On November 22 2021 06:38 yoshi245 wrote: Maru the GOAT. Serral did rely very heavily on Broodlords though that last game. Not sure if it was the best choice to stick with.
Serral probably thought he made some mistake with the BLord fight on Blackburn and was trying to get a better fight.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
Stop whining, I am zerg and one of the few who cheer for serral on this website but he lost fair and square. There are a lot of examples of zerg beating a T on late game actually. For now Maru' style is dominating but the top zerg should be able to find new apporach/playstyle to adapt to it.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Solar beat Maru several times during those scenarios though.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
You are dramatically underestimating the control requirement to win in those situations. No one else plays late game like Maru. Even Clem plays it very differently and it never really goes true split map.
You keep asking for examples to disprove your claim but why don't you instead offer examples that prove it? Ones that don't include Maru please.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Then say what you mean immediately and don't change the goal setting once you've been exposed, a 6 base vs 6 base situation with both players having big banks is definitely lategame.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far. And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
Zerg almost never beats Maru in lategame. Corrected it for you, youre welcome
Funny thing is that the Zerg which seems to be most troublesome for Maru in the lategame is Solar, he lost a bunch of these types of games against him this year and last year
True, Zergs should study how Solar plays that
I wouldn't look too deeply into that, since Serral has beaten Maru even more recently in the late-game with the style. It's just always going to be close between top players. There's no magic solution to anything; just gotta play better on that day.
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
right. It's not like there are many Terrans in the world that can beat serral late game atm.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't said split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Its not lategame when one player gets stuck on 5 bases and is behind. It's really not that hard to understand that in ultra lategame one race is way more cost efficient than the other. Maru understands it, that's why he plays lategame and wins.
Yes in split map scenario Terran should win as they are more cost-efficient but games almost never go there
Depends on the players. Honestly against the top Zergs I would only favor Maru in that scenario. Clem maybe 55:45, but others would have a hard time
Against the top Zergs no other terran would even get to that point anyway so this is just theorycrafting
Thought so as well. But the other guy says Terran always wins in the late game, so there must be plenty of games he saw when several Terrans got to that stage and stomped the Zergs, right? Probably should start watching more SC2 again, would love to see those kind of games
On November 22 2021 07:17 allmotor1 wrote: what a sad state, TY and Innovation are gone, Maru is the last truly elite Terran left. I guess Cure and Clem will have to do.
The peak Byun and Gumiho too. We wont have them no longer since then.
On November 22 2021 06:50 tigera6 wrote: The thing is, Zerg almost NEVER let Terran to play lategame. And even in lategame, BLord-Infestor and Lurker-Viper are pretty great under the right control. The same thing with lategame PvZ Skytoss style, the one with the better control win, and Serral lategame has been among the greatest so far. And I hope Maru is not burning out through all these tournaments, and keep himself fresh for the more important tournament. Was dissapointed that he missed NeXT, but now it could be a good thing.
The thing is, I think Serral is the only Zerg to even touch Maru consistently in the late game (see DH Winter Season Finals). Maybe we can make an argument for Dark or Rogue, but their wins for the most are more mid-game victories
On November 22 2021 06:31 TentativePanda wrote: Great games, definitely the two best players in the world right now. Serral should consider not bringing every game to the lategame though. The maps are easy to split for terran and ghosts are by far the best unit in the matchup.
Zerg almost never beats terran in lategame, no one will ever admit it on tl though ghost counters everything
only when Maru or Clem are playing. Serral/Reynor/Dark/Rogue destroy any other player in lategame. And Clem doesn't go into that style of lategame but a more aggression focused variation
No they don't, they already win before it gets to lategame or they have an unassailable advantage. When was the last time you ever saw a zerg comeback in a TvZ, it hardly ever happens. Terran has a stronger lategame than zerg, everyone that plays knows it.
HM vs Serral g1, a few hours ago
Not even close to being a split map tvz and serral wasnt even behind.
you didn't say split map scenario, you just said lategame. And HM was on even economy 15 minutes in which is definitely an advantageous position in TvZ
Those split map games happen only when Maru is playing anyways
Not that I disagree with you, or think the matchup isnt super close to balanced, but the statement about even economy favoring Terran is literally the symptom of ultra lategame imbalance in the matchup. Terran trades more efficiently, which is fine balance-wise UNTIL the ultra late-game where the finite number of resources actually plays a role.
But to be clear, I don't think it's a requirement for every phase of a matchup to be balanced in order for the matchup as a whole to be balanced. I think they should be close to balanced, weighted by how often the games reach some phase. Since Zerg is ever so slightly favored up until the split map scenario, its not a huge deal that Terran has complete control in the ultra lategame.
So yeah, Serral is the best lategame/ultra late game player we've ever seen, but that just isn't a ZvT matchup strength and I think he needs to develop comfort with other styles to regularly beat Maru (clearly he can beat him).
All that said, most of the maps in the map pool are way too easy to split and I think thats a problem.
EPT
