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[I][D] Random map generation in SC2?

Forum Index > SC2 General
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BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
October 06 2009 00:53 GMT
#1
First, the reason.

With the amount of time people tend to spend into researching maps nowadays they get solved in a finite amount of time and bring the play on those maps to a sort of stagnation. While it's still an entertaining watch, we mostly see how players prepare for their games instead of in-game thinking (although you can't do without it completely ofc). However, the other option of throwing the players into the depths of a completely unknown map right at the league is largely unexplored mostly because once it becomes known, mapmakers need to make another one.

Theoretically, matching players on unknown maps would reveal another, completely different StarCraft where the dominating players would be those who have more overall experience and understanding of the game than those who study every crevice on a given map. I'm not saying it's better because of course it's impossible to devise a really well-thought-out build on a map you don't know, but it's quite different, and therefore, might hold additional spectator value. It's a very special feeling when you know that players make their decisions completely in real-time, relying only on knowledge of the races and their instincts.

In SC and mostly in RTS'es, random map generation is something unheard of (while it's a common feature in TBS games, only one new RTS in development whose name I fail to recall has this feature). For SC in particular there were several reasons:

1) SC was initially made with Pentium 90-based CPU as minimum required specification. While it ran on slower systems (I played on P-60 without any side effects), map generation even on P-90 might be unaffordable because of the computational limitations.

2) SC had a hacky pathfinding engine (for the same computational reason, it's a miracle pathfinding even works in that game) that sometimes required non-logical (impossible to predict beforehand) fine-tuning impossible to implement in random maps.

3) Competetive play was a dormant phenomenon back then at 1998. Noone in the world understood what made a playable map, let alone a decent one. Ramped mains, natural expansions - all these concepts are inherent for SC2 mapmaking, but take a look at some maps SC originally shipped with and you'll get the picture.

4) Sprite-based engine with arbitrary tile passability makes pathfinding analysis somewhat too special case-dependent to be reliably implemented.

Now all these problems don't exist for SC2. We all have good computers that generate Mandelbrot fractals in a matter of milliseconds and a very flexible game engine with industry-standard (instead of home-made) pathfinding algoritms.

I'm perfectly sure that implementing random map generation in SC2 is possible. Imo, the best way to do it would be making a node graph with varying amount of detail. An example meta-algorithm:

1) Roll 2, 3 or 4 as a random number of starting positions.
2) Roll map size, anything but 2 players requires the dimensions to be equal.
3) Cut the middle part and randomly put a start position node in the outer part.
4) Put other start position nodes with regard to symmetry.
5) Decide on a basic pathfinding pattern (RH3-like circular, Python-like open middle, islands etc).
6) Put 5-8 basic pathing nodes that connect the starting positions to each other.
7) Assign properties to nodes like "high ground" and "has a mining spot".
8) Add detail to the node structure. Add pathfinding artifacts (backdoors).
9) Assign additional properties to the newly added nodes - "ramp", "high grass", "destructible rocks", "yet another expansion" etc.
10) Grow terrain around the final node graph. Apply decor. Spawn critters.

It's logical to add minimap markers for starting positions to alleviate the initial scouting luck. In fact, replay distributing would not be in any way hindered because it's not the whole map but only the random seed that needs to be stored in a replay for re-generation at watching time. And a random seed is just a number.

While in reality it is not nearly that simple as I've described, it's doable. The question is: would you enjoy playing on random maps and would you enjoy watching people play on random maps? I want a discussion here.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
frankbg
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada335 Posts
October 06 2009 00:58 GMT
#2
Huh, westwood's done this in most of their command & conquer series, at least on the 2-3 I've played (I think RA, RA2 and TS), not 100% sure they all had it but 100% sure that it's been done.

It wasn't too bad for skirmishes vs computers too
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
October 06 2009 01:02 GMT
#3
At first I was going to come into this thread saying that this would never work, but then I remembered some pretty advanced randomizer addons (such as SLIGE for Doom) that have proven to be pretty powerful and flexible. There is some merit in the idea. I think it's technically feasible to make these sorts of maps relatively balanced and could even make for some fun and exciting games. There are a couple of potential pitfalls, though:

1. The map is unfamiliar. This is a good and bad thing. You have some difficulty coming up with strategies because the map is unknown, and more importantly, your opponent has limited knowledge of the map meaning he may be unable to defend. Adding an extra unknown to the game as critical as the map itself is very risky.

2. Audiences can't appreciate a random map in the way that they can immediately identify the Nostalgias, the Rush Hours, the Bifrosts. Maps have their own subculture in gaming, and random maps can't have a following just because you'll never see them again.

Now, if there were a built-in randomizer within the editor that allowed you to save and re-use maps, then you would have a real winner on your hands. I'd probably play the heck out of that.
Moderator
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-06 01:16:16
October 06 2009 01:08 GMT
#4
Wasn't there a thread about this a couple months ago that just devolved into a flame-fest?

Lets not start that again.

My 2 cents:

I think the biggest problem is the sheer amount of minutiae that are relevant to maps, and the delicacy of balance with regard to a changing metagame. The random map generator would have to be patched at a much faster rate than SC is now, because things people didn't know are relevant become relevant. People in 1998 probably didn't know that a 1-square difference in the mineral patches on a map like Blue Storm would completely warp the matchup statistics. No one in 2003 would know that changing the shape of the natural relative to Forge-FE builds could turn a balanced map into a Protoss graveyard. The relevance of things shifts in and out, and the expectation that Blizzard would patch the randomizer more regularly than they did SC1, especially 10 years into the future, is unrealistic.
Moderator
ejac
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States1195 Posts
October 06 2009 01:22 GMT
#5
If blizzard could design a "perfect" map generator that would always make balanced and maps with no exploits, it would be a nice feature to have and play occasionally, but since that is not going to happen, I'd say screw it.
esq>n
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