EPTOn May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Raynor is just a different class:/
Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
[TSL5] Upper Bracket Round 1 - Page 11
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:37 Pandain wrote: Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate. | ||
ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:37 Pandain wrote: Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player Not bashing him, few players in the world can stand up to Reynor. Future has some amazing baneling targeting skills. | ||
Waxangel
United States33713 Posts
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:41 Waxangel wrote: HeroMarine and Reynor destined to fight forever ;o This is all because HeroMarine stole Reynor's Italian IEM Pyeongchang seed with his Italian ancestry that one time. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2722 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:39 DieuCure wrote: Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate. I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:42 TheOneAboveU wrote: This is all because HeroMarine stole Reynor's Italian IEM Pyeongchang seed with his Italian ancestry that one time. That was hilarous x) | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:43 Pandain wrote: I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo It's SC2, form is the most important thing, sOs went from Blizzcon Champion to Code A. And ? Showtime was in the same group as him, and I guess you do not rate Showtime top 10. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33713 Posts
German fans: When Gabe wins he's German, when he loses he's Italian  | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:48 DieuCure wrote: It's SC2, form is the most important thing, sOs went from Blizzcon Champion to Code A. And ? Showtime was in the same group as him, and I guess you do not rate Showtime top 10. If we lived in an alternative universe where Showtime reguarly traded series and tournament wins with Serral and also got top 2 Blizzcon I would definitely consider him top 10 player even if he had lost an additional series at IEM and thus dropped out. And again, your "bad form" argument is really bad because Reynor lost to the two grand finalists and ZvZ soo, hard to make an argument that he's slumping bad. In any event, I think you vastly overestimate what you need to be to be top 10. For argument sake, let's say the top 10 players of the world are all those in GSL Ro8 right now, but remove Parting and add Rogue. Let's also add Serral. This make 9. I don't think you can really say that any remaining player in the world is better than Reynor, and certainly not "decisively so" that in a way that precludes argumentation. Stats is the only one that comes to mind, but he hasn't had good tournament results in a much longer time than Reynor, so based on your own logic we should discount him. At the very worst, its absolutely inarguable he's a top 12 player, but we are just picking at straws if we are debating top 10 vs top 12 | ||
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:54 Waxangel wrote: German fans: When Gabe wins he's German, when he loses he's Italian *sigh* It's not like Italy can complain about switching sides when it's convenient... | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On May 17 2020 04:43 Pandain wrote: I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall. Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL. Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 17 2020 05:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall. Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL. Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now. How was he at his peak when he got that GSL ro16? That was in mid-2018 and no matter how you cut it he was a much better player in mid-2019. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On May 17 2020 05:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote: How was he at his peak when he got that GSL ro16? That was in mid-2018 and no matter how you cut it he was a much better player in mid-2019. Mid-2019 the Meta was much more Zerg favored than it was the year before. I didn't see a marked improvement in his other match ups aside from just figuring out Serral in ZvZ. So OK I guess you can say his ZvZ got better in 2019. I didn't see any marked improvement in his other match ups. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On May 17 2020 05:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall. Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL. Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now. 1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year) Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted. Perhaps the strongest argument again, that both you and DieuCure failed to mention, is that there really simply is an ever-increasing dearth of the absolute top tier players. We can put in this list Rogue, Serral, Dark, Maru, Innovation (esp, recently), Trap, TY. We can add players like Cure and Dear, even the former has never delivered offline and the latter is highly inconsistent. I'll preclude Stats because he is highly slumping and has done so for more than one tournament in a row now. That's nine players, and who I would agree that are probably better than Reynor (with possible exception of Dear). So who else is there? Who else is there that you think is so much better than Reynor that to say that Reynor is better than him is to "seriously overrate" Reynor. This isn't 2016 anymore with the best 32 koreans probably still being better than all but one foreigners. Because I guarantee you no one left could pull off the results Reynor had in 2019 (again, removing Stats because of multiple bad tournaments now) | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 17 2020 05:56 Vindicare605 wrote: Mid-2019 the Meta was much more Zerg favored than it was the year before. I didn't see a marked improvement in his other match ups aside from just figuring out Serral in ZvZ. So OK I guess you can say his ZvZ got better in 2019. I didn't see any marked improvement in his other match ups. That's an indictment of your observation skills more than anything else. Obviously his ZvZ got better, but also by 2019 he was much less prone to dropping series to weaker players like DnS. And actually winning tournaments obviously. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On May 17 2020 06:06 Pandain wrote: 1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year) Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted. Let me tell you a story, about a player who went to Korea and beat the best and won several WCS championships in a row in an era where his race was favored. He had some of the best vZ and vP in the entire world, and for a while there he absolutely was considered one of the best in the world. His name was Neeb, and he dominated in an OBVIOUSLY Protoss favored meta (just look at the WCS Korea tournament he won and count the Protoss in it) and he won off of the back of a specific playstyle (in his case Adept timings) and after that playstyle got nerfed, he never rose to those heights again. Lately he's dropped off completely. Reynor is a hot item right now, but his race just got nerfed and is going to be nerfed again. The players I consider to be the best in the world, I think can win in any meta even if it isn't favoring their race. I have no evidence that Reynor is not just another Neeb. I personally don't think he is just due to how fast his mechanics are. But he hasn't proven yet that his results last year weren't just the result of 2019 being the year of the Zerg. Talk to me at the end of 2020 after he's won one of the ESL Globals (if they even still happen) and maybe I'll agree with his status there. But even then, this is a weird year for every tournament outside of GSL because every tournament is being forced to be played online so what conclusions can we draw from any of them? Personally I think Reynor's playstyle is going to be hurt by online matches because he plays as fast as he does. If he can win big this year, with all of those things working against him. That will do a TON to get people like me to start agreeing with you. | ||
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