EPTChampions League/Europa League Thread 2012-13 - Page 80
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28853 Posts
my impression is that latin american countries are followers of la liga to a much greater degree than people from elsewhere. and EPL is followed by the rest of the world because mostly all young people have a rudimentary or greater understanding of english. adding onto that there are some events through football-history which have caused people of certain countries to be particularly fond of a particular league or game. for example in Norway we were first introduced to international football through weekly matches every saturday from the English First Division back in like 1973. this created a norwegian supporter culture which has shown itself as thoroughly hereditary - kids very frequently start supporting the same team their dad supported. Adding onto that, during the 90s, where norway was enjoying (for us) incredible international footballing success through the performances of our national team and Rosenborg, which created a surge in interest, which coincided with manchester united signing 3 norwegian players and among them the hero Solskjær whom no person has ever been able to say anything remotely not-positive towards, which has gained them an incredible norwegian fanbase. to give numbers over english teams with most norwegian supporters; 1. Manchester United 43520 2. Liverpool 36242 3. Arsenal 6239 4. Leeds United 4168 which is funny because you can see that united was the team getting the motherload of the 90s growth with arsenal a distant second, whereas liverpool got most in the 70s with leeds as another distant second. I've also come to realize that dutch fans really like barcelona (and for that reason follow La Liga to a greater degree than their region and preferred language would indicate) - but this is also explainable through cryuffs status as national hero coupled with the dutch memories of rinus michel's total football and barcelona being the modern embodiment of this style of play. I find it likely that many countries have been influenced in similar ways. not doing any digging, but I'd assume if you looked at african countries, ones with french colonial history would support Ligue 1 to a (significantly) greater degree than those with english colonial history. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On March 15 2013 02:27 sc4k wrote: By the way can anyone from Germany explain why the hell there is no beast team from Berlin, a city with 3m residents? Dortmund having a tiny population of 500k and Munich 1.3m. What's the deal people? the distribution of "football power" in germany has mostly historic reasons. in the early 19th century, when football was becoming big in germany, the "ruhrpott area" where, e.g., schalke and dortmund are located, was the industrial center and one of the richest regions in germany, with tons of blue-collar workers. (these are traditionally more into football than white-collar, in particular during the early days of football.) the region has been on the decline since the 1950s, but is still full of crazy football enthusiasts. the high density of clubs from this region throughout the top 4 german leagues also means that there are many derbies. most of the teams from the ruhrpott are struggling today, but the two top teams, schalke and dortmund are today absorbing lots of fan potential of the region. they can build on the fanbase and economical power of large portions of the rhein-ruhr metropolitan area - which has around 10 million inhabitants. berlin was the capital and largest city with the largest industrial base during the early 19th century, up until ww2. but after the war, berlin was a divided city. this had several effects: first of all, the division of the city meant that no single big team could get the support of the whole city. second, the eastern part of berlin lay in the former GDR, whose league didnt have the quality and money to breed a top team. additionally, living conditions and freedom of movement prevented top players from going to berlin clubs. clubs in the western part of berlin lay in an isolated city with some 1.8 million inhabitants that, due to its location on the other side of the iron curtain, didnt attract lots of companies and money. the difficult travel to west berlin also hampered away fans. third and most importantly, the division of berlin made most large companies leave berlin either before the end of the war or during the time between the war and the construction of the berlin wall. this is still felt today as berlin is a very poor city with an industrial base that is surprisingly small compared to the city's population count. this lack of funding makes it hard for berlin football clubs to find good sponsors. and, as already pointed out, berlin has strong franchises in many other sports that have a shorter tradition in germany, but are gaining popularity quickly, like handball, hockey and basketball. this further draws away fans and sponsors from football clubs in berlin. now to munich: during the first half of last century, bavaria was still predominantly agricultural and trailing behind the ruhrpott in the west and berlin in the northeast in terms of living standard. this initial disadvantage turned into an asset however, when the coal and metal industry in the ruhrpott went on decline. because munich had lots of free areas around the city, many companies that left berlin during or shortly after the war moved to munich. additionally, bavaria and the munich region in particular were quickly developing a modern high-tech industry based around electronics, services, research and pharmaceuticals. today, munich is an incredibly rich city with an extremely strong industrial base. the gpd of the munich region is around € 130 billion, while that of berlin is around € 100-110 billion, even though the munich region has a population of around 2 mil compared to the roughly 4 mil of berlin. this means that both the fans and the companies in munich are much richer on average than those in berlin, so that bayern munich can generate more revenue from its location than berlin. and you got to keep in mind that financially powerful sponsors and fans are very important to a team's success in modern football. another important reason for bayern's success and domination over german football are the olympic games that were held in munich in 1972. for these olympics, the olympic stadium munich was constructed by the federal government and the bavarian government and the city of munich. after the olympics, bayern could move in there and basically got a very modern stadium with a large capacity "for free". this was during the 1970s, a time when ticket sales were still by far the largest source of revenue for football clubs. this gave bayern lots of economical leverage over its national competition. another reason is that at the same time, during the early- to mid 70s, bayern had the luck of having found an extremely talented squad with players like beckenbauer, müller, maier and hoeneß. this led to 3 consecutive national titles, followed by 3 consecutive champions league titles. from then on, bayern also gained lots of followers from all over germany thanks to their success. the last piece of the puzzle is that bayern was managed extremely well in the following decades, much better than almost all other national competitors. all these points led to bayern being germany's undisputed number one. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On March 15 2013 05:20 Ysellian wrote: It's not. It's a part of the rules I really hate as well, extra time should start with a clean slate. I just read that CONCACAF and AFC don't apply the away goal rule after extra time but UEFA does :o | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28853 Posts
judging based on skimming this report the team getting home field in game two has something like a 54-46 advantage, statistically. | ||
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TerransHill
Germany572 Posts
On March 15 2013 02:27 sc4k wrote: By the way can anyone from Germany explain why the hell there is no beast team from Berlin, a city with 3m residents? Dortmund having a tiny population of 500k and Munich 1.3m. What's the deal people? Yes its a pity. Hertha BSC actually wasnt that bad in the 2000ths, playing euro league quit alot. Too bad they got badly managed (ironically by Dieter Hoeneß, the brother of Uli Hoeneß who was the manager of Bayern and a very good one.) Now they became an elevator club. But well, at least theyre going to be promoted this season once again. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:22 sc4k wrote: Wow Black Gun...that was very informative...thanks a lot. Also, you can be very proud of your English ability. It's crazy that you are typing in a second language, just seems like an English speaker has written it. Wow, thank you! On March 15 2013 08:42 TerransHill wrote: good post black gun Yes its a pity. Hertha BSC actually wasnt that bad in the 2000ths, playing euro league quit alot. Too bad they got badly managed (ironically by Dieter Hoeneß, the brother of Uli Hoeneß who was the manager of Bayern and a very good one.) Now they became an elevator club. But well, at least theyre going to be promoted this season once again. true dat. but hertha will have a hard time avoiding immediate relegation next season. since many smaller teams like hannover, mainz and freiburg seem to have stabilized and established themselves in the bundesliga, while fürth, hoffenheim and potentially augsburg get relegated, there are only some few candidates left for relegation - and next season, hertha will be one of them. | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: having the home field in match #2 is beneficial even when extra time is considered a continuation of the previous score. judging based on skimming this report the team getting home field in game two has something like a 54-46 advantage, statistically. Especially relevant: "When looking only at the matches that involved extra time(without penalties, n=186), there is a significant advantage for the second leg home team. The probability of the second leg home team winning, adjusted for differences in team ability, is 66.42%. This proportion is significantly different from 50% at P < 0.001. In the case of equality at the end of extra time (n = 148), there also seems to be an advantage to take penalties on the home ground with home teams winning 57.33% (P < 0.10) of the time." They control for higher seeds usually getting the 2nd leg home, which was what I thought could be missed. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
http://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/11483/ they also account for the strength of the teams by using the difference in their uefa coefficient and for the fact that the group winners, which can on average be expected to be stronger than runners-up (runner-ups?!...), always have 2nd leg home advantage in the ro16. for those who are too lazy to read it: they did not find any significant effects except that of the standardized difference in uefa coefficients of the teams involved. basically, this means that the probability of team A advancing over team B can completely be explained by the relative strength of these teams, the order of home and away games is not significant. edit: note that this does not contradict a possible advantage of the home team in case of extra time or penalty shootout since the majority of knockout matches end after regular playtime. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:54 Black Gun wrote: Wow, thank you! true dat. but hertha will have a hard time avoiding immediate relegation next season. since many smaller teams like hannover, mainz and freiburg seem to have stabilized and established themselves in the bundesliga, while fürth, hoffenheim and potentially augsburg get relegated, there are only some few candidates left for relegation - and next season, hertha will be one of them. Hertha Berlin have a pretty good head coach (Jos Luhukay I think) now though, don't they? IIRC he's the same guy who got Augsburg to the top flight for the first time a couple years ago. | ||
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Derity
Germany2952 Posts
On March 15 2013 13:25 Ferrose wrote: Hertha Berlin have a pretty good head coach (Jos Luhukay I think) now though, don't they? IIRC he's the same guy who got Augsburg to the top flight for the first time a couple years ago. Look at Hoffenheim... players and coaches ... well. money helps only so far. Coaches are only a short-term solution. Management is what keeps clubs on top e.g. Bayern Munich (not sure, but i think they already paid off their new stadium) Especially in Germany where financial regulations are way more restrictive. Clubs like Real Madrid or ManU would play 3rd class because they are in the red... | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On March 15 2013 14:00 Derity wrote: Look at Hoffenheim... players and coaches ... well. money helps only so far. Coaches are only a short-term solution. Management is what keeps clubs on top e.g. Bayern Munich (not sure, but i think they already paid off their new stadium) Especially in Germany where financial regulations are way more restrictive. Clubs like Real Madrid or ManU would play 3rd class because they are in the red... Something my dad asked about/pointed out: doesn't having the strict regulations in Germany basically ensure that Bayern will never be challenged as the top dogs, even in the long run? It's basically impossible for anyone to build a brand from the ground up to match the revenue potential they have in place now, they have too much market share, visibility and infrastructure. And there's all the regulations that prevent splashing money to kickstart growth? How can they ever be given a sustained challenge? | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On March 15 2013 14:39 ZapRoffo wrote: Something my dad asked about/pointed out: doesn't having the strict regulations in Germany basically ensure that Bayern will never be challenged as the top dogs, even in the long run? It's basically impossible for anyone to build a brand from the ground up to match the revenue potential they have in place now, they have too much market share, visibility and infrastructure. And there's all the regulations that prevent splashing money to kickstart growth? How can they ever be given a sustained challenge? thats the point: a sheikh or oligarch cant just pump half a billion into a team and dethrone bayern within 5 years. and thats a good thing. the only way to dethrone bayern is to have more success than them on the pitch and a better management than them - both for a sustained period of time. by having more success, the new challenger would slowly but steadily build up the strength of his own brand and also steal some glory hunter fans from bayern. a good example is borussia dortmund: in the past two years, they had more success than bayern and did a better job with evolving their playstyle and good transfers. this season, 'the empire strikes back', but that was expected. if dortmund could keep up what they have done the past 2 seasons for the next decade and maybe win 3 championships during that decade, they might close the gap to bayern substantially. to not just draw level with them but to actually claim the german football throne for themselves, they would then need another decade of excellent work. in my opinion, all that is just how it should be. bayern built up their position through several decades of excellent work. it is just if a challenger has to do the same to dethrone them. (all this is ofc assuming that bayern roughly keep the standard of their management, transfers and so on; i.e. they dont fuck up by themselves, keep up the good work, there's just suddenly someone who does an even better job.) | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Europa League Quarter Finals! ![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/52914.png) Chelsea![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/59856.png) Basel![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/82818.png) Rubin Kazan![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/1652.png) Tottenham Hotspur![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/52973.png) Lazio![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/59324.png) Newcastle United![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/50147.png) Benfica![[image loading]](http://www.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/52692.png) Fenerbahçe | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
@Pandemona, you went to Chelsea right? Congrats on a great win  | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
On March 15 2013 03:55 Stratos_speAr wrote: Lets not get crazy here. Barca and Bayern throw around both their name and their money to gobble up as much talent as possible. They're part of the problem. But there is one huge difference, at least for Bayern, not sure about Barcelona: Bayern only spend the amount of money that they earned by themselves through a great conomic management, numerous national and international championships, high number of spectators, marketing etc. That is completely different to just letting a billionaire overtake your club and let him pay everything out of his wallet. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18696 Posts
Hoeneß is not a very nice person but what he has achieved with Munich is unique. They own pretty much everything in their club, have no loans whatsoever. It took him years and years to achieve this, but anyone who hates Bayern because they are rich is stupid. Their money is hard-earned. Every club in the world wants to be in Bayern's position (yes, EVERY SINGLE CLUB). God I hate Bayern for their arrogance but what can I do against it, they DESERVED it through hard work. | ||
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mevshero
911 Posts
10 minutes to go. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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