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King of Battles 2 Groups & Main Event - Page 15

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
331 CommentsPost a Reply
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tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3348 Posts
November 21 2021 21:43 GMT
#281
On November 22 2021 06:38 yoshi245 wrote:
Maru the GOAT. Serral did rely very heavily on Broodlords though that last game. Not sure if it was the best choice to stick with.

Serral probably thought he made some mistake with the BLord fight on Blackburn and was trying to get a better fight.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-21 21:44:49
November 21 2021 21:43 GMT
#282
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ

Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-21 21:46:22
November 21 2021 21:45 GMT
#283
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.


Stop whining, I am zerg and one of the few who cheer for serral on this website but he lost fair and square.
There are a lot of examples of zerg beating a T on late game actually.
For now Maru' style is dominating but the top zerg should be able to find new apporach/playstyle to adapt to it.
91matt
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom147 Posts
November 21 2021 21:46 GMT
#284
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12790 Posts
November 21 2021 21:48 GMT
#285
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.

Solar beat Maru several times during those scenarios though.
WriterMaru
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4400 Posts
November 21 2021 21:49 GMT
#286
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.


You are dramatically underestimating the control requirement to win in those situations. No one else plays late game like Maru. Even Clem plays it very differently and it never really goes true split map.

You keep asking for examples to disprove your claim but why don't you instead offer examples that prove it? Ones that don't include Maru please.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-21 21:50:35
November 21 2021 21:49 GMT
#287
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.

Then say what you mean immediately and don't change the goal setting once you've been exposed, a 6 base vs 6 base situation with both players having big banks is definitely lategame.

Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3348 Posts
November 21 2021 21:50 GMT
#288
The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far.
And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33345 Posts
November 21 2021 21:50 GMT
#289
On November 22 2021 06:36 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:35 MarianoSC2 wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything


Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome

Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year

True, Zergs should study how Solar plays that


I wouldn't look too deeply into that, since Serral has beaten Maru even more recently in the late-game with the style. It's just always going to be close between top players. There's no magic solution to anything; just gotta play better on that day.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
MarianoSC2
Profile Joined June 2015
Slovakia1855 Posts
November 21 2021 21:59 GMT
#290
On November 22 2021 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.


Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there


Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
Top 11: Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, Life, sOs, Stats, Dark, soO, Mvp, Classic/Trap/MC/Rain
MajiN1
Profile Joined July 2017
113 Posts
November 21 2021 22:00 GMT
#291
Great final vert exciting games.
Game 5 was pretty funny Maru almost lost and then serral throw !
Gg to both players their are both goat !!

Thx to AlphaX and all sponsors to make it happened : great tournament
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
November 21 2021 22:03 GMT
#292
On November 22 2021 06:59 MarianoSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.


Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there


Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time

Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
allmotor1
Profile Joined December 2017
152 Posts
November 21 2021 22:07 GMT
#293
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation



right. It's not like there are many Terrans in the world that can beat serral late game atm.
MarianoSC2
Profile Joined June 2015
Slovakia1855 Posts
November 21 2021 22:11 GMT
#294
On November 22 2021 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:59 MarianoSC2 wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:49 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:46 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
[quote]

Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ


Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.


Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there


Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time

Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting


Thought so as well. But the other guy says Terran always wins in the late game, so there must be plenty of games he saw when several Terrans got to that stage and stomped the Zergs, right? Probably should start watching more SC2 again, would love to see those kind of games
Top 11: Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, Life, sOs, Stats, Dark, soO, Mvp, Classic/Trap/MC/Rain
allmotor1
Profile Joined December 2017
152 Posts
November 21 2021 22:17 GMT
#295
what a sad state, TY and Innovation are gone, Maru is the last truly elite Terran left. I guess Cure and Clem will have to do.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-21 22:24:52
November 21 2021 22:24 GMT
#296
Fuck not only did I have to missed the fable Maru-Serral final, but turn out it was great

Oh well, hopefully you guys had fun!
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
swarminfestor
Profile Joined September 2017
Malaysia2449 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-21 22:39:22
November 21 2021 22:30 GMT
#297
On November 22 2021 07:17 allmotor1 wrote:
what a sad state, TY and Innovation are gone, Maru is the last truly elite Terran left. I guess Cure and Clem will have to do.


The peak Byun and Gumiho too. We wont have them no longer since then.
Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^
TheCheapSkate
Profile Joined August 2011
Slovenia316 Posts
November 21 2021 22:39 GMT
#298
Great games in the finals!
BeoMulf
Profile Joined January 2014
United States91 Posts
November 22 2021 00:02 GMT
#299
On November 22 2021 06:50 tigera6 wrote:
The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far.
And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.


The thing is, I think Serral is the only Zerg to even touch Maru consistently in the late game (see DH Winter Season Finals). Maybe we can make an argument for Dark or Rogue, but their wins for the most are more mid-game victories
Find me at twitch.tv/beomulf
TentativePanda
Profile Joined August 2014
United States800 Posts
November 22 2021 02:41 GMT
#300
On November 22 2021 06:43 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2021 06:41 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:37 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:34 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:33 91matt wrote:
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote:
Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.


Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything

only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame.
And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation


No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.

HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago


Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.

you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame.
And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ

Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways


Not that I disagree with you, or think the matchup isnt super close to balanced, but the statement about even economy favoring Terran is literally the symptom of ultra lategame imbalance in the matchup. Terran trades more efficiently, which is fine balance-wise UNTIL the ultra late-game where the finite number of resources actually plays a role.

But to be clear, I don't think it's a requirement for every phase of a matchup to be balanced in order for the matchup as a whole to be balanced. I think they should be close to balanced, weighted by how often the games reach some phase. Since Zerg is ever so slightly favored up until the split map scenario, its not a huge deal that Terran has complete control in the ultra lategame.

So yeah, Serral is the best lategame/ultra late game player we've ever seen, but that just isn't a ZvT matchup strength and I think he needs to develop comfort with other styles to regularly beat Maru (clearly he can beat him).

All that said, most of the maps in the map pool are way too easy to split and I think thats a problem.
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