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A friend of mine (Z) and me (and I?) (T) have been playing a couple of 2v2 games recently.
I didn't play any 2v2 in WoL but my friend did and he basically did early game rushes everytime with another friend of mine (fast hellions + 10 pool lings). Now we don't want to play the same strategy over and over again and we'd like to play macro games.
Yet we found that other people don't seem to have the same idea of playing 2v2 and we basically get 1 base rushed most of the games while we tech up and get additional bases.
Sometimes we are able to defend the rushes (and are able to play a macro game from that point), other times we aren't and will just die instantly.
Now we feel that our strategy is too vulnerable to early game rushes:
- The Z makes hatch first and techs to roaches or stays with lings, depending on what we scout
- The T goes for fast hellions and techs to Tanks and/or Starport depending on what gets scouted. Only when I feel that we're safe I build my own expansion.
While this strategy helps defending some of the early game pushes, it's not bulletproof and we might fall behind against players that go for early expansions (which we're not really able to put pressure on).
So we feel that we might be better off playing another strategy.
Are there any strategies that allow you to defend early game pushes (mass reapers seem to be a new favorite these days) while macroing up as well, or do you basically have to gamble and go for one or the other?
Or do you think that by scouting better we should be able to modify our strategy as necessary?
Kind regards
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
On December 21 2012 20:18 CosmoK wrote:
Yet we found that other people don't seem to have the same idea of playing 2v2 and we basically get 1 base rushed most of the time
Tell me about it...me and my friend only really play 2v2 as it's fun and we like to game together. People are 6pool'n 4gate'n, mass lings, and blink all ins on a beta :S makes no sense to me.
We have a similar set up to you and your friend. We play T and Z but we change it about, sometimes im T/Z sometimes he is T/Z. As of late i have been Z and he has been T.
We just change it up alot, make sure you get rid of "reflection" out of your map pool and t hat will help stopping the rushes as that map is jsut stupid. He opens up 1rax CC and i open up speedling expand, so i take the early map control whilst he either goes Helions/Bio drops. But like you we prefer the macro games in 2v2 as we like to get to know the new units, and see some more late game tech.
The only other thing i can add is make more static defenses. Ala when your vs a Z scout after you make your depot, and hunt for that pool timing.
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Assuming you have the same skill as your opponents, I don't think there is a safe all-round build that doesn't rely on scouting. This truly is a game of scouting and knowing how to deal with what you scout. I'm not talking about sending one scv to see what they are up to in the early game. I'm talking about continuous scouting, which is often what separates decent players from good players.
A macro build is of course the base of a macro game, but in order to deal with all the cheeses out there, you often need to see it coming first. You need to know how to deal with it.
Take your reaper example for instance. Since this unit is so popular these days you should look at the replay and deduce what gives the build away. And then in the next game, scout for that particular thing. Upon scouting it, make sure you find the appropriate way to deal with it. If you deal with the cheese, you are quite ahead of your opponents.
So what should you take with you from this post? Scouting! Aside from macro, it is the most important thing in starcraft.
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Its also becasue rushing is much more effective in 2v2 than 1v1. Even at high masters people will rush most of the time. #
Weaknesses in rushes are often completlely negated in 2v2. Whilst in 1v1 you only need to understand one persons strategy against you, in 2v2 you also need to factor in every combined thing that could happen.
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The best I can say is scout super early and learn to flub your builds around. Tech switching, floating your allies' build is the name of the game. I'd say the best games I play I just go planetary fortress the whole dam map and let my Zerg buddy siphon off me for that juicy juicy infestor brood lord + muta + ultra + whatever else he wants. Zerg (in my opinion) is the most "responsive" race with the most fluid tech switches.
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When me and my team mate was top 100 in EU master leg 2v2, in the world (whe where top 8 in the leg), in Wol we did the same macro build every game. We where so timed and perfect in or build that we was preperd to deal with all kind of agressions. Becous we know what to do.
One think I know with big sertanty is one player exp the other teck and be redy to defend.
Try this: Terran expand inbase after 1rax. Zerg get ling speed and take map controll. Follow up with big armey with marin roach maby medivaks. If opponents have dubbel exped when you only have one exp you are going to kill it if you worke on your timings.
(marin roach was the big thing in Wol I dont know if they are now. I havent played Hots that much.)
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On December 26 2012 12:53 SolidHaze wrote:
The best I can say is scout super early and learn to flub your builds around. Tech switching, floating your allies' build is the name of the game. I'd say the best games I play I just go planetary fortress the whole dam map and let my Zerg buddy siphon off me for that juicy juicy infestor brood lord + muta + ultra + whatever else he wants. Zerg (in my opinion) is the most "responsive" race with the most fluid tech switches.
I'm relatively new to 2v2s, and have been playing T+Z HotS games with my Zerg friend. Do you guys find this assymetrical style (with one person macroing and feeding the other who can tech/make strong attacks with his boosted income) to be stronger overall than say working towards deadly T+Z unit compositions?
I have to agree I see so much more one base play than the 1v1 ladder I'm use to. It's difficult for us to get off to a solid start when I 1rax expand like I would in most 1v1 games. We're in plat at the moment.
Thanks for any input!
iNFiNiTE
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In 2v2 or Teamgames in general, 1base strategies are efficient because a decently crafted all-in is almost guaranteed to win against other less or equally mechanically skilled players, especially true when not scouted. If you actively scout, get some units to poke around such as speedlings or hellions, holding all-ins should be easier. However, even if you want to macro, you have to be 100% ready to react correctly when seeing an all-in or push come.
I don't like assymentrical play with feeding, it might be the most efficient way to play, but it's not really fun for the player who ends up feeding. It's better to use the send resource function to correct your balance sheets if e.g. you do a macro slip and is unable to spend all your money, it might be better to send it or some of it.
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but it's not really fun for the player who ends up feeding.
This is something I hear from peopel we defet in games, the opponents going mad. The thing is I am paying fore the units... think about that. When we play we devid the micro. I help blink, I use storm and guardian shild. I scout with hgis workers. I cronoboost his uppgrades, I use MY APM where it can be used to help our team.
In 2v2 or Teamgames in general, 1base strategies are efficient because a decently crafted all-in is almost guaranteed to win against other less or equally mechanically skilled players
This is alsow true in 1v1. You need to talk whit your ally and say: Ok we die from 8 pool cannon rush. How do we stop it (8 pool cannon rush was big and strong opening in Wol even in master 2v2). All the things you do to train in 1v1 you need to do in 2v2 alsow to be really good. The harder stuff is you have to do it whit some one els, not only in your head like in 1v1. That is one big reason way 2v2 is so hard.
I will give you an understanding on how we did our opening. So you get an idee.
1) we alwaes walled of with 1 supply 1 pylon 1 rax and 1 gateway. We did this to prevent mass speedling all in and prevent late scouting. The pylon and supply was always in the middel! this was supper important cant stress it enuff. My alli protoss alwas scout on 9 pylon. I am the one controlling the scout, he is fockusing on his build. (we found out that if he mess up and get supply blocked we are in big shit. If he is 10 sec behind we are in big shit, so he needs perfect build order, so I use my APM to scout)
2) my rax was always the closet and eseyest to kill. I can reapir it. And one more thing. If mauraders + ovilord wanna kill the rax they can shout it from low ground. But they have to go up ramp to shout gateway. And I repair the rax.
3) I get orbital after rax and constantly make marins out of the rax, no gas. Then after second marin I make inbase expansion. And call down supply so I can make constantly marins. Then I get bunker. The bunker is really important it save ous from 1 stalker and 1 ovilord. If I only have marins 10 marins lose from 1 stalker. And also we are more safe from wall busting all ins.
4) I will now go into feeding mode. Now he come up with his build. He has made alot of sentrys like 6-8 froom normal gateways.
(A long time ago sentrys had longer build time, not anymore)
He get hallucination after warpgate is finished. I make one hallucinated phenix and scout there base at 7.20 and see if they have taked one more expansion total of 4bases togheter, and many more stuff (some one here said you have to constantly scout, we do that with hallucinated phenix). This hallucinated phenix ended up changing or play staly alot we got alot out of it.
5) now we push at 8:00 something and I can follow up with vikings or mass tanks depending on. Vikings are supper good in 2v2 btw. I am the only one expanding btw too. I go up to maby 8 orbitals on 5 bases togheter and mule like crazy.
Sometimes we spent 2 houres talking about this opening that we use all times, and it works agient all kinds of stuff. We are 1v1 dimond and I am 1v1 platinum. So when we lost games in 2v2 it was becous of mekaniks. But we where top 8 master and 100 EU global master. So you can get a long way if you fockus on your teamplay!
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Although a friend of mine are P+Z instead of your T+Z I think I could share some knowledge.
Playing 1-base allins every game and perfecting them is a pretty safe way to get into masters league when your individual skills are pretty solid. It also has the advantage of being able to play many games in a very short amount of time, maximizing the points/time ratio.
Since we both trust in our mechanics and overall game knowledge we decided quite some time ago to not go that route and play solid macro games except when the enemy goes for macro cheese. The key to holding early aggression and 1-base timings is asymetrical gameplay. We open either with him doing a 10-pool while I go nexus first, or him doing a double expand with some spines and me going for some defensive build. The goal is
-to hold very early cheeses (proxy rax, 7-pool, proxy gates)
-to hold 1-bases pushes around 5-7 minutes
-to get an economic edge over the opponent while holding the early aggression
-to be able to punish enemies who are doing a macro cheese (both doing a FE-build).
If you hold their 1-base all-in while being on 1-base well, you have gained nothing. The benefit of a team matchup is the ability to distribute ressources. When my buddy is playing a mineral-heavy style he will still mine all his geysers and give excess gas to me so I can play a build which would be impossible in a 1vs1 scenario.
Once you master holding early aggression you are rewarded with a very high win-loss-ratio as most players are very inexperienced in a 2vs2 lategame. Drag 'em to your home turf and beat the crap out of them!
Oh, and btw: Not doing 1-base allins or early aggression does not mean that you have to stay passive in the early game. Whenever we see a terran on the enemy team we usually double scout and harrass his SCVs with two workers of our own. Putting pressure on them will open up opportunities, mess with their builds and can throw them off their game entirely. It's especially powerful on maps with seperate bases or where player usually want to wall-off against your zerg buddy. We are also very active with our very first units in order to spot proxy pylons, fake pressure to scout their unit composition and sometimes get easy wins just off of that.
There sadly is no all-around build for every matchup, it all comes down to personal style and performance. Don't rely on 1vs1 builds and be ready to adapt to the flow of the game.
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On January 23 2013 21:16 MicroMonkey wrote:This is something I hear from peopel we defet in games, the opponents going mad. The thing is I am paying fore the units... think about that. When we play we devid the micro. I help blink, I use storm and guardian shild. I scout with hgis workers. I cronoboost his uppgrades, I use MY APM where it can be used to help our team. Show nested quote +In 2v2 or Teamgames in general, 1base strategies are efficient because a decently crafted all-in is almost guaranteed to win against other less or equally mechanically skilled players This is alsow true in 1v1. You need to talk whit your ally and say: Ok we die from 8 pool cannon rush. How do we stop it (8 pool cannon rush was big and strong opening in Wol even in master 2v2). All the things you do to train in 1v1 you need to do in 2v2 alsow to be really good. The harder stuff is you have to do it whit some one els, not only in your head like in 1v1. That is one big reason way 2v2 is so hard.
You're definately right about the first point, I didn't think of shared control, sorry.
On the second point, I disagree. Yes, it is true in some regards, but it is much more severe in 2v2's. Especially in games where you have seperated bases. E.g. if one forcefields 1 ramp while teaming the other. If the offensive players dictate the fights, they can force fights that are 1 on 2, and then kill the other player afterwards. Basically, because a lot of builds that rely on getting to lategame is often based around cutting units and being able to defend, but not move out on the map to unite with your ally.
Of course, there are details with tech and different races, but I'm just talking about concepts that would apply for any races.
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On January 28 2013 05:26 TokO wrote:
On the second point, I disagree. Yes, it is true in some regards, but it is much more severe in 2v2's. Especially in games where you have seperated bases. E.g. if one forcefields 1 ramp while teaming the other. If the offensive players dictate the fights, they can force fights that are 1 on 2, and then kill the other player afterwards. Basically, because a lot of builds that rely on getting to lategame is often based around cutting units and being able to defend, but not move out on the map to unite with your ally.
Of course, there are details with tech and different races, but I'm just talking about concepts that would apply for any races.
Molten Crater is the only map that has seperated bases in the current map pool. Veto it and you will be able to defend a shared choke point with both your armies in every game. Your opponents will dictate the time of the first engagement (whenever their one-base push hits), but you decide where you take the fight and can prepare with building placment and army positioning.
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