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Is anyone else annoyed by the fact that units coming out of a building and towards a rally point are issued an attack-move instead of a move to the rally?
I've found it troublesome in games where the enemy is in my base and I'm trying to clump up a small army of new units in the opposite end of my base to mount up a counter-attack. Instead of the units running to the rest of the pack, once they pop out of the building and their is an enemy nearby they instantly start returning fire instead of going to the rally.
If there is an option to turn this off that I'm unaware of, then by all means inform me. 
Edit: For any Blizzard employees lurking the forums, here's probably the best solution to this..
On March 07 2010 12:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:
There should simply be an option to rally with either attack move or regular move (or patrol). I.E: select gateway, press move - unit will rally-move. Select gateway, press P - unit will patro-rally. And so on.
Edit 2: Added CharlieMurphy's polls..
Poll: Do you like attack rallies?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): HELL NO WTF WERE YOU THINKING?
Poll: What should be done about them?
(Vote): Make a toggle for Attack/Move commands
(Vote): Make them only Move command (like scbw)
(Vote): Other
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There is an option you could explore. Sadly,that option is to increase your micro macro and manually move the units.
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The feature definitely causes frustrating instances but I think it's quite convenient, especially when rallying at natural or somewhere a fair distance away from the producing building.
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I find this isn't as annoying when I am zerg in my games, but If I watch a terran livestream I can easily see the frustration.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Am i the only person not bothered by this lol? It's saved my ass (and drones) countless times.
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Australia7069 Posts
its funny when you're being pretty lazy, doing a 2 gate proxy rush or something, and your enemy has one scv just baiting the zealots out as they come out of the gateways. You're microing away, going WHERE ARE MY ZEALOTS OMG OMG and they're running around in circles chasing as scv lollll
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Sweden33719 Posts
There should simply be an option to rally with either attack move or regular move (or patrol). I.E: select gateway, press move - unit will rally-move. Select gateway, press P - unit will patro-rally. And so on.
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On March 07 2010 12:18 Kiante wrote:
its funny when you're being pretty lazy, doing a 2 gate proxy rush or something, and your enemy has one scv just baiting the zealots out as they come out of the gateways. You're microing away, going WHERE ARE MY ZEALOTS OMG OMG and they're running around in circles chasing as scv lollll
thats so awesome xD
lol thats what you get you cheesy bastard
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In sc it was annoying to forget a rally and lose units, or allow free hits on them etc because it was a move command.
I think the moral of the story is pay attention to your units and they won't do things you don't like
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Yes this annoys me... if they insist on having a-move as the default for rally point then please at least give me the option to change it to move as the nondefault option
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It annoys me partially because it's such a noob-friendly mechanic.
If you want to do a proxy gate rush in sc2 you can just rally your gates in the enemy base, select them all and spam Z for a couple minutes. Insert some micro every once in a while for added effect!
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On March 07 2010 12:10 kineSiS- wrote:
There is an option you could explore. Sadly,that option is to increase your micro macro and manually move the units.
On March 07 2010 12:24 floor exercise wrote:
In sc it was annoying to forget a rally and lose units, or allow free hits on them etc because it was a move command.
I think the moral of the story is pay attention to your units and they won't do things you don't like
That's not the point. I do watch my buildings, but even for that split second they pop out they'll attack back and take back damage right before I tell them to move manually. That's an extra hit or more by the enemy on my new unit that makes a big difference.
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United States3824 Posts
You should be able to do both!
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United States3824 Posts
Shift Rally! End the debate once and for all!
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On March 07 2010 12:16 Kennigit wrote:
Am i the only person not bothered by this lol? It's saved my ass (and drones) countless times.
Well, yea I don't deny that it has helped me in some cases, but for the most part I think it would be best to leave it like original SC, or as others have stated, have an option to change it. I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to add.
On March 07 2010 12:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:
There should simply be an option to rally with either attack move or regular move (or patrol). I.E: select gateway, press move - unit will rally-move. Select gateway, press P - unit will patro-rally. And so on.
That's probably the best solution I can think of, too. Simple and intuitive.
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I agree it can be annoying, to me both have their pros and cons so I guess an option would be the best.. option. But personally I am ok with it because either way to me it falls under the domain of unit control
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Doesnt shift rally add waypoints to your rally? at least in wc3 it did.
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I agree that there needs to be an option to patrol-rally versus move-rally. Zergs already have two different rallys per hatchery, we should just increase this to three.
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I definitely agree that there should be an option of whether to attack move or just move. I don't want distracting reinforcement lines with a probe to be a viable strategy.
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just learned about this thanks but i think its great and having 2 options would be quite weird imo.
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When I scout, my worker is always autoattacking.. Is there any way to make him not to? Same thing happends with my units. And it's a problem when I'm simply trying to apply pressure, my units start attacking and die. Might be worth telling that I have fairly good mechanics, I'm not losing them cuz I'm sloppy. I need to click A LOT for them to not attack. 1-2 clicks should be sufficent.
Thanks
/jOlly@europe
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This topic seems really frustrating to me.
Seems like the same people who complain that "there's no micro" are the same people who complain about things like this when they actually have to *gasp* micro more!
It just means you have to pay attention to where you are sending your rallies and make sure you don't do anything stupid with your rally points.
Shouldn't people be glad that this is another place where the skilled players will be able to show that they have better control? You can't want the game to be harder AND easier at the same time...even though it seems like a lot of people do.
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Thanks, but the reason I bumped this thread was because I can't micro, my units want to auto-attack. Btw, I'm really new at at SC2, there might be a simple solution. I just haven't found it yet ;p
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People have constantly been complaining there isn't enough micro in sc2...well there you go, for all the pros that want it, you got it. Your 'micro' (or frustrating bad ui mechanics for the majority) from sc1 are here for you so you can feel mighty with that huge apm.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On March 07 2010 12:30 -orb- wrote:
It annoys me partially because it's such a noob-friendly mechanic.
If you want to do a proxy gate rush in sc2 you can just rally your gates in the enemy base, select them all and spam Z for a couple minutes. Insert some micro every once in a while for added effect!
How is that different from SC1
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I don't mind the auto-attacking rally points... but I really saw the shittiness that is that select target to attack = A-move... Guy had set up tanks outside cannons with marines, I was trying to pick off with carriers, but they kept just A-moving into the whole mess. Really hope they fix that!
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I mean, couldn't you disrupt their entire reinforcements line with just one unit then? If they auto attack, a good player could bait all their reinforcements with a single unit leading them away from the battle. Woot, new micro possibilities.
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Yeah I can't stand this to be honest. I've really only lost maybe 1-2 games because of this annoyance out of like 600, but it's still lame.
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I actually like that my zerglings start following the enemy scout as soon as they hatch. It is a good feature in general.
Like think of ZvZ in BW. Oftentimes if your opponent pooled early and you had to micro your drones against some zerglings while yout lings were hatching, it was pretty damn annoying if you had to stop microing your drones and select those zerglings, so they don't blindly run to the rally point while your drones die because they unstacked.
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Havnt had issues with it but what I hate is when your units are being followed and attacked after a lost battle, they constantly turn around...
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this can be quite bothering when u r under attack in ur main base, like if a zealot stands and is attacking ur rax and ur rine pops, u obviously wanna run away to ur mineral line but instead it starts attacking the zealot. even if u click it to move away the zealot still has enough time to get 1 attack off.
i hope they do some kind of stuff as OP said, to give u some options on what u really wanna do with ur units come out.
i think most logical solution would be that a simple right click means move, or R (rally point). and an A (attackmove means) means attack-move.
so if u wanna rally 3 raxes with attack move then u just select the 3 raxes click a then click on the ground and if u just wanna standard rally u click on the ground or R first if u like.
also it would be able to get a little more complex with the que-rally aka custom rally with many destinations it would be possible for example to have a move rally to outside ur natural for example and then set an a-move rally to ur opponent. so u select ur raxes right click on ur natural then hit a and shift and then click on ur opponents base. basically saying the rally points should have same que-up features with rally point as a standard unit like marine or so
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This is the worst feature ever! How can anyone like that?
I was getting zealotrushed as a zerg. He was attacking my expansion while i built zerglings. I set the rallypoints between my 2 hatcheries in order to collect zerglings until I have enough to attack the zealots. Great idea?
The zerlings at my expansion attacked the zealots as soon as they spawned so they died immediately to 2 zealots and a probe and i could not accumulate them. To prevent this I have to be at my expansion in that second they spawn and have to manually move them away which is also very frustrating because while running away they get hit and want to fight again T_T
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I hate this feature. There have been times where there were maybe a dozen marines or half a dozen zealots right next to my natural hatch. And my zerglings hatch piecemeal and run right into the ball. If I could have just saved up 15 or so, then I would have been able to fight it off with no real losses.
It's fucking irritating because you can't catch these things before they run into marine fire, they are just too fast. You can't even rally the eggs without them attacking. The only thing you can do is select all eggs and spam right click where you want them to go. I would literally say this has cost me 5 or 6 games out of my 70 or so, needlessly.
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it's annoying but like others have said all you have to do is micro your units. most of the time what I do is set my rally point a short distance away from the production building so that the units move away from my hatch when they are made and then from there I manually select them and click them to whereever I want my ball of units to be.
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I feel there are two valid sides of this feature. You guys keep complaining about scenarios where units are attacking your base and you cant re-mobilize.
That's fine, but my frustration towards this feature is that it makes the game yet another "make-this-game-more-simple-than-sc1-in-a-wc3-modified-way"-thing which I can agree is annoying.
But I must withhold the fact that from previous experience I've been even more annoyed and frustrated in sc1 when I was under attack and had NO rally point what so ever, but my units still froze for 0.5 seconds or so which made it impossible to kill few units (ie lings) who had a pretty fast attack-speed. (Without using scv's that is)
My point being (for clarification..) both ways have its perks which makes FA's suggestion the best so far.
Furthermore this whole thread seems a little bit picky tbh, since games wont be decided by annoying rally points in a larger degree than they will save you and it is probably just about getting used to rather than anything else.
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The stuff about units turning to attack when you tell them to just move is so freakingly annoying. I have lost like 5 or more marauders in one match just because of it..
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Yep. Same here. But I lost meaningfull hits with my zealots in a proxy rush vs Zerg.. eventually two roaches came out and impossible to hunt them down.. You tell your zealots to run on the left side to try to surrounder him but they start attacking buildings.. Very bad move from Blizzard imo.
I'd say remove both things! A rally point is a rally point and that is where you want your unit to go once spawned/built. A right click is a right click where you tell your unit where you want him! Not to attack everything in that direction.
I just don't see the logic of this, surely two bugs.
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On March 24 2010 22:01 DaZe wrote:
That's fine, but my frustration towards this feature is that it makes the game yet another "make-this-game-more-simple-than-sc1-in-a-wc3-modified-way"-thing which I can agree is annoying.
Care to explain how so considering that this feature isn't in WC3?
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I agree with Day[9] that this isn't a feature to complain about, just to be aware of and to plan for.
There are scenarios where either scheme is a disadvantage, you just have to be ready in either case.
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..if they change it to just 'move' and not 'a-move' then you might find your SCVs/Probes/drones all clumped into the minerals as well. no?
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You guys are always looking to make macro harder, so why not manually grab the units as they leave the buildings and auto-move them yourselves if this is such a big deal?
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I have an idea guys. Pay attention to your units.
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this makes bunker rush in range of your nat hat super hard to deal with. even someone with fast micro will only be able to save one zergling with half health from each egg.
you really need to save larvae, then time the attack with the rest of your forces to coincide when the eggs at your nat all hatch at once. which is dumb.
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Overall I prefer it to sc1's system. It's nice that units pop out shooting when there are enemies running around in my base.
I'm annoyed that you can't use "r" to set rally points though. I still keep hitting r....
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United States12235 Posts
It actually works against you when you have enemy units in your base. The best thing you can do is rally away from the enemy and re-engage when you have enough forces to fight back, but with auto-attack-move rally points, your units will always pop out and attack the enemy immediately. This causes the enemy forces to retaliate and you can never build up enough forces to push them out. I'd like a move-only rally point instead, or even an option to choose =/
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On March 25 2010 08:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:
It actually works against you when you have enemy units in your base. The best thing you can do is rally away from the enemy and re-engage when you have enough forces to fight back, but with auto-attack-move rally points, your units will always pop out and attack the enemy immediately. This causes the enemy forces to retaliate and you can never build up enough forces to push them out. I'd like a move-only rally point instead, or even an option to choose =/
this.
being able to launch a counter attack in your own base is super important, especially when it comes to dealing with aggression early game.
"Whats that? you were microing your queen when the zerglings hatched? Well that's too bad because they are ALL dead now."
in the end it probably just takes some getting used to, and it might be a good feature to have.
but as a broodwar player and as a zerg player its fucking annoying and gonna take some getting used to.
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On March 07 2010 12:30 -orb- wrote:
It annoys me partially because it's such a noob-friendly mechanic.
If you want to do a proxy gate rush in sc2 you can just rally your gates in the enemy base, select them all and spam Z for a couple minutes. Insert some micro every once in a while for added effect!
Those players lose.
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This thread needs a poll soooooooo badly so blizzard can correct the error of their ways.
Plz update op
Poll: Do you like attack rallies?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): HELL NO WTF WERE YOU THINKING?
Poll: What should be done about them?
(Vote): Make a toggle for Attack/Move commands
(Vote): Make them only Move command (like scbw)
(Vote): Other
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Chance are if you need to do this you are looking in your base and have nothing else to really micro soo ya /shrug
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Attack rally may be good for games like WC3, where you have 1 crappy army and you rally all your units to that hero and army which is constantly running around the map creeping and doing stupid shit. Where one more unit being added is hotkeyed to your group and is almost always better to be attack moving across the map. Rallying across the map is not as coming in sc, usually what people do is just rally another force in a pile outside their base or to a safer place. This is not because they think the units might die en route to their first army, but because in sc a few more units added to your army in the middle of a battle isn' as pivitol or valuable as it is in wc3, they might even show up and you have nothing left and they just die.
And also, in wc3 units have more hp and slower DPS in general, so 1 slight delay or shot isn't as vital as the lesser hp higher dps units in SC2.
In a game like sc2 or scbw, you often find yourself in defenders situations and you are on the verge of losing a vital building or dying outright. You need to collect some units before you can make a last attempt to engage and make a comeback. Not only is this very crucial to defending it adds more depth to the game by giving a tool to a defender, but it also creates more tension for a competitive viewer or esports. People are on the edge of their seat watching as the player is about to lose the game, they see him collecting the vital zerglings in the corner of his base waiting for the most minimally effective amount while using the absolute best micro they could possibly use to break their way out of a dire situation. It's SOoooooooooooo Important and fun to play and watch.
This is what I was talking about with the slippery slope in sc2 being far far too steep.
This attack rally basically suicides your units or causes them to take more damage than you want them to do EVEN if you try to micro them immediately when they come out. There is no fighting the AI when they instantly come out attacking, especially for fast units like a zealot with charge or a zergling with speed. And even further more when there are slowing effects like marauder shots..
Two other aspects of the lack of defenders advantage in sc2, are:
Cliffs don't make a % of hits miss anymore.
And the other being how structures are armored type and take bonus from units like marauder, immortal, etc. 5 marauders stimmed do incredibly brutally fast DPS to a structure at 100 damage per volley. And immortals do a whopping 50+ damage per hit as well. Bldgs need a new armor type or bonus to armored should be altered for structures.
Another good example of this is when bunker rushing or defending with a bunker. When a marine comes out instead of instantly running straight to the bunker, he comes out starts shooting (why on earth would a guy do this irl if there is a safety net 1 inch away) Like it doesn't even make sense.Obviously the guy is gonna come out and be ordered to the bunker immediately, so why would he ignore that order start panic shooting just to be ordered to move into it again anyways.
But besides this stupid lore aspect, the marine can come out an literally freaking die because he attacked for that split second instead of running into the bunker. For two reasons:
1) He draws the alert of additional units further away by firing upon them (this is especially bad vs ranged units or chargelots).
2) he stopped just long enough to get a surround or semi surround where the enemy wouldn't normally have been able to micro it (remember when people would place melee units around the spawning point of the rax in scbw to trap a marine? yea now it doesn't even matter because with auto surround and the fact that unit stops in place when he comes out you don't even have to set it up, they do it on their own.)
And people arguing that i should micro is a bad argument, because you can claim the same exact thing for the moving units running into death. Only the difference is that the moving units can be rallied another direction in the first place to escape (where as the attack moved will attack regardless of this), and if I want them to attack when they come out I can easily set the rally to nothing and they come out, stop and auto aquire a target, or I just pick them up with my legitimate apm on the way to battle before they do something stupid and attack move them myself like all good players should and would.
And don't get me wrong, attack rally is great for certain situations and for noobs, but for higher level play and most situations as far as im concernced it's better to not have it on. So it should be toggleable, or the barracks should just have 2 kinds of rallies. One that attacks, and one that moves.
I think a simple solution would be something like making left click do attack rally, and right click do move rally. Make the attack rally line/arrow red and make the move rally arrow/line white.
And additionally have 2 manually clickable icons stolen from units to move/attack.
And the hotkeys for these buttons don't have to be M or A in case they interfere with unit production hotkeys either, because look at planetary fortress. When you press S it builds an SCV it doesn't STOP attacking. P is used for stop on this bldg.
ps- No I(we) are not just being picky. This is vitally important to the success of the game imo. Lots of players love this comeback playstyle or situation, there is a huge sense of satisfaction when you defend an attack against all odds, even if you may still die to the next wave anyways. Ans since Scbw was always a game of just barely making enough units to defend while trying to gain sneak in as much economy as possible this situation comes up A LOT especially for players like me.
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On March 25 2010 05:49 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I agree with Day[9] that this isn't a feature to complain about, just to be aware of and to plan for.
There are scenarios where either scheme is a disadvantage, you just have to be ready in either case.
Where did day say anything??
The problem is that the disadvantage with move rallies is easily overcome by reasons mentioned above, and the disadvantage of attack rally is NOT easily overcome if at all in reverse situation.
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[QUOTE]On March 25 2010 08:51 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Attack rally may be good for games like WC3, where you have 1 crappy army and you rally all your units to that hero and army which is constantly running around the map creeping and doing stupid shit. Where one more unit being added is hotkeyed to your group and is almost always better to be attack moving across the map. QUOTE]
in warcraft it would be even worse, because losing 1 unit is a big deal (gives experience to enemy hero). Attacking moving across the map your single unit would be more likely to get caught by the opposing army, or start fighting a creep camp by themselves if it's day time in game.
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On March 25 2010 08:28 CharlieMurphy wrote:This thread needs a poll soooooooo badly so blizzard can correct the error of their ways. Plz update op Poll: Do you like attack rallies?( Vote): Yes ( Vote): HELL NO WTF WERE YOU THINKING? Poll: What should be done about them?( Vote): Make a toggle for Attack/Move commands ( Vote): Make them only Move command (like scbw) ( Vote): Other
Updated, thanks.
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Uh you could just have the rest of your army arrive right as the units finish building. Then they all join the fight
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That's not even what the thread is about. o_o
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EPT
