Off-Topic General Discussion - Page 2490

Post a Reply

Prev 1 2488 2489 2490 2491 2492 5162 Next

WaveofShadow

Canada31495 Posts

July 15 2014 23:25 GMT

#49781

Scip is this you?

Tooplark

United States3977 Posts

July 15 2014 23:28 GMT

#49782

I gotta say, I find the Smogon OU bans pretty questionable too. GSC had Snorlax on every single team, but it was still alright to play and the problems with it were more based on wonky mechanics and a general lack of raw power.

Also, I don't think Evasion Clause is that important any more, honestly. Sure, the RNG element is frustrating, but there are all kinds of ways to deal with evasion and there are plenty of extremely RNG-based techniques in the game already with arguably much more power. Sure, maybe some mons would have to sacrifice a moveslot for Shock Wave or Aerial Ace or one of the other guaranteed-hit moves, or maybe actually use Lock On, or Mind Reader, or Gravity. But evasion is hardly an overwhelming threat to the metagame. Honestly, like Brightpowder and Sandstorm/Sandy Veil, it was probably just banned because enough people didn't like it. Unfortunately, thanks to the precedent set by Gen I, Evasion was banned, but Swagger/Foul Play Liepard (much more threatening, just as RNG-dependant) is allowed, Scald's game-changing 30% burn chance is a-ok, and people still use 70% accuracy moves without batting an eye. Pokemon is an RNG-based game, but there are ways to deal with the randomness, and I don't think Smogon's solution of banning arbitrary luck-based strategies is a very good one.

Scip

Czech Republic11293 Posts

July 15 2014 23:49 GMT

#49783

On July 16 2014 08:25 WaveofShadow wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlDFjaDZmk
Scip is this you?

?????

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

July 15 2014 23:53 GMT

#49784

Speaking of civ5, I kind of want to play it these days.

Gahlo

United States35174 Posts

July 15 2014 23:56 GMT

#49785

Breeding is a pain without a ditto safari.

MoonBear

Straight outta Johto18973 Posts

July 15 2014 23:58 GMT

#49786

On July 16 2014 08:28 Tooplark wrote:
Also, I don't think Evasion Clause is that important any more, honestly. Sure, the RNG element is frustrating, but there are all kinds of ways to deal with evasion and there are plenty of extremely RNG-based techniques in the game already with arguably much more power. Sure, maybe some mons would have to sacrifice a moveslot for Shock Wave or Aerial Ace or one of the other guaranteed-hit moves, or maybe actually use Lock On, or Mind Reader, or Gravity. But evasion is hardly an overwhelming threat to the metagame. Honestly, like Brightpowder and Sandstorm/Sandy Veil, it was probably just banned because enough people didn't like it. Unfortunately, thanks to the precedent set by Gen I, Evasion was banned, but Swagger/Foul Play Liepard (much more threatening, just as RNG-dependant) is allowed, Scald's game-changing 30% burn chance is a-ok, and people still use 70% accuracy moves without batting an eye. Pokemon is an RNG-based game, but there are ways to deal with the randomness, and I don't think Smogon's solution of banning arbitrary luck-based strategies is a very good one.

Evasion is really, really, really stupid. Like, really stupid. If I played Minimize Softboiled Wish Toxic Blissey or something it would be absolutely stupid and you'd literally have to run an anti-Blissey Pokemon and Blissey itself in every single team because it's so ridiculous. And since everyone needs to do so it warps play around the issue really heavily and rapidly descends into ridiculous games.
Secondly, choosing to use low accuracy moves is your own choice. No one forces you to do so. This is the key difference between low accuracy and evasion - the issue of player agency. You chose to use Thunder or whatever so if you miss it's because you chose that trade off between power and accuracy. You didn't choose if someone decided they wanted to turn the game into a series of coin flips.
Some RNG in a game is acceptable. Richard Garfield (creator of MtG, Netrunner and more) has written on this subject many times and it's worth reading his articles/listening to his talks on the issue. But the summary is that some RNG in a game is good, but you also need to also give players a way to control the RNG to an extent. The player needs agency. Choosing your movesets is agency. Getting wrecked by no Evasion or Sleep Clause is not player agency. In fact it's the very opposite; you're taking control away from the player. The issue of things like Burn chance is similar to say top-decking in card games. Sometimes you get rolled by RNG, but you can play around it and control it. It's the same idea in a lot of top games where you accept there's variance but if you're good you know how to deal with it and control it.
Like I have said before, these things are voted upon by skilled players. If you don't have enough elo to qualify for voting, then too bad you don't get a say about balance. Their main purpose is to create a set of rules that allows for an environment with decent game because Pokemon is inherently wildly imbalanced in all aspects. The rules are arbitrary because heck any rules you create will be arbitrary. But there's a good transparent system as to how they're made. And again, if you seriously have a problem then don't play with these rules. Smogon doesn't force you to play their rules.
Also, for the record, Prankster/Swagger/Foul Play got banned a few months ago.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

July 16 2014 00:07 GMT

#49787

But how can you play around Burn in a way that's not accessible wrt evasion? Because of moves like Rest? Iirc there exist moves that delete any buffs on the target, right?

MoonBear

Straight outta Johto18973 Posts

July 16 2014 00:16 GMT

#49788

On July 16 2014 09:07 Alaric wrote:
But how can you play around Burn in a way that's not accessible wrt evasion? Because of moves like Rest? Iirc there exist moves that delete any buffs on the target, right?

Sure Rest works but it's not common. If you're super concerned about status effects on your sweeper then you can give it Lum Berry. Or run a cleric Pokemon that has Heal Bell/Aromatherapy to remove status effects. Or just don't switch in your Physical Sweeper into a Pokemon with a burn move. I mean, in games like Hearthstone (or other card games) you have to play around the cards your opponent has instead of running all your threats into their removal/counterss and just getting wrecked. If you do then it's your fault for playing so loosely and walking right into it. The same applies to Pokemon. If you play loose an fast and give up openings that get you punished that's not your opponent's fault.

And the reverse is true. For example, let's say your opponent has a monster Physical Sweeper you can't handle and your team doesn't have a counter for it. So you set up a scenario where you get a chance to Burn/Paralyse it to reduce the threat. Ok maybe you had a little bit of luck but the set up to get there was not luck. It's the same thing in card games where people say things like "Oh Craig Jones just got lucky here" or something. Sure, but he also set himself up for the top deck.

WaveofShadow

Canada31495 Posts

July 16 2014 00:23 GMT

#49789

OH ITS A FUCKING SMASH TERM

Gahlo

United States35174 Posts

July 16 2014 00:24 GMT

#49790

On July 16 2014 09:23 WaveofShadow wrote:
OH ITS A FUCKING SMASH TERM

What is?

onlywonderboy

United States23745 Posts

July 16 2014 00:27 GMT

#49791

On July 16 2014 09:23 WaveofShadow wrote:
OH ITS A FUCKING SMASH TERM

LOL

killerdog

Denmark6522 Posts

July 16 2014 00:28 GMT

#49792

On July 16 2014 08:49 Scip wrote:

Show nested quote +

?????

Mic quality is much too god for it to be scip

On July 16 2014 08:53 Sufficiency wrote:
Speaking of civ5, I kind of want to play it these days.

Someone should arrange a tllol civ5 multiplayer game. It's holiday, so who needs sleep schedules~

edit: why is the quote broken o.0

Tooplark

United States3977 Posts

July 16 2014 00:28 GMT

#49793

I mean, if they have a bulky water type you can predict that it's gonna use scald, and you know that if you switch into scald there's a 30% chance you'll get burned. So you can play around it by not switching your physical attackers into bulky water types, or take the 70% chance that you'll be ok.

Also, Body Slam and a few other moves are a guaranteed hit for double damage on a Minimized pokemon. So an anti-Blissey pokemon is as simple as a reasonable physical attacker with Body Slam. A Snorlax with no attack investment and a neutral nature does 50-60%. EDIT: I should make it clear that I've never actually played against a Minimize Blissey, so this is pure theorymon. DOUBLE EDIT: Double Team doesn't have the same properties as Minimize regarding Body Slam, so Double Team Blissey would be pretty frustrating.

I mean, that's why I don't play on Smogon. A group of people, who are much better at Pokemon than I, picked what dumb things they're ok with. I'm just complaining about their decisions, with absolutely 0 expectation that they'll listen to me.