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On December 02 2024 18:41 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 16:53 Harris1st wrote:On December 02 2024 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:
Really says a lot about both Clem's lack of confidence in his TvT and the state of TvP that Clem feels he has a better chance of beating Gumigod in the match up that reddit INSISTS is completely broken in Terran's favor, rather than facing him in a mirror match up.
Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent. I remember Clem saying that his Protoss his just marginally weaker than his Terran and that he could beat anyone with his Protoss (even Serral) Did he actually say this? I recall him or someone else saying during this HSC that his PvZ is substantially weaker than his PvT and PvP. As impressive as Clem's recent play has been, assuming he can beat Serral in a complete series with his offrace, in PvZ out of all matchups, seems preposterous.
I don't remember the whole conversations but I'm reasonably sure he said he beat Serral PvZ on the ladder a couple of times and thinks he is almost 50:50 with Serral there.
It was while casting a game together with Rotti some time on Sunday. I'll try to find it 
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That was a great grand finals ! Too bad it didn't reset to go to the next Bo3 but it was still really fun with tons of back and forth. The amount of micro and the unique way Clem engaged and used his stalkers to gain value was really cool. It was also really cool how much he stuck to Colossus for his splash and how he showed you can get more out of them if you micro well with them (and even more if he didn't sloppily lose several haha). Also he would often chase after the bio when you'd think most other Protoss would back up. Don't see other Protoss fighting the way he does, wonder if it'll change anything!
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Would have liked that clem won, gg gumigod.
I'm just a bit surprised to not see complain about his race switch considering the uproar against reynor.
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On December 02 2024 21:06 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 17:22 Nebuchad wrote:
The strategy makes a lot of sense. If you are weaker in TvT and okay at PvT, and your opponent is good at TvT and weaker in TvP, it's a pretty simple equation.
To say that he can beat anyone with his Pvx, though, that's likely just delusion. Similar to how Reynor felt about his protoss in the beginning. If he truly believes that, reality will catch up to him. Nah can't really compare the two IMO. Reynor was mostly just goofing and avoiding a specific MU while Clem seems actually serious about his Protoss and is laddering a ton with it
I think Reynor was also very serious about picking Protoss against Zerg, but it just didnt work out for him in the end.
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On December 02 2024 22:15 stilt wrote:
Would have liked that clem won, gg gumigod.
I'm just a bit surprised to not see complain about his race switch considering the uproar against reynor.
Didn't see the finals yet but in the semi finals Gumi didn't even realize Clem switched races until he saw Clem's scouting Probe and he looked hella confused lol. Someone really should have given him a heads up
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gg to all players, really unfortunate to have so many lags during the event.
There were still lot of interesting games
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On December 02 2024 22:39 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 21:06 Harris1st wrote:On December 02 2024 17:22 Nebuchad wrote:
The strategy makes a lot of sense. If you are weaker in TvT and okay at PvT, and your opponent is good at TvT and weaker in TvP, it's a pretty simple equation.
To say that he can beat anyone with his Pvx, though, that's likely just delusion. Similar to how Reynor felt about his protoss in the beginning. If he truly believes that, reality will catch up to him. Nah can't really compare the two IMO. Reynor was mostly just goofing and avoiding a specific MU while Clem seems actually serious about his Protoss and is laddering a ton with it I think Reynor was also very serious about picking Protoss against Zerg, but it just didnt work out for him in the end.
Yeah he definitely was serious, he just started struggling when the top Zergs adapted to his PvZ playstyle and started exploiting his playstyle specifically.
Could imagine it will be similar with Clem, there's a difference reaching high MMR mostly playing random opponents and playing bo5s in tournaments with preparation
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On December 02 2024 23:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 22:39 tigera6 wrote:On December 02 2024 21:06 Harris1st wrote:On December 02 2024 17:22 Nebuchad wrote:
The strategy makes a lot of sense. If you are weaker in TvT and okay at PvT, and your opponent is good at TvT and weaker in TvP, it's a pretty simple equation.
To say that he can beat anyone with his Pvx, though, that's likely just delusion. Similar to how Reynor felt about his protoss in the beginning. If he truly believes that, reality will catch up to him. Nah can't really compare the two IMO. Reynor was mostly just goofing and avoiding a specific MU while Clem seems actually serious about his Protoss and is laddering a ton with it I think Reynor was also very serious about picking Protoss against Zerg, but it just didnt work out for him in the end. Yeah he definitely was serious, he just started struggling when the top Zergs adapted to his PvZ playstyle and started exploiting his playstyle specifically. Could imagine it will be similar with Clem, there's a difference reaching high MMR mostly playing random opponents and playing bo5s in tournaments with preparation
That tends to be the case for Protoss just in general. It's a race designed for the ladder not for tournament play.
When the player is working with a fresh meta or is unfamiliar Protoss tends to be stronger. It's when the player playing it becomes studied and figured out that all of a sudden it starts to lose its viability at the top level. Becoming predictable is the worst death sentence for a Protoss player.
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France12876 Posts
MaxPax seems to be doing fine playing the same stuff, albeit in low stakes tournaments
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On December 03 2024 01:27 Poopi wrote:
MaxPax seems to be doing fine playing the same stuff, albeit in low stakes tournaments
I think he has a very solid shot at winning the next regionals
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This would be both huge and unfortunate - the latter if there are any LANs in future this regionals would qualify for.
Not having a regional champion in a season "finals" would be weird.
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The games were good. Finals were really fun to watch. I absolutely love homestory cup and taketv. I hope everyone had a good time overall
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TakeTV and HSC are MVPs of the scene, that's for sure.
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Northern Ireland25286 Posts
On December 02 2024 21:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
That was a great grand finals ! Too bad it didn't reset to go to the next Bo3 but it was still really fun with tons of back and forth. The amount of micro and the unique way Clem engaged and used his stalkers to gain value was really cool. It was also really cool how much he stuck to Colossus for his splash and how he showed you can get more out of them if you micro well with them (and even more if he didn't sloppily lose several haha). Also he would often chase after the bio when you'd think most other Protoss would back up. Don't see other Protoss fighting the way he does, wonder if it'll change anything!
I think the novelty of seeing an off-race, and a very good off-race in a big match is seeing folks going a little overboard.
I didn’t see a huge amount of Clem’s undoubted execution coming to bear in any new way, though he played some good games for sure it wasn’t in games where I saw him executing better than a herO, peak Trap, MaxPax etc.
Very strong though and definitely looks a viable option for him, can’t understate how impressive that is I just also wouldn’t overrate his execution versus recent top Toss players.
He also didn’t show a huge amount of range, but I’m not sure that that necessarily means he doesn’t have it. Reynor’s similarly impressive and feared PvZ was really strong until people became familiar with his style and started countering it in advance
On December 03 2024 01:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 01:27 Poopi wrote:
MaxPax seems to be doing fine playing the same stuff, albeit in low stakes tournaments I think he has a very solid shot at winning the next regionals
He’s not beating Serral in a big playoff rubber IMO, but he definitely can do it if he can avoid that matchup. He trades pretty decently with Clem, and Reynor’s been slumping for a long while now, and in that slump his PvZ has been particularly unreliable against top players.
That’s if we get a new set of regionals, fingers very much crossed.
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Yeah a likely reason he stuck to a similar playstyle + comp relying on Colossus etc. is to try to compensate for him not being a Protoss main, being able to have multiple games playing the same comp/style especially when it was giving close games would make it easier to make the slight improvements needed to win and make it easier to pinpoint what adjustments he may need to make to win.
Looking back, I just realized the final game of the first Bo5 vs Gumiho had him successfully blinking on top of the tank push and killing the tank. In the grands, he did the same on the same map, but this time Gumiho had the medivac and dodged 2-3 volleys of stalkers which sunk my heart but it gave that starcraft dramatic goodness that reminds me of the more competitive story-filled years of SC2's past. I can't even be mad that's how Clem lost because it was sick by gumiho.
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United States33388 Posts
On December 02 2024 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:
Really says a lot about both Clem's lack of confidence in his TvT and the state of TvP that Clem feels he has a better chance of beating Gumigod in the match up that reddit INSISTS is completely broken in Terran's favor, rather than facing him in a mirror match up.
Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent.
Felt like a bit of a one-off, since the patch is relatively new (even with PTR time) and GuMiho basically re-released his Cylcone mech style out of nowhere. On top of that, GuMiho's TvP isn't that great, and Clem already has experience beating him in the qualifiers with Protoss. HSC is relatively low stakes compared to other events, so this is a good a place as any to test your (allegedly super-high MMR) off-race in a competitive environment.
Still, it bears watching to see if he starts bringing it out more often in bigger events. Still, I gotta think it's limited to a handful of Terrans whose have poor TvP—it seems like an awful idea to try this against someone like ByuN or Maru.
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Northern Ireland25286 Posts
On December 03 2024 05:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Yeah a likely reason he stuck to a similar playstyle + comp relying on Colossus etc. is to try to compensate for him not being a Protoss main, being able to have multiple games playing the same comp/style especially when it was giving close games would make it easier to make the slight improvements needed to win and make it easier to pinpoint what adjustments he may need to make to win.
Looking back, I just realized the final game of the first Bo5 vs Gumiho had him successfully blinking on top of the tank push and killing the tank. In the grands, he did the same on the same map, but this time Gumiho had the medivac and dodged 2-3 volleys of stalkers which sunk my heart but it gave that starcraft dramatic goodness that reminds me of the more competitive story-filled years of SC2's past. I can't even be mad that's how Clem lost because it was sick by gumiho.
I think you saw quite a lot of what makes Toss so fragile in this series, especially in that matchup. It’s very difficult to split armies optimally in the mid game T aggression phase, and taking certain engagements you can either clean it up pretty soundly, or take game-ending damage.
This isn’t a balance whine so much, I think if Toss makes the right calls time and time again and doesn’t make a big blunder they can still be very competitive, but it’s on an absolute knife-edge
I’ll be interested to see what the meta starts looking like when/if a proper tournament cycle returns and we see more top tosses in action too
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The main thing that's currently missing is either the templar build or, if you can't do a templar build because the tank timing is too strong, the transition point into templars. Probably someone like Astrea will figure that out and only once it's mapped people like Showtime and Maxpax will do it.
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On December 02 2024 21:09 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 18:41 Antithesis wrote:On December 02 2024 16:53 Harris1st wrote:On December 02 2024 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:
Really says a lot about both Clem's lack of confidence in his TvT and the state of TvP that Clem feels he has a better chance of beating Gumigod in the match up that reddit INSISTS is completely broken in Terran's favor, rather than facing him in a mirror match up.
Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent. I remember Clem saying that his Protoss his just marginally weaker than his Terran and that he could beat anyone with his Protoss (even Serral) Did he actually say this? I recall him or someone else saying during this HSC that his PvZ is substantially weaker than his PvT and PvP. As impressive as Clem's recent play has been, assuming he can beat Serral in a complete series with his offrace, in PvZ out of all matchups, seems preposterous. I don't remember the whole conversations but I'm reasonably sure he said he beat Serral PvZ on the ladder a couple of times and thinks he is almost 50:50 with Serral there. It was while casting a game together with Rotti some time on Sunday. I'll try to find it
If that's true, it's amazing. Would be interesting to hear exactly what Clem said.
But I find it hard to believe. Even considering that ladder is different from a tournament setting, going 50:50 against Serral in PvZ would effectively make Clem the best protoss player in the world in this regard. Neither herO, nor MaxPax, nor any other protoss is particularly close to that number. At EWC, herO cumulatively went 25:75 (2-6) against Serral, and that was his best result in a long time. Middle-of-the-pack protosses like Harstem can go years without even winning a map. I cannot imagine Clem's offrace being this much better.
Then again, maybe Clem was referring to a relatively brief and recent time frame where he has been pumping out games like crazy and Serral just returned from his break after the military service. That might be possible.
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United States33388 Posts
On December 03 2024 07:11 Nebuchad wrote:
The main thing that's currently missing is either the templar build or, if you can't do a templar build because the tank timing is too strong, the transition point into templars. Probably someone like Astrea will figure that out and only once it's mapped people like Showtime and Maxpax will do it.
It's not 'missing'—it did fine in a bunch of PTR tournament games. I wouldn't index too hard off of a couple of games from HSC.
Now, I will say that from what I've watched, 2 Robo + Gateways seems to have remained 'standard' mid-game for PvT, and some players like ShoWTimE will basically play it 99% of the time. But if you look at players like herO or Classic, they're much more willing to vary things up. I do have a small worry that Robo-Gateway will become too prevalent as the mid-game comp as the meta gets figured out, but we'll have to wait and see.
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EPT
