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On May 17 2020 06:40 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 06:06 Pandain wrote:On May 17 2020 05:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 17 2020 04:43 Pandain wrote:On May 17 2020 04:39 DieuCure wrote:On May 17 2020 04:37 Pandain wrote:On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Raynor is just a different class:/ Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate. I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall. Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL. Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now. 1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year) Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted. Let me tell you a story, about a player who went to Korea and beat the best and won several WCS championships in a row in an era where his race was favored. He had some of the best vZ and vP in the entire world, and for a while there he absolutely was considered one of the best in the world. His name was Neeb, and he dominated in an OBVIOUSLY Protoss favored meta (just look at the WCS Korea tournament he won and count the Protoss in it) and he won off of the back of a specific playstyle (in his case Adept timings) and after that playstyle got nerfed, he never rose to those heights again. Lately he's dropped off completely. Reynor is a hot item right now, but his race just got nerfed and is going to be nerfed again. The players I consider to be the best in the world, I think can win in any meta even if it isn't favoring their race. I have no evidence that Reynor is not just another Neeb. I personally don't think he is just due to how fast his mechanics are. But he hasn't proven yet that his results last year weren't just the result of 2019 being the year of the Zerg. Talk to me at the end of 2020 after he's won one of the ESL Globals (if they even still happen) and maybe I'll agree with his status there. But even then, this is a weird year for every tournament outside of GSL because every tournament is being forced to be played online so what conclusions can we draw from any of them? Personally I think Reynor's playstyle is going to be hurt by online matches because he plays as fast as he does. If he can win big this year, with all of those things working against him. That will do a TON to get people like me to start agreeing with you.
I'm glad that Reynor winning an ESL Global would make you rethink whether or not he is a top ten player.
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I could be convinced for a lot less. I actually am a fan of his. I'm just pointing out what would seal the deal for sure not just with me but with everyone.
I just want for his career to develop more, see where he goes after playing in multiple metas.
He's so young and he rose up so quick it's hard to gauge where he is now that the meta has shifted. He's also got rivals with guys like Clem coming up too.
Reynor does have a ton of respect from me for actually going to compete in Code S so few EU pros ever do. I want him to go back and he's expressed his desire to. If he does, then we'll get a really good gauge there too where he is now. Course with COVID being a thing and his being Italian that's unlikely to be allowed either for a while.
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So I guess Rogue is not a top player now, since he dropped out of Super Tournament and Code S. Ah, he also wasn't last year before winning Code S, given that his results were poor.
You admit that Neeb at his peak was one of the best players in the world.
At his peak at HSC, Reynor looked better than Serral and actually performed better than him(even if he lost in the end); Neeb indeed won a KeSpa Cup but never reached a BlizzCon final(the second non korean to do so).
Reynor is performing worse in 2020 than he did last year but there should be no reason to doubt that he currently still is a top 10 player, apart of being reluctant to recognize his strenght because he is not korean.
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Wtf are you talking about? Rogue won IEM Katowice this year! That was less than 3 months ago!
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Not someone who won the biggest global final of the year.
You really think they're comparable?
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On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
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On May 17 2020 11:23 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
No I'm saying Neeb is that.That WCS he won was regionlocked to only NA, remember how I said at the top levels?
I mean seriously look at this!  2019 WCS Winter/Americas How is THAT considered a premier tournament? That tournament is why he won his spot at Blizzcon.
I'm saying Reynor hasn't had a long enough career to really accurately gauge anything about him. Is he hype now? Absolutely! Can we say definitively how good he is yet? No, he could get better he could regress, he's never had a slump before we don't know how he'd come back from one of if he did.
I get that people are excited about him, but overhype is overhype. I am not one for overhype and I'll call it out when I see it.
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On May 17 2020 11:23 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year. In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now" Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway. At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least. Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
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Are replays going to be released ?
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On May 17 2020 12:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 11:23 BerserkSword wrote:On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year. In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now" Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway. At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least. Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case. Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level
The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo
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On May 17 2020 14:19 Kaizor wrote:
Are replays going to be released ?
We're looking into it. Looks promising but can't guarantee it at this point.
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On May 17 2020 16:36 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 12:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 17 2020 11:23 BerserkSword wrote:On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year. In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now" Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway. At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least. Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case. Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made. People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo
So I suppose you think it's just a random coincidence that we had THAT many ZvZ finals last year.
Get real. No one believes that except people pushing an agenda. It's such an accepted truth that even Blizzard is acting on it now FINALLY and we all know how long it takes for them to act on anything.
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On May 17 2020 18:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 16:36 BerserkSword wrote:On May 17 2020 12:09 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 17 2020 11:23 BerserkSword wrote:On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years. Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year. In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now" Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway. At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least. Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case. Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made. People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo So I suppose you think it's just a random coincidence that we had THAT many ZvZ finals last year. Get real. No one believes that except people pushing an agenda. It's such an accepted truth that even Blizzard is acting on it now FINALLY and we all know how long it takes for them to act on anything.
I have no agenda.
We had 3 ZvZ finals (out of 12 possible) in Premier tournaments in which Koreans were allowed to participate in. Hardly "that many" when you take into account the fact that the greatest Terran and Protoss players in the world are Koreans. The difference is that an anomaly, a Zerg player who is as good as Korea's best of the best, exists in europe and nobody there was really able to contend with him except a zerg prodigy in reynor once in a while. Meanwhile Terran did fine - winning i think 3/10 of the premier tournaments in which koreans were allowed.
The fact of the matter is that before the overlord speed buff and warp prism nerf (among other changes introduced during that time period), the mainstream analysis and therefore Blizzard's balance goals, as they stated in their balance updates iirc, were still generally anti protoss (which is why OL speed was buffed and WP was nerfed to begin with - forge nerf were huge too). There were questions raised about Protoss performance, specifically against zerg, in Korea - namely 2 base timings namely immortal all-ins that led to things like 5/8 protoss in ST1 ro8 which Blizzard took to heart and addressed in its balance updates around midyear. You ended up with a Protoss that, in prior patches, had it's lategame nerfed for the sake of TvP and a midgame that was nerfed for ZvP, meaning that the resulting ZvP games towards the second half of the year looked brutal. I don't know how everyone already forgot what the sentiment was during early-mid 2019 - people were freaking out about Protoss midgame strength which led to forge nerf, stim buff, OL speed buff, immortal nerf, warp prism nerf, and even chargelot nerf that came....and people wonder why all the protoss players who were doing well early 2019 and got a lot of points to enter blizzcon suddenly started getting slaughtered, making Zerg look really broken.
So yea. I don't think 2019 was "zerg favored" as much as it was Protoss getting hammered at the least opportune moments, metagame wise.
As wombat always used to say - pvz 2 base all ins were nerfed as soon as zerg started learning to defend against them and you end up with a disaster
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EPT
