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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
Schedule: November 29-30 start time is 12:00 GMT (+00:00) // Dec 1 is 12:15 GMT (+00:00)
Streams: TakeTV (main English stream) + check TL.net sidebar when live Players and Initial Groups: ![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/homestorycup/hsc26groups_1.png) Stream Schedule | ||
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Azhrak
Finland1196 Posts
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bulldozer06701
124 Posts
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kennytennyson2
31 Posts
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Kreuger
Sweden721 Posts
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hjpalpha
Germany339 Posts
On November 28 2024 03:08 Kreuger wrote: Group C will be a fun one i hope all the groups will bring fun | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden721 Posts
Ofcourse :p Meant that I think this one will be the most "fun" in most thrilling which two players will move on | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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hjpalpha
Germany339 Posts
On November 28 2024 13:14 Waxangel wrote: Going to the 2-of-6 advance format does make the group stage more interesting. Compared to some of the older tournaments where the groups could feel like a formality, there's some real tension in the second place races in this tournament. and having 6 player groups instead of 8 player groups makes it way easier to administrate too, like with this format:
overall it imo is heavily preferable (and it is no pseudo-swiss abomination) | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
THANK YOU FOR SAVING ESPORTS TAKETV! First for me seeing the new patch live in action | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On November 28 2024 13:14 Waxangel wrote: Going to the 2-of-6 advance format does make the group stage more interesting. Compared to some of the older tournaments where the groups could feel like a formality, there's some real tension in the second place races in this tournament. Yeah, C is the only group that really feels like a formality (no offense to big Gabe, but unless Reynor is slacking hard he doesn't have much hope.) Showtime is playing well and pretty favored to get 2nd in B imo, but A (Gumiho is clearly the best player in that group, but him losing to Skillous and Nightmare is plausible) and the second spot in D are wide open. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On November 28 2024 13:14 Waxangel wrote: Going to the 2-of-6 advance format does make the group stage more interesting. Compared to some of the older tournaments where the groups could feel like a formality, there's some real tension in the second place races in this tournament. Can't wait for Maru to bomb out in the group stages | ||
Poopi
France12880 Posts
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On November 29 2024 03:55 Durnuu wrote: Can't wait for Maru to bomb out in the group stages Wouldn’t be surprised since it’s outside of Korea | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On November 29 2024 07:15 Blitzball04 wrote: Wouldn’t be surprised since it’s outside of Korea When has maru bombed out in groups outside korea? | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On November 29 2024 09:40 lokol4890 wrote: When has maru bombed out in groups outside korea? Yeah Maru usually advances from groups and makes a strong playoffs run, he's got a ton of 2nd places (a blessing and a curse lol) We haven't seen him play in a long time, I wonder what kind of shape he's in | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
I'm probably wrong. | ||
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ekojs
16 Posts
On November 29 2024 18:50 jack_less wrote: my feeling is that reynor won't make it through the group phase. I'm probably wrong. Gabe could definitely beat Reynor, especially if Reynor hasn't been practicing much. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On November 29 2024 03:55 Durnuu wrote: Can't wait for Maru to bomb out in the group stages hmmm... | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
Cowardly Clem is gonna win his group to dodge Maru  | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
On November 30 2024 07:27 Nakajin wrote: Maru has the TaeJa-Inno HSC cheat code, if you are akward enough you won't get distracted by all the socializing. How dare you speak of the goat like that! Glad he 5-0d but the big dogs will be in playoffs | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On November 30 2024 07:35 Poopi wrote: How dare you speak of the goat like that! Glad he 5-0d but the big dogs will be in playoffs You're right, I take it back. Inno wasn't akward, he was just too cool for the crowd. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On November 30 2024 08:19 Nakajin wrote: You're right, I take it back. Inno wasn't akward, he was just too cool for the crowd. Inno has this kind of smirky, shitlord vibe going that came out more and more the longer he was around. I quite enjoy it I gotta say Maru’s just incredibly boring personality wise, always has been, still is. But hey I might trade some of my ‘engaging’ personality for the ability to be that bloody good at StarCraft! | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States654 Posts
On November 30 2024 09:37 Poopi wrote: INno had the reputation of a "robot" personnality wise but afaik he was quite vocal / balance whining and stuff in his streams in KR language? Plus that smirk was awesome to see, too bad he choose not to play again after his service If I am not mistaken Inno having too much fun analyzing league of legends, LOL. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On November 30 2024 08:56 WombaT wrote: Inno has this kind of smirky, shitlord vibe going that came out more and more the longer he was around. I quite enjoy it I gotta say Maru’s just incredibly boring personality wise, always has been, still is. But hey I might trade some of my ‘engaging’ personality for the ability to be that bloody good at StarCraft! Maru is just a very introvert person. I think I have only seen him being socially "comfy" around ByuN. | ||
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Creager
Germany1894 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On November 30 2024 05:42 darklycid wrote: Feels like showtime needs to figure out how he wants to play the lategame after the disruptor nerf they dont rly feel like it tbh. All the Korean toss have basically swapped to a heavy storm style which seems to work pretty well. And on the subject of Korean toss and storm, Nightmare's hero overcharge storm hold vs Gumiho in game 3 of their series was well worth a watch. Shame to lose Showtime though, toss line up was already super weak | ||
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TaKeSeN
Germany196 Posts
- bovo | ||
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seopthi
391 Posts
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207aicila
1237 Posts
I am watching other non-SC Twitch streams perfectly fine with no problems so I don't think it's me. | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
On November 30 2024 21:54 seopthi wrote: Have there been any interesting talk about the patch by the players in between games? they do. At least day one, “how does it feel” etc. “What has changed.” | ||
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seopthi
391 Posts
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TaKeSeN
Germany196 Posts
On November 30 2024 22:32 207aicila wrote: Is the stream having technical issues? ISP or something? I tried watching yesterday as well and it would keep going down every now and then. I'd AFK for half an hour and when I came back it would say stream offline and I had to refresh. I am watching other non-SC Twitch streams perfectly fine with no problems so I don't think it's me. unfortunately yes, we hope they are now resolved in total | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
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TaKeSeN
Germany196 Posts
On December 01 2024 07:01 Harris1st wrote: Putting up a tournament like this and be haunted by lag must be soulcrushing ;-; ............... | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
that's just crazy, lmao | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On December 01 2024 07:52 M3t4PhYzX wrote: 6T / 1P / 1Z in playoffs? that's just crazy, lmao Not surprising since we all knew this patch was a buff for terran and another nerf to already weaken toss Also Serral just doing Serral stuff. Serral pretty much saved us from a dreadful final day of tvt | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 01 2024 08:06 Blitzball04 wrote: Not surprising since we all knew this patch was a buff for terran and another nerf to already weaken toss Also Serral just doing Serral stuff. Serral pretty much saved us from a dreadful final day of tvt I mean there werre some other factors too, like lambo from what he said in his cideos was that he was playing alot of deadlock recently so while he also played some sc2 again he probably istn fully in practise again, reynor according to rotti just went to korea and probably wasnt pracitising there, elazer idk about but in my head isnt that active currently either while ryung,spirit, gabe etc are more into the grind at least in my headcanon. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On December 01 2024 08:10 darklycid wrote: I mean there werre some other factors too, like lambo from what he said in his cideos was that he was playing alot of deadlock recently so while he also played some sc2 again he probably istn fully in practise again, reynor according to rotti just went to korea and probably wasnt pracitising there, elazer idk about but in my head isnt that active currently either while ryung,spirit, gabe etc are more into the grind at least in my headcanon. Reynor doesn't even play SC2 even when he's at home. He's been playing League of Legends. I feel like Reynor's just not as motivated as before. | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 01 2024 08:18 geokilla wrote: Reynor doesn't even play SC2 even when he's at home. He's been playing League of Legends. I feel like Reynor's just not as motivated as before. He is sort of a big game player and there are no big games rn. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
Hey I had some fun with HSC’s traditional flavour and some SC2 tournament action! Think balance whining is premature given it’s a pretty wide field in terms of skill level/achievement I can’t really look past any of the 10-0 trio for making the double elimination portion of the bracket, and there’s some tasty matchups and storylines there for sure. Of that trio I still think it’s massively unlikely but perhaps Maru fumbling I’d consider slightly more probable | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
On December 01 2024 08:22 darklycid wrote: He is sort of a big game player and there are no big games rn. Yeah do you expect people to practice sc2 diligently while we don't even know if there is a circuit/tournament to be played next year? Only surprising result imo was ShoWTimE losing to Spirit, otherwise if Reynor doesn't practice much HM beating him is kinda expected | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 01 2024 09:29 Poopi wrote: Yeah do you expect people to practice sc2 diligently while we don't even know if there is a circuit/tournament to be played next year? Only surprising result imo was ShoWTimE losing to Spirit, otherwise if Reynor doesn't practice much HM beating him is kinda expected I was a bit surprised about harstems performance, i expected him to look better at least. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9197 Posts
The results look awful for non-Terrans and I thought it wouldn't be so bad if we had Solar, Shin or Classic here... but then I remembered Byun and Cure are also not present. Not the best time to be a TvT hater for sure. | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 01 2024 10:24 Sent. wrote: Dunno, it's been a while since you could reasonably expect Heromarine to beat one of the big boys. You could say Heromarine vs Reynor might be an even or even Heromarine favored match, but I certainly wouldn't agree with assuming Heromarine is straight up expect to win. The results look awful for non-Terrans and I thought it wouldn't be so bad if we had Solar, Shin or Classic here... but then I remembered Byun and Cure are also not present. Not the best time to be a TvT hater for sure. Vs a reynor that hasnt been playing sc2 too much? I dont think a gabe win is unexpected. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On December 01 2024 10:24 Sent. wrote: Dunno, it's been a while since you could reasonably expect Heromarine to beat one of the big boys. You could say Heromarine vs Reynor might be an even or even Heromarine favored match, but I certainly wouldn't agree with assuming Heromarine is straight up expect to win. The results look awful for non-Terrans and I thought it wouldn't be so bad if we had Solar, Shin or Classic here... but then I remembered Byun and Cure are also not present. Not the best time to be a TvT hater for sure. Terran got like 5 players of the top 10 in this event, Zerg got like only 1.5, and Protoss got probably 2. Even without Byun/Cure/Oliveira, Terran still has the strongest roster overall. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On December 01 2024 07:52 M3t4PhYzX wrote: 6T / 1P / 1Z in playoffs? that's just crazy, lmao Considering who actually is participating it's really not surprising. Nightmare being the best Protoss on the docket pretty much guaranteed a bad showing for them. If Reynor doesn't break out of his funk soon then it looks like Serral is going to have to be doing most if not all of the heavy lifting for Zerg outside of Korea for the forseeable future. He hasn't put up good results anywhere near his peak in over a year. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1177 Posts
On December 01 2024 12:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Considering who actually is participating it's really not surprising. Nightmare being the best Protoss on the docket pretty much guaranteed a bad showing for them. If Reynor doesn't break out of his funk soon then it looks like Serral is going to have to be doing most if not all of the heavy lifting for Zerg outside of Korea for the forseeable future. He hasn't put up good results anywhere near his peak in over a year. Small correction: ShowTime is by far the best Protoss on the docket, but he is also the perfect opponent for Maru and Spirit beating him isn't an upset either. NightMare just happened to be in a group that didn't have two better players. Though I would probably have expected Skillous over him. Reynors slump really is concerning. I think the only good showing he had all year was getting the big points in the WTL Playoffs? In general, as of now there is basically no real upset in this tournament - meaning the patch didn't shake up that much. Serral, Maru and Clem cruise through the field, GuMiho is the best of the rest and all the others are also there. Predictions for the Quarters: Maru/Ryung: Normally Maru, but Ryungs TvT is tricky...should still be a 3:0 GuMi/BigGabe: EWC Rematch...I will just go with a 3:2 for Heromarine here Clem/Nightmare: If this isn't a 3:0 it would already be an upset Serral/Spirit: I believe Serral has a combined maploss against Terrans not named Clem this year of...3. But hey, Spirit has won a map against Serral each year for three years in a row, but not yet in 2024. Who knows? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On December 01 2024 14:05 Balnazza wrote: Small correction: ShowTime is by far the best Protoss on the docket, but he is also the perfect opponent for Maru and Spirit beating him isn't an upset either. NightMare just happened to be in a group that didn't have two better players. Though I would probably have expected Skillous over him. Reynors slump really is concerning. I think the only good showing he had all year was getting the big points in the WTL Playoffs? In general, as of now there is basically no real upset in this tournament - meaning the patch didn't shake up that much. Serral, Maru and Clem cruise through the field, GuMiho is the best of the rest and all the others are also there. Predictions for the Quarters: Maru/Ryung: Normally Maru, but Ryungs TvT is tricky...should still be a 3:0 GuMi/BigGabe: EWC Rematch...I will just go with a 3:2 for Heromarine here Clem/Nightmare: If this isn't a 3:0 it would already be an upset Serral/Spirit: I believe Serral has a combined maploss against Terrans not named Clem this year of...3. But hey, Spirit has won a map against Serral each year for three years in a row, but not yet in 2024. Who knows? If you want to say Showtime is the best Protoss at this tournament I don't agree but I think it's debatable who is better between them since their skill levels and accomplishments are pretty comparable. Either way. It doesn't change the general point. You have a very weak Protoss field at this tournament. It's unrealistic to look at the list of participating players and expect parity in the final rounds of the tournament. Should be thankful there's even a Protoss in the playoff bracket at all. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4501 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1177 Posts
On December 01 2024 14:11 Vindicare605 wrote: If you want to say Showtime is the best Protoss at this tournament I don't agree but I think it's debatable who is better between them since their skill levels and accomplishments are pretty comparable. Either way. It doesn't change the general point. You have a very weak Protoss field at this tournament. It's unrealistic to look at the list of participating players and expect parity in the final rounds of the tournament. Should be thankful there's even a Protoss in the playoff bracket at all. You are right, it does not matter. I think we can agree that if Showtime and Nightmare were in the opposite groups, Showtime would have most likely advanced and Nightmare wouldn't have - so same result. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On December 01 2024 15:22 Balnazza wrote: You are right, it does not matter. I think we can agree that if Showtime and Nightmare were in the opposite groups, Showtime would have most likely advanced and Nightmare wouldn't have - so same result. I trust Nighmare PvT more than Showtime, and would like his chance against Spirit. | ||
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Creager
Germany1894 Posts
On December 01 2024 09:29 Poopi wrote: Yeah do you expect people to practice sc2 diligently while we don't even know if there is a circuit/tournament to be played next year? Only surprising result imo was ShoWTimE losing to Spirit, otherwise if Reynor doesn't practice much HM beating him is kinda expected Especially considering he's still young and has plenty of gas left in the tank for a promising esports career outside of SC2, cut the man some slack. Overall I was most surprised by Ryung's performance, did not expect much out of him, but he showed really solid games. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On November 30 2024 03:20 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Just wish the play-off portion was double elimination. not like this tho | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On December 01 2024 18:45 Creager wrote: Especially considering he's still young and has plenty of gas left in the tank for a promising esports career outside of SC2, cut the man some slack. Overall I was most surprised by Ryung's performance, did not expect much out of him, but he showed really solid games. Ryung's done that a bunch of times. He goes quiet for a long time then busts out a decent tournament run before going quiet again. He's had a long career of doing that so it cant be THAT surprising anymore. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
Let the best terran win! | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On December 01 2024 16:16 tigera6 wrote: I trust Nighmare PvT more than Showtime, and would like his chance against Spirit. Think Nightmare crushes Spirit - Feel like the storm heavy style Nightmare uses rather than Showtime continuing to lean on the disruptor is way more effective. --- Heromarine over Reynor was an upset on paper, but I think that's clearly just Reynor obviously not playing much recently. Gabe seemed like he might have hit a better mental mix of playing, teaching and content creating on his stream lately and does seem like he might be a little bit revitalised. I still reckon Reynor will hit good levels next year if there's serious stuff to play for, but Shin is the third best Z in the world at the mo behind Serral and Dark. -- Maybe we can see an upset or two today to keep things more interesting than the TvT parade that looks likely, but it always looked likely when the line up was announced too. | ||
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
maru vs ryung g1 was really good! | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
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bulldozer06701
124 Posts
On December 01 2024 23:05 tigera6 wrote: Why the hell did Ryung make like 20 mines in lategame? Did he plan to disable all the BCs and has the Mines to shoot them down? mass mines can be surprisingly good against BCs | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On December 01 2024 23:54 darklycid wrote: Look i didnt expect Nightmare to win or even take a map but holy fuck the protoss games this hsc have mostly been depressing af. I don't know what you were expecting but that looked pretty much exactly how a Clem vs Nightmare match looked in my head. | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 00:00 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't know what you were expecting but that looked pretty much exactly how a Clem vs Nightmare match looked in my head. Eh maybe a lil more resistance and not dying to the first push. But also talking more in general this hsc i felt like the protoss games haven't looked very good even the ones one muight have expected to be closer in how they play out. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 00:00 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't know what you were expecting but that looked pretty much exactly how a Clem vs Nightmare match looked in my head. Clem has swept better Protoss players in bigger tournaments, aye can’t say this blew my mind On December 02 2024 00:35 Zzzapper wrote: 3 clean 13-0 map scores going into the semis. I can't remember ever seeing this in a major tournament. Serral, Maru and Clem really are head and shoulders above every else right now. Although I suppose herO and Dark not playing helps with that Yeah it’s pretty remarkable, they really are absolute monsters. Even in the history of HSC, a tourney which tends to have bigger gaps in field quality than most | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 00:48 WombaT wrote: Clem has swept better Protoss players in bigger tournaments, aye can’t say this blew my mind Yeah it’s pretty remarkable, they really are absolute monsters. Even in the history of HSC, a tourney which tends to have bigger gaps in field quality than most I mean yea but still in the whole context tof this hsc protoss games have looked pretty depressing. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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tigera6
3397 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9197 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
At least Twitch chat didn’t spend the entirety of it balance whining… | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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HeroSandro
530 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 02 2024 02:45 Waxangel wrote: I can see the GuMiho championship script coming together He did beat Clem in the semis for his win last time | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:20 Nakajin wrote: Maru's gonna get 3-0 and the discussion will be if he got recked hard enough to consider the patch balanced. Perfect balance means Clem 3-0 Serral and Serral 3-0 Maru | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:13 darklycid wrote: It's kinda interesting that clem struggles in tvt which is the mu where the s of rts matters the most, also sorta reinforces the point of maybe sc2 right now focussing too much on the rt part of the game. okay, maybe the BW elitists were right and SC2 fans need to be bullied | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:45 Waxangel wrote: okay, maybe the BW elitists were right and SC2 fans need to be bullied You dont agree that at the high lvl of tvz currently it just looks like the faster player wins? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9197 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:51 Sent. wrote: Are you saying Heromarine is faster than Reynor? Are you saying a reynor that is not playing sc2 is playing at the highest lvl? | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:46 darklycid wrote: You dont agree that at the high lvl of tvz currently it just looks like the faster player wins? yah and that's the point of starcraft since 1998 condolences if you think that shouldn't be so, but have been forced to be a fan of the game for a decade because there's no alternative  | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:52 Waxangel wrote: yah and that's the point of starcraft since 1998 condolences if you think that shouldn't be so, but have been forced to be a fan of the game for a decade because there's no alternative I guess? Idk it felt like in the past there were opportunities but at the optimisation we are at right now it feels even more pronounced. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:52 darklycid wrote: Are you saying a reynor that is not playing sc2 is playing at the highest lvl? Okay, so the highest level only consists of Serral, Clem and Maru. In that case I agree that the fastest player wins These categories of "the highest level" or "top tier pros" were ridiculous years ago when people decided that game balance should be based around top 10 players only (a sample way too small to conclude anything about balance vs. skill difference) and now I guess we're at a point were being a top 10 player isn't even enough to be at the highest level, you literally have to be one of these three guys | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:58 Zzzapper wrote: Okay, so the highest level only consists of Serral, Clem and Maru. In that case I agree that the fastest player wins These categories of "the highest level" or "top tier pros" were ridiculous years ago when people decided that game balance should be based around top 10 players only (a sample way too small to conclude anything about balance vs. skill difference) and now I guess we're at a point were being a top 10 player isn't even enough to be at the highest level, you literally have to be one of these three guys Reynor is at the highest lvl when he practises but not when he is playing lol and just went to korea (and not to practise). | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 02 2024 03:59 darklycid wrote: Reynor is at the highest lvl when he practises but not when he is playing lol and just went to korea (and not to practise). My bad, here's my exhaustive list of top SC2 players: Clem Serral Maru Reynor when he practices a lot herO outside of important top4s (toss can't win here) MaxPax in online tournaments except when the stakes are high Dark if he weren't going to the military I believe that should be everyone, no? | ||
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 04:09 Zzzapper wrote: My bad, here's my exhaustive list of top SC2 players: Clem Serral Maru Reynor when he practices a lot herO outside of important top4s (toss can't win here) MaxPax in online tournaments except when the stakes are high Dark if he weren't going to the military I believe that should be everyone, no? Rogue when it's a Bo7 offline Oliveira when he is on a roll Zest when he is best | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 04:09 Zzzapper wrote: My bad, here's my exhaustive list of top SC2 players: Clem Serral Maru Reynor when he practices a lot herO outside of important top4s (toss can't win here) MaxPax in online tournaments except when the stakes are high Dark if he weren't going to the military I believe that should be everyone, no? I mean yea top is clem,maru,reynor,serral,herO (maxpax is a special case thats why i dont list him into this tier) dunno if we still wanna count dark. Then you have the players just below who can punch them but not consistently like cure, Byun, lately i'd put shin in here too and well maxpax outside of esl weeklies (solar struggles too much currently and rogue isnt fully back yet i feel). | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 04:17 Poopi wrote: Maru getting 3-0d by Serral, I am not surprised :/ Why would you be? Isnt this the Scoreline for like 3-4 years already? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1177 Posts
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
On December 02 2024 04:20 Harris1st wrote: Why would you be? Isnt this the Scoreline for like 3-4 years already? Since Clem has been beating Serral hard I figured Maru could, but he is probably too old/slow nowadays | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On December 02 2024 04:28 Poopi wrote: Since Clem has been beating Serral hard I figured Maru could, but he is probably too old/slow nowadays Maru refuse to play the more aggressive style that prioritize army over economy, and his control just isnt great anymore. Like in game 3, he got a good harassments on Serral base, was slighly ahead on worker, and the army was pretty much equal. Then he did nothing aggressive for another 2-3 minutes, just turtling at home and build more CC, willingly giving map control to Serral doing the counter attack. Its just impossible to defend if you have no vision on the map, Maru keep living on the edge by reacting in the last minute just doesnt work. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
Is there a worse SC2 unit? Very minor point but why is the overlay not showing the map name this tourney like it usually does? | ||
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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TaKeSeN
Germany196 Posts
-bovo fun fact, clem beat gumiho 2-1 to qualify | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
The scan bandit claims another observer | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On December 02 2024 05:13 Poopi wrote: Lol Clem having to use protoss to stand a chance versus Gumiho... Maru why did you lose to Gumiho, could have been a doable win with just TvT and Clem eliminating Serral To be fair, I doubt Maru could beat Clem in TvT with how he was playing. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4501 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
10/10 | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
Clem is somehow sloppier than even herO, love to see it. I really love it when players show us their vaunted off-races when there’s something on the line | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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hoursetl7
2 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9197 Posts
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Sibiryak
111 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 06:44 Antithesis wrote: The level of play between Serral and Clem is surreal. Crazy how no one comes close to pushing Serral like this. Oliveira came close to that at uh iem was it iirc? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 06:50 darklycid wrote: Oliveira came close to that at uh iem was it iirc? Dreamhack Spring in the Ro4 I think? Or season finals or whatever they call it now Good series! Although Serral has an 80% set win and is 14-0 in series against Oliveira, he doesn’t typically struggle against him. Or any other Terran for that matter. They were practice partners before that event and playing an absolute crapload of games, I wonder if Oliveira was able to pick up on a few tendencies of Serral’s and exploit them a little in a way it’s quite hard for non-practice partners to have the volume of info to do. Still played bloody well So for Clem to not just go 50/50 with Serral but be actively stomping him is pretty nuts! Shades of when Maru was still pretty peerless in TvZ but Serral was a brick wall, although other Zergs could still beat him. Oddly enough Serral still leads the set and match head to head despite this recent pummelling, 52% and 62%, which I think attests to quite how long it took Clem to get reliably on his current level. Speaking of everyone’s favourite Frenchmen, will we see his Toss again? Some really atypical sloppiness (adept donations, about 8 Collosus donations) aside, he was giving Gumigod a hell of a game | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 06:44 Antithesis wrote: The level of play between Serral and Clem is surreal. Crazy how no one comes close to pushing Serral like this. In recent times, some Maru versus Serral sets and Serral and Clem just consistently StarCraft of a pure quality of play I don’t think we’ve seen before, it’s insane. Of course half the audience seemingly would rather balance whine than just enjoy it, but hey! Man when Innovation first burst into prominence way back in 2013 at that time I felt similarly, indeed I didn’t really see how someone could be much better at SC2 than what he was showing then. Maru in various guises somehow managed it, and now we’ve got this version of Clem. His macro is pretty much just as terrifying but he’s even better at micro and multitasking Also haha just recalling that Gumiho didn’t actually notice Clem picked Toss and the probe gave it away, imagine if Clem had gone for a late scout! | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 02 2024 07:41 WombaT wrote: Dreamhack Spring in the Ro4 I think? Or season finals or whatever they call it now Good series! Although Serral has an 80% set win and is 14-0 in series against Oliveira, he doesn’t typically struggle against him. Or any other Terran for that matter. They were practice partners before that event and playing an absolute crapload of games, I wonder if Oliveira was able to pick up on a few tendencies of Serral’s and exploit them a little in a way it’s quite hard for non-practice partners to have the volume of info to do. Still played bloody well So for Clem to not just go 50/50 with Serral but be actively stomping him is pretty nuts! Shades of when Maru was still pretty peerless in TvZ but Serral was a brick wall, although other Zergs could still beat him. Oddly enough Serral still leads the set and match head to head despite this recent pummelling, 52% and 62%, which I think attests to quite how long it took Clem to get reliably on his current level. Speaking of everyone’s favourite Frenchmen, will we see his Toss again? Some really atypical sloppiness (adept donations, about 8 Collosus donations) aside, he was giving Gumigod a hell of a game I think that's oversimplifying things and not giving Oliveira enough credit. He really did push him to the verge of defeat at a time where Clem was unfavored vs Serral (or at best 50/50). Pre-EWC, it was easily a performance you could classify as Clem-tier. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 07:52 Waxangel wrote: I think that's oversimplifying things and not giving Oliveira enough credit. He really did push him to the verge of defeat at a time where Clem was unfavored vs Serral (or at best 50/50). Pre-EWC, it was easily a performance you could classify as Clem-tier. I only undersell Oliveira to compensate for folks overselling him. Nah I kid I’m not really saying anything Oliveira himself didn’t say, both him and Serral talked about how useful it was to have a practice partner of such a high level to just grind with. Oliveira also went on in an interview with the Chinese scene that someone reposted here to say he got the chance to throw the kitchen sink at Serral and find what works. It’s not a diss on Oliveira, indeed I think it’d be quite interesting to ponder what some rivalries would look like if both participants practiced hundreds of games against each other. I actually thought Oliveira brought a blueprint that few could copy, but Maru could. A fair few games it was big, committed pushes immaculately controlled, something I think is still within Maru’s wheelhouse. I don’t think anyone can reliably play Clem’s tempo-based death by a thousand cuts kind of style bar him, to the level you can pick Serral apart. Oliveira could on a good day perhaps but when he did show success it was more reminiscent of Innovation bludgeoning opponents. | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 08:20 darklycid wrote: How the hell did gumi lose this :D As Rotti was saying he took a Nexus but not a lot of the tech, Clem just pumped out a few more Collosus and had enough gateways to build support and he killed one of Gumi’s split armies I think if Gumigod didn’t load up for big drop number 2 and just consolidated his forces he’d have been fine | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 08:31 Waxangel wrote: damn, this is the most tech cursed tournament since like the mid 2010's I wonder why? These usually run pretty smoothly | ||
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TaKeTV
Germany1199 Posts
On December 02 2024 08:41 WombaT wrote: I wonder why? These usually run pretty smoothly Our main line is troublesome (1000up/1000down) We have to use backup lines (2) and a LTE router. One of the backup lines just failed on the final Sorry 😮💨 | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 08:51 TaKeTV wrote: Our main line is troublesome (1000up/1000down) We have to use backup lines (2) and a LTE router. One of the backup lines just failed on the final Sorry 😮💨 No apology necessary brother, these things can happen. I’d heard recently there was some big issue with a set of European interweb cables so thought maybe that was a contributor | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 09:26 WombaT wrote: This is ridiculous Is it? | ||
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Gescom
Canada3397 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
In the positive, nobody’s really off-raced all that much in high stakes games and Clem’s doing it in a tournament finals, and looking pretty good | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
On December 02 2024 09:38 darklycid wrote: So the secret to toss is just be bold and expand in the face of danger :D Just be as good mechanically as Clem | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On December 02 2024 09:46 darklycid wrote: Common, Clem played off-race for the first time on LAN.Clem got terran'd He'd lose to a really strong zerg too, or would lose as zerg to a strong protoss player. | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 09:53 ZeroByte13 wrote: Common, Clem played off-race for the first time on LAN. He'd lose to a really strong zerg too, or would lose as zerg to a strong protoss player. Oh im not too serious just funny to see clem lose the micro battle vs a terran :D e: against the type of micro he likes to do himself alot as well  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 09:55 darklycid wrote: Oh im not too serious just funny to see clem lose the micro battle vs a terran :D e: against the type of micro he likes to do himself alot as well Terran is just more microable, it is what it is. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
The tournament was great fun, as always. It was nice to see some offline SC2 after the long break. Many thanks to Take and team! | ||
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darklycid
3510 Posts
On December 02 2024 10:00 WombaT wrote: Terran is just more microable, it is what it is. In those situations most definitely. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2848 Posts
and seRRal played well | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote: Really says a lot about both Clem's lack of confidence in his TvT and the state of TvP that Clem feels he has a better chance of beating Gumigod in the match up that reddit INSISTS is completely broken in Terran's favor, rather than facing him in a mirror match up. Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent. Well he did out TvT Heromarine, Maru and Clem himself. So it kinda makes a lot of sense. I remember Clem saying that his Protoss his just marginally weaker than his Terran and that he could beat anyone with his Protoss (even Serral) | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12176 Posts
To say that he can beat anyone with his Pvx, though, that's likely just delusion. Similar to how Reynor felt about his protoss in the beginning. If he truly believes that, reality will catch up to him. | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
HSC except the lag, as always really good to watch. Relaxed and entertaining. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
On December 02 2024 16:53 Harris1st wrote: I remember Clem saying that his Protoss his just marginally weaker than his Terran and that he could beat anyone with his Protoss (even Serral) Did he actually say this? I recall him or someone else saying during this HSC that his PvZ is substantially weaker than his PvT and PvP. As impressive as Clem's recent play has been, assuming he can beat Serral in a complete series with his offrace, in PvZ out of all matchups, seems preposterous. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
I think it is very much that TvT is his weakest match up, PvT is his best off race match up and TvP is arguably Gumi's weakest so why not roll the dice a bit in a more low stakes tourney. --- Big love Take and the crew for persisting through all the tech troubles and keeping up the energy <3 | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 17:22 Nebuchad wrote: The strategy makes a lot of sense. If you are weaker in TvT and okay at PvT, and your opponent is good at TvT and weaker in TvP, it's a pretty simple equation. To say that he can beat anyone with his Pvx, though, that's likely just delusion. Similar to how Reynor felt about his protoss in the beginning. If he truly believes that, reality will catch up to him. Nah can't really compare the two IMO. Reynor was mostly just goofing and avoiding a specific MU while Clem seems actually serious about his Protoss and is laddering a ton with it | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 18:41 Antithesis wrote: Did he actually say this? I recall him or someone else saying during this HSC that his PvZ is substantially weaker than his PvT and PvP. As impressive as Clem's recent play has been, assuming he can beat Serral in a complete series with his offrace, in PvZ out of all matchups, seems preposterous. I don't remember the whole conversations but I'm reasonably sure he said he beat Serral PvZ on the ladder a couple of times and thinks he is almost 50:50 with Serral there. It was while casting a game together with Rotti some time on Sunday. I'll try to find it | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
I'm just a bit surprised to not see complain about his race switch considering the uproar against reynor. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On December 02 2024 21:06 Harris1st wrote: Nah can't really compare the two IMO. Reynor was mostly just goofing and avoiding a specific MU while Clem seems actually serious about his Protoss and is laddering a ton with it I think Reynor was also very serious about picking Protoss against Zerg, but it just didnt work out for him in the end. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 02 2024 22:15 stilt wrote: Would have liked that clem won, gg gumigod. I'm just a bit surprised to not see complain about his race switch considering the uproar against reynor. Didn't see the finals yet but in the semi finals Gumi didn't even realize Clem switched races until he saw Clem's scouting Probe and he looked hella confused lol. Someone really should have given him a heads up | ||
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tad
15 Posts
There were still lot of interesting games | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15958 Posts
On December 02 2024 22:39 tigera6 wrote: I think Reynor was also very serious about picking Protoss against Zerg, but it just didnt work out for him in the end. Yeah he definitely was serious, he just started struggling when the top Zergs adapted to his PvZ playstyle and started exploiting his playstyle specifically. Could imagine it will be similar with Clem, there's a difference reaching high MMR mostly playing random opponents and playing bo5s in tournaments with preparation | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On December 02 2024 23:55 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah he definitely was serious, he just started struggling when the top Zergs adapted to his PvZ playstyle and started exploiting his playstyle specifically. Could imagine it will be similar with Clem, there's a difference reaching high MMR mostly playing random opponents and playing bo5s in tournaments with preparation That tends to be the case for Protoss just in general. It's a race designed for the ladder not for tournament play. When the player is working with a fresh meta or is unfamiliar Protoss tends to be stronger. It's when the player playing it becomes studied and figured out that all of a sudden it starts to lose its viability at the top level. Becoming predictable is the worst death sentence for a Protoss player. | ||
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Poopi
France12880 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12176 Posts
On December 03 2024 01:27 Poopi wrote: MaxPax seems to be doing fine playing the same stuff, albeit in low stakes tournaments I think he has a very solid shot at winning the next regionals | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
Not having a regional champion in a season "finals" would be weird. | ||
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Dassarin
United States5 Posts
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 02 2024 21:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That was a great grand finals ! Too bad it didn't reset to go to the next Bo3 but it was still really fun with tons of back and forth. The amount of micro and the unique way Clem engaged and used his stalkers to gain value was really cool. It was also really cool how much he stuck to Colossus for his splash and how he showed you can get more out of them if you micro well with them (and even more if he didn't sloppily lose several haha). Also he would often chase after the bio when you'd think most other Protoss would back up. Don't see other Protoss fighting the way he does, wonder if it'll change anything! I think the novelty of seeing an off-race, and a very good off-race in a big match is seeing folks going a little overboard. I didn’t see a huge amount of Clem’s undoubted execution coming to bear in any new way, though he played some good games for sure it wasn’t in games where I saw him executing better than a herO, peak Trap, MaxPax etc. Very strong though and definitely looks a viable option for him, can’t understate how impressive that is I just also wouldn’t overrate his execution versus recent top Toss players. He also didn’t show a huge amount of range, but I’m not sure that that necessarily means he doesn’t have it. Reynor’s similarly impressive and feared PvZ was really strong until people became familiar with his style and started countering it in advance On December 03 2024 01:56 Nebuchad wrote: I think he has a very solid shot at winning the next regionals He’s not beating Serral in a big playoff rubber IMO, but he definitely can do it if he can avoid that matchup. He trades pretty decently with Clem, and Reynor’s been slumping for a long while now, and in that slump his PvZ has been particularly unreliable against top players. That’s if we get a new set of regionals, fingers very much crossed. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
Looking back, I just realized the final game of the first Bo5 vs Gumiho had him successfully blinking on top of the tank push and killing the tank. In the grands, he did the same on the same map, but this time Gumiho had the medivac and dodged 2-3 volleys of stalkers which sunk my heart but it gave that starcraft dramatic goodness that reminds me of the more competitive story-filled years of SC2's past. I can't even be mad that's how Clem lost because it was sick by gumiho. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 02 2024 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote: Really says a lot about both Clem's lack of confidence in his TvT and the state of TvP that Clem feels he has a better chance of beating Gumigod in the match up that reddit INSISTS is completely broken in Terran's favor, rather than facing him in a mirror match up. Can't really say I blame him. When Gumiho is on point with his TvT he is a SCARY opponent. Felt like a bit of a one-off, since the patch is relatively new (even with PTR time) and GuMiho basically re-released his Cylcone mech style out of nowhere. On top of that, GuMiho's TvP isn't that great, and Clem already has experience beating him in the qualifiers with Protoss. HSC is relatively low stakes compared to other events, so this is a good a place as any to test your (allegedly super-high MMR) off-race in a competitive environment. Still, it bears watching to see if he starts bringing it out more often in bigger events. Still, I gotta think it's limited to a handful of Terrans whose have poor TvP—it seems like an awful idea to try this against someone like ByuN or Maru. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 03 2024 05:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah a likely reason he stuck to a similar playstyle + comp relying on Colossus etc. is to try to compensate for him not being a Protoss main, being able to have multiple games playing the same comp/style especially when it was giving close games would make it easier to make the slight improvements needed to win and make it easier to pinpoint what adjustments he may need to make to win. Looking back, I just realized the final game of the first Bo5 vs Gumiho had him successfully blinking on top of the tank push and killing the tank. In the grands, he did the same on the same map, but this time Gumiho had the medivac and dodged 2-3 volleys of stalkers which sunk my heart but it gave that starcraft dramatic goodness that reminds me of the more competitive story-filled years of SC2's past. I can't even be mad that's how Clem lost because it was sick by gumiho. I think you saw quite a lot of what makes Toss so fragile in this series, especially in that matchup. It’s very difficult to split armies optimally in the mid game T aggression phase, and taking certain engagements you can either clean it up pretty soundly, or take game-ending damage. This isn’t a balance whine so much, I think if Toss makes the right calls time and time again and doesn’t make a big blunder they can still be very competitive, but it’s on an absolute knife-edge I’ll be interested to see what the meta starts looking like when/if a proper tournament cycle returns and we see more top tosses in action too | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12176 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1186 Posts
On December 02 2024 21:09 Harris1st wrote: I don't remember the whole conversations but I'm reasonably sure he said he beat Serral PvZ on the ladder a couple of times and thinks he is almost 50:50 with Serral there. It was while casting a game together with Rotti some time on Sunday. I'll try to find it If that's true, it's amazing. Would be interesting to hear exactly what Clem said. But I find it hard to believe. Even considering that ladder is different from a tournament setting, going 50:50 against Serral in PvZ would effectively make Clem the best protoss player in the world in this regard. Neither herO, nor MaxPax, nor any other protoss is particularly close to that number. At EWC, herO cumulatively went 25:75 (2-6) against Serral, and that was his best result in a long time. Middle-of-the-pack protosses like Harstem can go years without even winning a map. I cannot imagine Clem's offrace being this much better. Then again, maybe Clem was referring to a relatively brief and recent time frame where he has been pumping out games like crazy and Serral just returned from his break after the military service. That might be possible. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 03 2024 07:11 Nebuchad wrote: The main thing that's currently missing is either the templar build or, if you can't do a templar build because the tank timing is too strong, the transition point into templars. Probably someone like Astrea will figure that out and only once it's mapped people like Showtime and Maxpax will do it. It's not 'missing'—it did fine in a bunch of PTR tournament games. I wouldn't index too hard off of a couple of games from HSC. Now, I will say that from what I've watched, 2 Robo + Gateways seems to have remained 'standard' mid-game for PvT, and some players like ShoWTimE will basically play it 99% of the time. But if you look at players like herO or Classic, they're much more willing to vary things up. I do have a small worry that Robo-Gateway will become too prevalent as the mid-game comp as the meta gets figured out, but we'll have to wait and see. | ||
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TaKeTV
Germany1199 Posts
Replays for the people that were looking | ||
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
On December 04 2024 03:07 TaKeTV wrote: https://x.com/TaKeTV/status/1863984418018230499 Replays for the people that were looking Thanks | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On December 03 2024 07:11 Nebuchad wrote: Didn't MaxPax come up with a few builds himself?The main thing that's currently missing is either the templar build or, if you can't do a templar build because the tank timing is too strong, the transition point into templars. Probably someone like Astrea will figure that out and only once it's mapped people like Showtime and Maxpax will do it. I think he's capable in that regard too, not only in execution. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12176 Posts
On December 04 2024 04:11 ZeroByte13 wrote: Didn't MaxPax come up with a few builds himself? I think he's capable in that regard too, not only in execution. He had his proxy build a long time ago but lately my perception of him is more that he finds something he likes with a few possible variations and then he spams more or less those same variations. I'm far from watching every game though I could be wrong for sure. | ||
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EPT
HomeStory Cup 26
