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Hi everyone,
Diamond terran here.
I wanted to discuss about the new reaper and the TvT matchup.
I played a few games mostly TvT and I wanted to share and discuss about way to deal with reaper opening and associated different brain games I encountered.
I wanted to discuss more about solutions than comments like : "reaper is imba anyway"
Here is what i do for the moment :
phase 1 : SCOUTING
I will list different kind of situations i encountered that could lead to reaper play or counter reaper play
1) your opponent have his barrack in his main and tech lab directly with no marine (so you scout it)
2) No barracks in main but gas mining
3) your opponent have barrack in main, blocked scouting with supply and pops a marine before doing anything else
(if people can add different openings situations i will be glad to know them )
Phase 2 : Analysis
what can he bring out now from theses openings ?
from opening 1) and 3) there is a very high probability that your opponent will open reaper. The question you will ask yourself is how many rax he has built as one obvious counter to reaper is to have more reaper than your opponent. Getting the info is hard though.
the opening 2 is the hard one ! Your opponent can go proxy reaper 1 or 2 rax but also proxy marauder 1 or 2 rax. when you scout the proxy you see tech labs and unit in production but you still don't know if it is reaper or marauders.
Phase 3 : reaction
my reaction to situation 1) and 3) i found that on most maps, to be safe I should go at least 2 rax reaper to counter your opponent doing the same thing. And after that it is a fight of micro/luck and assign your reapers to either harass your opponent or defend.
I find marauders very expensive and hard to use on big maps like Korhal city, Star station. But with a wall at cliff ,you can do marauders on akilon wastes.
my reaction to situation 2) is to be forced to go marauder because if my opponent go marauder and i go reaper i will die or having hard time repairing a bunker and loose lots of scv the time my reapers kills slowly marauders.
so my opponent forced me to go marauder and damn he gets reapers instead of marauders ! Now, i have to only defend and get a good amount of reaper or marauder force to deal with this very aggressive harass. I eventually try to get siege tanks to safe expand.
I feel that my reactions are for now kind of dumb but i didn't find anything else for now to counter reaper or "possibility of reaper" openings from my opponent. And i'm frustrated doing what i'm doing because wheter i win or i loose i feel that is only because of my/his lack of micro at one moment or luck.
So i would like to ask what more original solutions you guys found to deal with the 3 different reaper openings i mentionned.
I think that the solution could be to find a safe way to go factory/starport tech to finally deal with those reapers, but I never succeded to do something working right now.
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I go blind marauder with shell into cc and more raxes cauz T goes 99%reaper
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Well, here is what I do.
I just pump marines non-stop from naked rax and rush for tank.. So by the time 1st reaper (even from proxy rax) arrives I have at least 3 marines and I can hold it comfortably. It's very important to stay behind your wall and not right at the edge of your cliff with your marines. You need to be positioned so that when the reaper jumps up you will then engage immidiately and do free damage when he jumps down. He should not commit at this point to more reapers, or he is automatically behind.
It's ok to let them damage your depot, just wait for your tank. Once your tank is out, you are safe and he is behind (if he builds more than 1 reaper), because you can expand right after your factory.
edit: This way I haven't lost single game to reapers or suffered any damage at all.. I don't know if this build is good or my opponents not playing/microing good.. But I play diamond/master level players.
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Dragon and other master T in HotS streaming go always for 1-1-1.Lot of marines nonstop,bunker and wall on the ramp.Hellions/mines+Medivac stop this.You can also build supply depots near your minerals closing paths where reapers wanna use to block them forcing them go in your base exposed to your army.Pulling some scvs helps too.If you lose 2-3 scvs,thihnh that he lose 2-3 reapers and this is 50 min 50 gas.Much more expensive...
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And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers.
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I myself am a reapering player. I have found in my 15ish games in which I opened Reaper that you can win outright if your opponent does not react properly but usually I only pick off a good amount of marines and 2-5 SCVs. I go 1 rax reaper and my expansion is not much later than a 1 rax expanding 1 rax tanking player. Going 2 rax reapers is actually very weak if you dont do massive economic damage because your expansion is a lot later than you'd like it to be.
I have experienced that most people were able to take minimal damage from my 1 rax reaper expand build by just building marines out of a naked barracks, but if they follow that up with hellions or a banshee I usually take some damage too (because my general infantry forces are so greatly delayed) that is sort of evens out. The most important thing about defending against reapers is, as stated above, having your marines at the right place, away from the edge.
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On December 11 2012 20:53 Sissors wrote:
And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers.
In my experience, 3 marines + 4th on the way is enough with careful micro to defend 1 reaper.. You might need bunker if it's like super fast proxy reaper, but most of the time, I'm ok with naked rax constant marine production.. Tank comes out really fast, then I'm safe. I just keep my units near cc, so I'm able to defend large are. I don't care reapers attacking my depo. Once tank is out, it's the end for reapers. I expo after my factory, so I'm not behing economically. Or am I? The point is, it's safe. It works for me. I'm not doing push with tank, it's just for defensive purposes.
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depend on what i scouted, I could make few Marauders with Shell upgrade then FE or 1-1-1 with nonstop marines and well positional mines. IMO Marauders open into 1-1-1 Banshee or into mines then FE is much more safer
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I discovered you can do kind of a blind counter to reapers and go for 12gas, 13rax reactor hellions if you do everything right your 2 hellions pop out just as the enemy reaper jumps your cliff and you can proceed to 2 shot him and chase down the next one and you can find yourself in a situation where you have 4 hellions and enemy has at most a marauder and you can kill some scvs or just expand and the game goes on.
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On December 11 2012 21:14 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 20:53 Sissors wrote:
And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers. In my experience, 3 marines + 4th on the way is enough with careful micro to defend 1 reaper.. You might need bunker if it's like super fast proxy reaper, but most of the time, I'm ok with naked rax constant marine production.. Tank comes out really fast, then I'm safe. I just keep my units near cc, so I'm able to defend large are. I don't care reapers attacking my depo. Once tank is out, it's the end for reapers. I expo after my factory, so I'm not behing economically. Or am I? The point is, it's safe. It works for me. I'm not doing push with tank, it's just for defensive purposes.
I certainly believe you when you say it keeps you save against reaper opening. But the reason I don't use it, just as I dont use for example defensive marauders, although I do like to try proxy'ing them, is that I dont think just staying alive is sufficient.
Since I mine only from one geyser my own expansion when going reapers isnt that late. Of course significantly later than a 1-rax FE, but not extreme. The difference between me and an opponent who does something like that would be mainly that I got complete map control and know what the opponent is doing, he doesnt.
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On December 11 2012 21:36 VonComet wrote:
I discovered you can do kind of a blind counter to reapers and go for 12gas, 13rax reactor hellions if you do everything right your 2 hellions pop out just as the enemy reaper jumps your cliff and you can proceed to 2 shot him and chase down the next one and you can find yourself in a situation where you have 4 hellions and enemy has at most a marauder and you can kill some scvs or just expand and the game goes on.
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe.
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TvT is now ZvZ. You blind guess what your opponent is making much like in ZvZ sometimes there's a guessing game involved with the larva mechanic "did he build drones? or did he build 30 zergling/baneling?"
Now it's, "did he go reaper? did he go anti-reaper with marauder? did he go reaper but play defensive reaper? did he go defensive marauder? do you blind counter all of that and go fast banshee?"
And if they 1 rax expand with no refinfery you just laugh.
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On December 11 2012 21:42 Everlong wrote:
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe.
Well no not really I tested the build extensively and you can pull it off on any map, most of the games were vs gm players too.
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I usualy go 1rax into tank with a bunker on highground to preserve your marines. Thing to be noted though is that I've played very few games of hots (maybe 7-8 TvT's) since I've been lazy. I'm a masters terran and I've noticed that most terrans infact open reaper. Rushing a tank, getting a fast siegemode and expanding behind a 2-3tank/10 marine push you can actually win the game straight from that push.
Depending on how fast he took his CC you can bring 2-3 scvs and build a bunker and you'll defo push his CC up in the base and have a great contain. Once starport is up you should be able to push for the win and if not you'll atleast have a good macro advantage behind it.
But that's just my experience so far, and I do not think I'm playing masters level yet so maybe this aint such a great strategy after all!
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On December 11 2012 21:53 VonComet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 21:42 Everlong wrote:
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe. Well no not really I tested the build extensively and you can pull it off on any map, most of the games were vs gm players too.
Oh wow, really.. Hmm, ok, I'm going to give it a try then.
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thanks all. I will definitevely try your fast tank expo.
But at the end you end up with two things :
- the reaper opponent will expand before you
- you have a tech advantage as you just unlocked factory
So the question now is how to take advantage of that prematured unlocked tech to pressure/outmacro your opponent that opened reaper and that is a bit ahead
I like also the fast helion build.I will definitevely try to use it on large maps.
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With the hellion build I am afraid if he walled in his ramp he can hold out quite a while, especially with a reaper defending (he outranges the hellions), and meanwhile if he made a bunch more reapers he can go directly to your base to wreak havoc. With cliff jumping reapers definately have the advantage of choosing the engagement.
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I just go 1rax expand with defensive marauders + scout reaper.
After that fast mines and a transition into mech.
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On December 11 2012 22:13 Sissors wrote:
With the hellion build I am afraid if he walled in his ramp he can hold out quite a while, especially with a reaper defending (he outranges the hellions), and meanwhile if he made a bunch more reapers he can go directly to your base to wreak havoc. With cliff jumping reapers definately have the advantage of choosing the engagement.
Good observation yea, but it comes down to decision making of both players and the way you decide to progress your bo.
As you say reapers have the advantage of jumping the cliff, but hellions have the advantage of much faster production and a slight edge in speed, if the opponent walls you can still deny the cc for a while, and you can easily take the lowground cc and defend it with additional hellions and a pair of mines (atleast 2 have to be made to defend any banshee followup). Its not a perfect build by any means but it will give you a chance to outplay your opponent unlike the reaper vs reaper coinflip.
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I feel it's just best to go reaper yourself now. Most builds that stop 1 rax reaper easily like marauders or fast tank actually expand later than a simple reaper opening. The reaper build also transitions into mech quite well which is by far the best option now while stuff like marauder or multiple rax openings leave you with some subpar units later.
I seriously haven't seen one opening that really counters reapers because simply playing something that defends it tends to be even at best. The reaper player can just make his FE at his natural without having to fly it over and he is pretty much safe from other aggressive options because of the scouting he gets, if you go banshee/drop for example they can easily have some widow mines in time.
I'm not quite sure yet how 1 rax reaper holds up against 2 rax reaper but I don't think it should be too problematic and can probably by dealt with by a bunker. I don't like making more that 1 rax ever in TvT now because mech/air units are so much more effective going into the lategame
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i prefer make defensive reapers, 99% of TvT have early reapers involved so i take a defensive aproach to this, making 2-3 reapers for defense, while taking a FE. If i dont see reapers coming ill atack with my owns reapers and tecking to mech or bio behind this.
Right now i see the reapers openings too strong in TvT, so blizz is going to nerf the reapers in some way imo
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hi, i was also beat by a player made reapers.
I find out that if I build supplies on the edge of the cliff, reapers can't jump the cliff anymore. So they can never get in.
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I've been testing gasless expand pumping marines constantly, into double refinery into double factory into hellions. WIth supply depots on the edges and by having my marines clumbed closely together it has worked the last couple of times. I don't really scout as this build should counter very close to everyhing.
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I would go for marauder while expanding every TvT after I watched Drewbie playing against by reapers in all TvT.
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I try to lure the reapers inside my minerals line and then surround and kill with all my scv's.
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On December 11 2012 21:45 avilo wrote:
TvT is now ZvZ. You blind guess what your opponent is making much like in ZvZ sometimes there's a guessing game involved with the larva mechanic "did he build drones? or did he build 30 zergling/baneling?"
Now it's, "did he go reaper? did he go anti-reaper with marauder? did he go reaper but play defensive reaper? did he go defensive marauder? do you blind counter all of that and go fast banshee?"
And if they 1 rax expand with no refinfery you just laugh.
Uhm. Or you just do the old fashioned 1 rax rauder fe, build a bunker in your main, put your expo CC by your main and laugh because there's nothing that any reaper build can do against it?
You're complaining about a completely new change in the metagame. Reapers are an awesomely fun unit. TvT needs more awesomely fun units. Worst comes to worst, just reduce the range on them to 4 or something so they're forced to engage queens and marines in order to beat them.
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Because their 4.5 range outranges 5 range queens?
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I played reaper a lot the past few days in zvT and TvT.
First i want to say that reaper play is awesome making the first 10-12 minutes so intense ! That's starcraft ! I didn't feel like that for a long time ! So fun!
So first i want to say that the turbo reactor factory play -> 2/4 helions expand and switch to tank production works very well vs 2 rax reaper / 3 rax reaper factory. and i think you are a little bit ahead in term of macro play but i'm not sure since i'm platinium and we are not so good at this level huh . anyway you get a great tech compared to the guy investing in reaper and reaper upgrade and in a lot of maps you can control space fine. But in some maps such as howling peaks or korhal city i found that more difficult and i sometimes invested on WM.
For the reaper play i always goes 3rax (or more ahahaha) factory with 2 gas to get the speed upgrade. For the begining, i found that more efficient to stack reapers in my base and counter the reaper aggression of my opponent then attack. For the first 1v1 reaper i get out 1 scv when the ennemy reaper will probably come and i attack with my scv and my own reaper so the 1v1 reaper is no more luck and to be sure to win the fight. I always put my reaper+scv not so close to the cliff to be sure my opponent don't see it until he jumped up.
If my opponent did the same (keeping his reaper in his base) i wait for the speed upgrade to attack with lot's of reapers(i get factory after my 2nd rax).
the difficulty when u go reaper in my level is to know when u can stop reaper and focus on macro. Because stoping too early if your opponent is massing reaper will make you die and investing too much on reapers while your opponent tech to tank or WM to counter reaper will put you in a really bad situation.
I found reaper more fun in TvZ as this play force the zerg to go a combination of the following :
1) lots of queens
2) roach
3) spines
i found the micro vs queen and so very very entertaining when i usually was sleeping the first 6 minutes waiting my hellions come into play.
I feel like reaper need a little nerf like reducing the range to allow queens/marauders/marines to be more effective against them. But please blizzard let the regen mechanic and speed as it is . It is sooooooooooo fun !
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Best way IMO is to go 2rax Reaper yourself but stop at 3 Reapers.
If he makes more Reapers than you, you can easily build Marauders (or more Reapers) and if he doesn't you can scout or possibly punish.
Reapers are both good defensively and offensively, whereas opening with a Marauder is mostly defensive.
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These days I do single rax, one reaper -> marauders. Meanwhile making a factory and starting to place widow mines in defensive positions, and going for cloakshees at the same time, which finish his reapers/marauders. Oh and defend against his cloakshees. You really need to pay attention to banshees when travelling and having cloak: When you see one of his widow mines activating immediatly cloak and you are fine.
You just have to stay ahead of the meta-game, which is shifting quite fast. First it was single rax reaper into regular play, which I could quite easily beat with triple rax reapers. Now most people do triple rax reapers or something similar, so I play defensively and go for cloakshees.
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Seige tanks expand.
all you need.
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Marauders are always a better option in the new TvT matchup. Their natural armour equates to reapers doing 6 damage per shot and with their relatively long cd, one marauder can kill several reapers. Opening with slow also stops annoying reapers from getting away, heal and join back in the fight, which means their reapers are almost useless. Then you transition into starport (with double gas) and start building banshees, in which some simple kite micro can take out the few marines the opponent makes, which can mean easy victory or severe economic damage. As for the factory, i suggest staying away from hellion production, as 2-4 reapers can easily crush a handful of hellions with proper micro. At some point, if you see a full commitment to reapers, just bunker up at home and continue producing marauders. That banshee you have been making should come into full effect and win you that game.
Alternatively, if you want a fast tech route and have good map control, u still open with 13 gas, use the rax for constant marine production and build 1 bunker at a common reaper path. After obtaining 4-5 rines with 1 rine in the bunker, use that rax for reactor production whilst building your factory. In that time they should have around 3 reapers which should not be a problem with a bunker and FOCUS firing. Get two mines asap and plant them on common ledges and that should effectively end all reaper harass. If they combine it with dropships (yes it is possible to bypass mines with them), you will need to actively scout and replant those mines, ideally u'd have 6-7 mines which should 1 shot medivacs or groups of reapers if he decides to all-in. A neat trick to confuse your opponents is to unburrow your mines when he scans and sees them, move them out of range and then REPLANT them in the location he scanned.
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High masters/gm terran here. Vs reaper openings single rax with concussive marauder into expo seems to put the reaping terran behind a lot.
You can also try to open 1 rax into expo into 2 more rax marine tank, but I find this opening significantly harder to execute. All in all, the terran who opens reapers must do a lot of damage to not be behind, and in my level of play, he rarely does. I have been opening 3 rax reaper till gm with variable success but after a lot of games have come to the conclusion 1 rax concussive marauder is far stronger and can create opportunity for very strong timing pushes.
So, no, reapers are not a problem at all in TvT. To be honest, they should be buffed maybe in a way, maybe an upgrade for health or buff in build time so they are viable vs the other races. This thread, among many other threads on tl, discusses a problem that just isn't there.
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If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss.
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On December 18 2012 00:19 Sissors wrote:
If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss.
You have a point in stating that tvts are pigeon holed to at least 1 person doing the same reaper build. This is the beauty though, if they're so predictable, then all you have to do is perform a build that effectively deals with that opening and help you gain an advantage. As to how it goes about, only you can figure that out.
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On December 18 2012 00:19 Sissors wrote:
If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss.
If you watch any pro streams (dragon, for example) or play at gm level, you will notice that reapers are almost not used at all. it's marauder micro wars into marauder hellion or some mech mine or bio mech transition. No reapers whatsoever. My last 3 terran opponents were all gm and none of them made a reaper. So, no, the TvT doesn't revolve at all around reapers as they are very open to timing pushes.
For example, 3 rax marauder will just outright kill you if you play one rax reaper expand, even if you scout it with your first reaper.
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On December 18 2012 00:53 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:19 Sissors wrote:
If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss. If you watch any pro streams (dragon, for example) or play at gm level, you will notice that reapers are almost not used at all. it's marauder micro wars into marauder hellion or some mech mine or bio mech transition. No reapers whatsoever. My last 3 terran opponents were all gm and none of them made a reaper. So, no, the TvT doesn't revolve at all around reapers as they are very open to timing pushes. For example, 3 rax marauder will just outright kill you if you play one rax reaper expand, even if you scout it with your first reaper.
Dragon was also very cunning in hiding his marines to fake an early expo. He's one smart dragon.
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On December 18 2012 00:53 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:19 Sissors wrote:
If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss. If you watch any pro streams (dragon, for example) or play at gm level, you will notice that reapers are almost not used at all. it's marauder micro wars into marauder hellion or some mech mine or bio mech transition. No reapers whatsoever. My last 3 terran opponents were all gm and none of them made a reaper. So, no, the TvT doesn't revolve at all around reapers as they are very open to timing pushes. For example, 3 rax marauder will just outright kill you if you play one rax reaper expand, even if you scout it with your first reaper.
What you're observing is actually just blind luck guessing games. The reason you open marauder is to blind counter reaper openings. What if the opponent does not open reaper but opens 1 rax FE? They're ahead...etc.
TvT is a guessing game early game right now for both players.
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On December 18 2012 10:25 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:53 madespecifically wrote:On December 18 2012 00:19 Sissors wrote:
If the reaper guy also does single rax he isn't anything behind, if anything in front of you, and he has complete map control. He doesn't need to do any damage, and actually knows what you are doing: He knows he is save for a bit and can expand faster. Also if he went 2 rax reapers he is barely behind since reapers cost less minerals, so he can still make his expansion fast enough.
Just because you can counter it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem imo. Yes obviously you can counter reaper play, but the entire terran match-up now revolves around reaper openings. Even if you don't open yourself with reapers, almost always the enemy will. And the funny part? They are still pretty much useless against toss. If you watch any pro streams (dragon, for example) or play at gm level, you will notice that reapers are almost not used at all. it's marauder micro wars into marauder hellion or some mech mine or bio mech transition. No reapers whatsoever. My last 3 terran opponents were all gm and none of them made a reaper. So, no, the TvT doesn't revolve at all around reapers as they are very open to timing pushes. For example, 3 rax marauder will just outright kill you if you play one rax reaper expand, even if you scout it with your first reaper. What you're observing is actually just blind luck guessing games. The reason you open marauder is to blind counter reaper openings. What if the opponent does not open reaper but opens 1 rax FE? They're ahead...etc. TvT is a guessing game early game right now for both players.
I wouldn't say opening marauders puts you that much behind, you get ahead in gas quicker meaning a quicker factory for 1 and in most if not all games you'll be able to scout whether or not they're going reapers as long as you SCV scout.
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Judging from the last few posts, it sounds like tvt early game is currently paper rock scissor? Gaarh...
Let's hope that changes :/
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Eh, I feel it's less rock paper scissors and more like reaper is just better than all the other openings; and reaper wars is even worse to play than ling/bling wars.
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This thread is getting a little dated, but I heard they're buffing reapers again to go faster. I play mostly multiplayer. I just remember the early days of SC2 WoL when every game was reaper reaper everywhere. In team games, you can have one guy go only reaper and just pop into your base any time anywhere and rape all of your workers in 5 seconds flat and move out before your army can move from your natural to your main. With their speed and cliff jumping...it made it hard to ever kill them. I was honestly right about to quit playing the game when they nerfed them. I was kinda hoping they'd just remove them from the game in HotS because I'm fully expecting this level of insanity to come back. At that point I guess I can go back to WoL. Call me a noob or whatever as a diamond 4v4 player, but not everyone is playing GM level 1v1 and able to defend.
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EPT
