the HT. After you use the HT's abilities, instead of waiting around while it slowly regains energy, you can make an Archon. I don't think they want the Archon itself to be a unit you can just straight up build from HTs and be worth-while without ever using the HTs abilities first. With that being said, I wouldn't mind Archons being better. I don't get that position. It's saying two things to me: 1. Let's take a choice out of the game; 2. Templar aren't good enough alone so they need some followup. They should fix both units so these issues go away! | ||
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RyanS
United States620 Posts
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On March 13 2010 03:57 Dr.Frost wrote: Its hilarious that people think that archons don't have splash. Lol. They do very much have splash damage. As a Zerg player I deal with it all the time. Their splash melts 3-4 lings in one hit. Especially once upgraded. Well, for starters the attack animation looks fucking retarded and you can't even tell it's splashing. Secondly, collosus destroy lines of lings so archon is still worse. Thirdly, the problem with the archon is that it does not hard counter muta anymore. Fuck it doesn't even soft counter them, because muta don't stack close together it hits maybe 1 or 2 mutas. Since lings are very close and small units (like 3 of them are the size of 1 muta) it's obvious that the splash radius needs to be increased or something needs to be changed. but anyways, BoT. So archons are psyonic bio units or what? And I'm pretty fucking sure I've had my ultras slowed by marauders, so I think you might be wrong. I don't see a problem with them being changed to massive, and I'm all for increasing their splash radius to even the size of a storm because the way units unstack automatically in this game is almost as abusive as how you could stack them in scbw. AND PLEASE BLIZZARD, GIVE THEM BACK THE BALL AT THE END OF LIGHTNING ANIMATION >.< ![[image loading]](http://medievalyfantasia.com/uploads/cartas-magic/primeros-sets/the-dark/cartas-rojas/ball-lightning-carta-magic.jpg) Another option though, would be to give the phoenix back some kind of overdrive ability as an upgrade perhaps. But I can see why it was removed, if you just have 2-3 pheonix and attack with ur army plus collosus it's pretty unstoppable. So maybe make the ability only hit vs light air units? So things like corruptors/vikings can still counter collosus. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
Like if they gave him a ground based version of overload. Or maelstrom. They could probably put those abilities as upgrades at the dark tribunal, since that building serves no purpose other than dark templar. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
maybe 2 infestors after using fungal growth a bunch of times could be merged together to make a unit with 400 health and 20 attack to single unit (= sc1 ultralisk) within a span short enough so that it can contribute to that very same battle. thoughts? | ||
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
On March 13 2010 03:37 Chill wrote: I don't get that position. It's saying two things to me: 1. Let's take a choice out of the game; 2. Templar aren't good enough alone so they need some followup. They should fix both units so these issues go away! That's just my guess. Also could have been nerfed for balance reasons/encourage players to use the other tech routes. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I dont' see the point of making the massive other than so that they can't be lifted. I'm pretty damn sure Maruader slow works on all units...even massive. | ||
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Sere
158 Posts
On March 12 2010 23:56 pheer wrote: Oh lol even after reading the entire OP, I thought he still meant make them HUGE visually. Give them "buff"! :p I would love to have Archons the size of a Thor. And give them an aura that damages anything near it every second. Also, make them pink. | ||
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VTArlock
United States1763 Posts
Yeah, they dont have splash, no they arnt as good... but when your out of energy with 2/4 temps and your 3-4 zeals need some backup against a few muta when your pushing the expo and almost won the game, I dont think you'll be complaining about the high gas cost and bonus damage to bio... | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On March 13 2010 01:31 blahman3344 wrote: at this rate, archons in sc2 will become like the scouts of sc1 =( You mean the beta SC1 scouts, which had such a fast attack rate they were one of the strongest units in the game?  | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
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Retsukage
United States1002 Posts
On March 13 2010 05:46 GhostFall wrote: Back when it was called the Twilight Archon, I thought they were going to give the archon some dark templar abilities on top of being the massive blue ball. Like if they gave him a ground based version of overload. Or maelstrom. They could probably put those abilities as upgrades at the dark tribunal, since that building serves no purpose other than dark templar. I like this idea | ||
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VTArlock
United States1763 Posts
On March 13 2010 05:46 GhostFall wrote: Back when it was called the Twilight Archon, I thought they were going to give the archon some dark templar abilities on top of being the massive blue ball. Like if they gave him a ground based version of overload. Or maelstrom. They could probably put those abilities as upgrades at the dark tribunal, since that building serves no purpose other than dark templar. +1 for your idea doesn't it seem retarted that you need to make both the twilight council for just HT and the dark tribunal for just darks? | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
On March 13 2010 08:11 WWJDD wrote: But with the way that units stack much closer than in SC1, won't that make them OP and imbalance the PvZ matchup?? It's actually the other way around. As far as I know, people want the archon closer to it's original form, and thus being mainly a mutalisk counter. In sc1 it had a bigger splash and muta's were basicly right on top of eachother. In sc1 it has a smaller splash and muta's are always spread out. It could help protoss out with the AA, but at the same time, archon splash + colossus may be a bit over the top, so I have mixed feelings about it | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
Dark templar is more useful than archon already so it will be used if you cant get your 2 ht to safety to recharge but if that is the case it will die before it morphs.. Its a shame.. I think archon was one of the coolest units.. Q. It was previously mentioned that the balance team feels Archons were underused. Is this still the case? A. The Archon is intended to be a unit you can use when your High Templar run out of energy. It is not meant in StarCraft II to be a core counter to a variety of threats. Currently it is functioning reasonably well in that role but we are always looking for additional data that will prove our assumptions wrong. | ||
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uhlyk
Slovakia36 Posts
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LF9
United States537 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:53 Gnaix wrote: actually you can form archons with dts, so they're not as gas intensive as you might think In this case you would have to follow a different tech route. This actually isn't much of a problem, though, because now Templars are just as gimpy as Archons are. It's probably honestly better to go DT and see what you can do, and once mass detection renders them useless, scrap them into Archons for the hell of it, I don't know. Protoss has a lot of issues to work out now that Warp Gates have been sorted and we are seeing people playing core Protoss instead of cheese WG rushes. Archons suck, High Templars don't do as much damage as they should, Phoenixes have trouble countering air, the list goes on. Not to say that Protoss is terribly weak, just that their units need attention and tweaking because right now you would be hard-pressed to name an actual counter to every Z and T unit - Blizzard didn't pay enough attention and forgot to give P counters to a few units on each side and now that Warp Gate rushes aren't unstoppable, we are seeing Protoss fighting on a level playing field and struggling. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On March 13 2010 08:28 FictionJV wrote: It's actually the other way around. As far as I know, people want the archon closer to it's original form, and thus being mainly a mutalisk counter. In sc1 it had a bigger splash and muta's were basicly right on top of eachother. In sc It could help protoss out with the AA, but at the same time, archon splash + colossus may be a bit over the top, so I have mixed feelings about it edit: fix? | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:50 Slunk wrote: Splash is pretty useless now, I think. Even in BW the splash only really worked against mutalisks. Without muta stack it seems much less significant to have splash. So in this regard, archons still are good as damage dealers against zerglings and zealots. The problem is, the archon's tasks are not a threat anymore -- zerglings are rarely used because they suck and PvP does not go this far. You obviously cannot give them enough splash to rape spread out mutalisks. Have you not played PvZ at all? Zerglings are used all the time. Speedlings are used heavily in tons of my PvZ matches. In BW archons were a huge part of playing protoss versus a zerg going ultra/ling. I don't see why you think it only works against mutas... archons demolished zerglings. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On March 13 2010 05:46 GhostFall wrote: Back when it was called the Twilight Archon, I thought they were going to give the archon some dark templar abilities on top of being the massive blue ball. Like if they gave him a ground based version of overload. Or maelstrom. They could probably put those abilities as upgrades at the dark tribunal, since that building serves no purpose other than dark templar. If they left the damage/splash/health/etc where they are and gave archons maelstrom I think I would jizz my pants and play SC2 for like 24 hours straight | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
I think if it was increased to 4 (1 more than roach's) it would make them worthwhile, not just in the case of HT running out of juice but for timing pushes as well. I mean, 2 range and no splash? They are just meat shields. Very, very expensive meat shields. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:53 Gnaix wrote: Archons suck, High Templars don't do as much damage as they should, Phoenixes have trouble countering air, the list goes on. You forgot the worst: stalker | ||
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Iaaan
Canada578 Posts
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DaEm0niCuS
United States60 Posts
1. why would u morph your templars into archons when you can simply wait to gain more energy? why make a useless unit instead. 2. Storm cool-down is 10 seconds, so if u have 150 mana your going to be able to use your templar through the entire battle. 3. Battles are pretty short, if you win your not going to need archons, and if you lose your archons will be dead before they even get created. 4. Have you seen archon vs ultra? in bw they were pretty much even, in sc2 the ultra rapes the archon and it still has like 300 life left. Archons should be a unit that you make when you have excess gas, or when you want to counter muta etc. BW had sairs, temps, archon to counter muta, in sc2 storm is not effective cause muta can dodge it very easily, archons simply suck, and phoenix's cannot beat mass muta. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On March 13 2010 01:00 iounas wrote: ...Stalker with only 5.5dps.. No wonder they suck so much.. That is still more than the old dragoons... Since you don't count the + damage you shouldn't count the goons + damage either, if you average over with and without the + damage they deal roughly the same dps. | ||
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DaEm0niCuS
United States60 Posts
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
I would actually prefer Stalker's having blink immediatly or it being lower in the tech tree (cybercore for example). Reasons? People are complaining about attack-moving to much, but at the same time they neglect trying to use blink more, and just ask for a dmg-buff, seems pretty silly to me. I'm still convinced that the stalker good be a good unit micro'd properly with blink (as a harassing units up cliffs, abusing their range + blink vs roaches, etc). But the place in the tech-tree of blink kinda prevents thet from happening and then the robo-bay tech being so good so that the templar archives are even less likely to be taken, and if you do get them, by that time the blink is outclassed by other things. Together with why I think it should be cybercore tech: Let's compare the dragoon to the stalker: Equal to eachother in terms of min/gas/supply/etc (except for building time with warpgates ofcourse) Dragoon 100hp - stalker 80hp Dragoon 10dmg + 10 vs armored (for people who don't know how the sc1 mechanics work), stalker 8dmg + 8 vs armored Dragoon 4 range (+2 research) , stalker: 6 If we look at these stats and just take some balancing "rules" you can make up some quick conclusions: It has lost some dmg, but instead gained extra range without having to research it For getting blink it has lost some HP. So it has the extra range, and therefore put the blink (together with all the other reasons) in the place of the range upgrade that used to be at the cybercore. Or keep blink where it is now in the techtree, but give it some of it's Hp back, since with the lower Hp and without blink it has trouble holding it's own. On terms of dmg, I don't think that it should get extra dmg right off the bat, I would first of all like to see what would happen if you would put blink lower in the techtree. But give it +2 for each upgrade just like it's older brother had, so it keeps the dmg relevant even if the game gets to mid/lategame. For the rest, stop expecting the stalker to be some sort a-move protoss roach equivalent and whine for more dmg, but instead (if you really feel that it needs buffs) think of better ways to buff it instead of "give it more dmg" because tbh, sc2 already has enough units that do tons of dmg. (disclaimer: these are my ideas IF stalkers would need a buff, wether or not they need it, i'm not gonna go into because my experience with the stalker is only from vsAI and replays) | ||
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DarkOne
Spain41 Posts
On March 13 2010 00:32 iounas wrote: I dont like their new look.. Why do they need armor in a giant ball of energy.. I mean they have only 10hp.. Make them mysterious and unique.. I've always thought like that since I first saw the new archons. Why the need for armour? They dont need that! I prefer the SC1 light alien inside ball of power than the new armoured (again, why?) archon. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
More range, more damage, more hp, new abilities.....anything....just hope blizzard hears the player's pleas.. | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
In that case, what about making Archons stronger but make it so only HT with 150+ (arbitrary number) energy could morph into one? | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 14 2010 08:56 FictionJV wrote: I'm still convinced that the stalker good be a good unit micro'd properly with blink (as a harassing units up cliffs, abusing their range + blink vs roaches, etc). But the place in the tech-tree of blink kinda prevents thet from happening and then the robo-bay tech being so good so that the templar archives are even less likely to be taken, and if you do get them, by that time the blink is outclassed by other things. I dont think blink helps that unit that much.. Maybe really early in low numbers but anything later and blink is useless.. Blink isnt worth researching because the unit is simply not good enough.. When 2 armies clash blink wont help you with anything.. It has 10 sec cooldown and need vision so you cant use it like reapers up cliffs. Stalker is not really cost effective against anything. Immortal is a better choice. Stalker should be a roach counter but roaches win that battle cost effectively.. Its damage is 8+6 | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
Blizzard specifically said they want the archon to be something to morph into when you run out of energy, your suggestion is the complete opposite of that, so that won't happen. About the stalker, as far as I know the unit is portrayed as a Hit and Run unit, a bit like the reaper for the terran. Maybe use it that way (and blink would help) instead of using it as a roach frontline fighter equivalent? (If blizzard wanted to have a dragoon copy, they would just have called it a dragoon and gave it the same stats, the thing is that seeing the changes they made they have/had another purpose/role in mind for the stalker then the dragoon had, and what the people want the stalker to be) | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heVp5vE2KFI As for archons as this topic is about you do know they had pretty short range in SC1 as well, the main difference was they had effective AoE. (Do they have AoE in SC2? If they do it's pitiful) | ||
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onewingedmoogle
Canada434 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
On March 14 2010 18:32 FictionJV wrote: Needing to have 150+ energy on the HT to morph. Blizzard specifically said they want the archon to be something to morph into when you run out of energy, your suggestion is the complete opposite of that, so that won't happen. Well, that was kind of my point. You either accept Blizzard idea or you could ask for buffs but then you must expect some tradeoffs. I'm personally perfectly fine with the current archon as it is. | ||
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