EPTThe stalker change in particular makes a lot of sense.
Protoss Identity in SC2: Power and Cost - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
Series7
United States12 Posts
The stalker change in particular makes a lot of sense. | ||
|
Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
On the other hand, my head says getting warp gates as early as they currently are (t1) provides balance issues and promotes deathballs because t1 units have to be weak and t3 units have to be as good as tier 3 units, AND pick up the slack from the bad t1 units. I think making Warp Gates t2 would be the best solution, it gives gateway units viability in the early game to be more powerful, and therefore colossus/ht can get nerfed slightly as well. Also, because I love the Warp Gate mechanic so much, I have wondered why only gateway units can be warped in via warp gates. It would obviously have to be balanced, but imagine warping in a colossus on the field of a carrier. That would be the single most epic aesthetic effect in sc2, and it would feel very protoss - warping in massive war machines with their extremely developed technology is something I could imagine fitting in. Another problem is because colossus die very easily to corruptors/vikings, if you don't have enough to do enough damage before they die you've lost because the gateway units that are left are just not good enough. There are really interesting dynamics about the protoss race that warrant a redesign, but not completely. Warp gate should stay. But not as t1. Warp gate should also affect every production building (even make it t3). I will be watching this discussion closely though I think. | ||
|
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On October 11 2012 06:34 v3chr0 wrote: "Rock, Developer" - + Show Spoiler + Thanks for the post! There is a lot of good detailed feedback here. I don't agree with everything but it's a great discussion. For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry. What makes this worse is that Sentries are hard to use. Guardian Shield isn't too difficult to manage, but Force Fields can be very difficult to use correctly. We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him. I think that Gateway units can be very, very deadly. It's just a matter of when. Stalkers with blink are very powerful and Zealots with charge are very dangerous as well (even against Stim Terrans). But when I fight with my Gateway units against most Terran players I don't yet have these upgrades. I believe that most Protoss players (myself included) feel the need to go Robotics first to scout and to avoid cloaked threats. If we give the Mothership Core someway to detect cloaked units Protoss players should be able to open Twilight Council and upgrade their Gateway units very quickly. This might reduce the Terran stim timing attacks and make it less required for Protoss to go Robo or Templar tech as fast as possible to avoid being crushed by an infantry timing. Though with Widow Mine in the picture I'm not sure how that will change things. Since that is another cloak threat. We will be looking some at the Void Ray soonish. I don't know what if anything we will decide to do with him but your feedback on this unit has certainly been heard. Thanks again for taking the time to write this up. Well, there is the first blue response! FAITH HATH BEEN RESTORED! I dunno... I really dislike his his answer  For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." This line hurts the most | ||
|
Ljas
Finland725 Posts
| ||
|
Ramone
Canada85 Posts
 I'm pretty bad at this game and I still find them fairly simple...more range might be nice to be of use in countering stim-stutter step retreat. | ||
|
Kryt0s
Germany209 Posts
| ||
|
bole
Serbia164 Posts
And it's so boring mechanic to use and to watch from E sport perspective of watching game that one player can control army of other that is so ridiculous...Its not good for game and E sport... Dont make force fields easier to use remove them completely from the game its so boring to watch and to play its not good for the game...fungal have same problem...REMOVE FORCE FIELDS !!! make sentries regenerate shields or something... thx for reading | ||
|
archon256
United States363 Posts
| ||
|
WickedBit
United States343 Posts
Making immortal a slightly stronger dragoon is also a really good idea. Also an anti light stalker might just solve blink stalker allins since they won't be able to overwhelm tanks,roaches or other armoured units so easily anymore due to decreased damage vs them. | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
It is also fairly interesting that you ignored the attack speed of the units, as leaving them out really supports your arguments. A Zealot attacks every 1.2 seconds and a Roach every 2 seconds. That being said a roach is easy to mass because of the 3:1 cost that fits perfectly with base income. You also shouldn't forget about the shields. In BW your army didn't regained alot of "health" after each battle. And now if you micro well you end up regenerating shields even in battle. I think Protoss didn't changed their Identity and only added their dark side to it. Anyway the suggestions were really fun to read, just like the arguments leading there. Especially after a long ZvP, atleast now I know that Zealots and Goons don't protect the Reavers and Templars, but are the actual problems for Zerg t1 units. (ya I know what Goons really are supposed to do against Zerg) | ||
|
Morton
United States152 Posts
very well written and amazingly thought out thread! One thing I would ask is whether some custom mapmaker out there would be so kind as to make a custom with these changes for toss? I would love to see some replays of how these changes played out. again, very nice! | ||
|
Paladia
802 Posts
| ||
|
TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him HAHHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH This game is doomed.gg | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
| ||
|
v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:15 SarcasmMonster wrote: I dunno... I really dislike his his answer This line hurts the most I feel the same. Gateway units were also toned down because of the sentry, but they definitely were also effected by the Warp Gate mechanic, something had to give and it was the units stats. I can see his point, because it is true, but I think it's only half the reason. The faith being restored part is about him seeing the thread in general, his answer wasn't the most promising but at least he read it. I am glad however, that he at least admits/agrees the void ray needs a looking at. Let's hope he took more into consideration... because quite frankly none of these changes are extremely drastic, nothing is really being removed; just stat changes. edit: On October 11 2012 08:08 TheKefka wrote: Rocks answer: HAHHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH This game is doomed.gg He could mean that they are removing forcefield/making it weaker, or giving it something else that is easier to use but less effective. Could go both ways, I'm hoping that's the case anyway. edit2: ^ nvm. lol | ||
|
IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
| ||
|
rUiNati0n
United States1155 Posts
On October 11 2012 08:08 TheKefka wrote: Rocks answer: HAHHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH This game is doomed.gg Man... I wanna have faith in blizzard, but its just so hard. | ||
|
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works. What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade? This might be good because: 1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats. 2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready) 3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army. Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~ -David Kim Phew! Bullet dodged. | ||
|
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
It seems that their supposed solution to Protoss fragility is to make Protoss more fragile. | ||
|
unteqair
United States308 Posts
Thanks for the post! There is a lot of good detailed feedback here. I don't agree with everything but it's a great discussion. For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry. What makes this worse is that Sentries are hard to use. Guardian Shield isn't too difficult to manage, but Force Fields can be very difficult to use correctly. We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him. I think that Gateway units can be very, very deadly. It's just a matter of when. Stalkers with blink are very powerful and Zealots with charge are very dangerous as well (even against Stim Terrans). But when I fight with my Gateway units against most Terran players I don't yet have these upgrades. I believe that most Protoss players (myself included) feel the need to go Robotics first to scout and to avoid cloaked threats. If we give the Mothership Core someway to detect cloaked units Protoss players should be able to open Twilight Council and upgrade their Gateway units very quickly. This might reduce the Terran stim timing attacks and make it less required for Protoss to go Robo or Templar tech as fast as possible to avoid being crushed by an infantry timing. Though with Widow Mine in the picture I'm not sure how that will change things. Since that is another cloak threat. We will be looking some at the Void Ray soonish. I don't know what if anything we will decide to do with him but your feedback on this unit has certainly been heard. Thanks again for taking the time to write this up. That reveals a lot. I'm not so sure about all of that, but we'll see. I think that Protoss would be more fun to watch if it were less Stalker-heavy, so I like the idea of making Stargate units like the Void Ray and Phoenix stronger. FF's are not fun to watch. Stalker balls are not fun to watch. I wish he'd step away from these and add powerful combat units to the Robotics Facility and Stargate. The Widow Mine is the kind of unit the Protoss should have; it would help tremendously to break up their balls and to lessen the turtling. | ||
| ||
