I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
I Don t even know, what you re betting on appart from Special winnig vs Time
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
I Don t even know, what you re betting on appart from Special winnig vs Time
Elazer Harstem will go to at least 4 games Lambo will win at least 2 maps vs uThermal DRG will win at least 2 maps vs Solar SpeCial will win vs TIME Vanya will win at least 1 game vs TY Future will win at least 1 game vs Reynor Drogo will win at least 1 game vs soO Parting will 3-0 MaNa
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
I Don t even know, what you re betting on appart from Special winnig vs Time
Elazer Harstem will go to at least 4 games Lambo will win at least 2 maps vs uThermal DRG will win at least 2 maps vs Solar SpeCial will win vs TIME Vanya will win at least 1 game vs TY Future will win at least 1 game vs Reynor Drogo will win at least 1 game vs soO Parting will 3-0 MaNa
I agree with all voting except Drogo one. I think he will advance, his PvZ is strong and I'm not that impressed by soO's form lately, he's a bit sloppy.
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
I Don t even know, what you re betting on appart from Special winnig vs Time
Elazer Harstem will go to at least 4 games Lambo will win at least 2 maps vs uThermal DRG will win at least 2 maps vs Solar SpeCial will win vs TIME Vanya will win at least 1 game vs TY Future will win at least 1 game vs Reynor Drogo will win at least 1 game vs soO Parting will 3-0 MaNa
Some of them are dubious, to say the least
betting activity like this is why DarkForce decided it would be more lucrative to be a pro-bookmaker than pro-gamer
On May 16 2020 21:16 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: wait this goes on for a month? thats why no B stream?
I'm ok with no B stream but just saw ending date, that would be really bad.
Why would that be bad? It's supposed to be a league-like tournament like GSL, which means it gives enough time in between rounds to let the players prepare for their next set of opponents.
On May 16 2020 21:16 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: wait this goes on for a month? thats why no B stream?
I'm ok with no B stream but just saw ending date, that would be really bad.
Why would that be bad? It's supposed to be a league-like tournament like GSL, which means it gives enough time in between rounds to let the players prepare for their next set of opponents.
Didn't knew that was idea. Then ok. But like HSC, it would be cooler to last for a weekend or so.
On May 16 2020 10:16 ssg wrote: I put 100 dollars each on the following so betting $800 total
Over 3.5 games (-225) in Elazer/Harstem Lambo +1.5 games (even) vs uThermal DRG +1.5 games (even) vs Solar Special to win (-140) vs TIME Vanya +2.5 games (+225) vs TY Future +2.5 games (+225) vs Reynor Ptitdrogo +2.5 games (+110) vs soo Parting -2.5 games (+150) vs Mana
If you want to be rich like myself, I suggest you also place the same bets.
I Don t even know, what you re betting on appart from Special winnig vs Time
Elazer Harstem will go to at least 4 games Lambo will win at least 2 maps vs uThermal DRG will win at least 2 maps vs Solar SpeCial will win vs TIME Vanya will win at least 1 game vs TY Future will win at least 1 game vs Reynor Drogo will win at least 1 game vs soO Parting will 3-0 MaNa
Some of them are dubious, to say the least
betting activity like this is why DarkForce decided it would be more lucrative to be a pro-bookmaker than pro-gamer
Why isn't the second match Special vs TIME btw? I figured getting the only matches with both players in Asian time zones out of the way early would be the play.
If there's one thing i'm hating about 2020 tournaments is how all the best players are seeded past the first round. Now more than ever, we need more Serral, Maru and Dark in our lives.
On May 16 2020 22:19 Morbidius wrote: Fake soO, real one doesn't make "spellcasters".
i smell a huge conspiracy here ;oo zerg is getting nerf and all koreans zerg be like "ahh shiet! imma play donald trump game!" at least dark did man up and injure himself instead ;］
On May 16 2020 22:19 Morbidius wrote: Fake soO, real one doesn't make "spellcasters".
i smell a huge conspiracy here ;oo zerg is getting nerf and all koreans zerg be like "ahh shiet! imma play donald trump game!" at least dark did man up and injure himself instead ;］
looks like fake-soO realized we were catching on to him so he's going to play this next game by throwing infinity lair units into a meatgrinder
You know, I enjoyed it when SoO was the flawless try-hard silver surfer, but I also kind of appreciate just how much his post-victory style & form embodies "I don't give a shit."
On May 16 2020 22:19 Morbidius wrote: Fake soO, real one doesn't make "spellcasters".
i smell a huge conspiracy here ;oo zerg is getting nerf and all koreans zerg be like "ahh shiet! imma play donald trump game!" at least dark did man up and injure himself instead ;］
looks like fake-soO realized we were catching on to him so he's going to play this next game by throwing infinity lair units into a meatgrinder
he tried but drogo still couldnt beat this fake soO :[ now i think i prefer real soO over this fake one this doppelganger is weyy too good
On May 16 2020 22:45 Captain Peabody wrote: You know, I enjoyed it when SoO was the flawless try-hard silver surfer, but I also kind of appreciate just how much his post-victory style & form embodies "I don't give a shit."
You should watch his games vs Scarlett in the iTaX Pro Circuit
Can't believe TY loses because he doesn't actually send the SCVs from the 3rd to fight, he just pulls them forward and then they sat there afk for 2 minutes.
remember how zergs complained about reapers being t1 units that deal 10 dmg with their grenades so they got nerfed down to 5 dmg and a 14 sec cooldown all the while having t1 ravager biles and 60 dmg on a 7 sec cd?
On May 16 2020 23:59 Kaizor wrote: No idea what wardi and zg was talking about. Vanya had a strong push coming and TY didnt have enough army to defend and i was starting to worry.
Vanya's army is a lot of supply but garbage units. If TY pulls SCV there to block the roach ravager from getting on top of everything so quickly he holds.
On May 16 2020 23:59 Kaizor wrote: No idea what wardi and zg was talking about. Vanya had a strong push coming and TY didnt have enough army to defend and i was starting to worry.
Vanya's army is a lot of supply but garbage units. If TY pulls SCV there to block the roach ravager from getting on top of everything so quickly he holds.
TY never had more then 3 tanks, and handful of marines. Not like SCV's would help a lot.
On May 16 2020 23:59 Kaizor wrote: No idea what wardi and zg was talking about. Vanya had a strong push coming and TY didnt have enough army to defend and i was starting to worry.
Vanya's army is a lot of supply but garbage units. If TY pulls SCV there to block the roach ravager from getting on top of everything so quickly he holds.
TY never had more then 3 tanks, and handful of marines. Not like SCV's would help a lot.
If they release the replay, i would be interested in seeing if TY did not forget about the group of scvs would have helped.
But anyway i also felt that TY didnt have enough to hold. garbage units or not.
On May 16 2020 23:59 fastr wrote: Gonna say it now, Vanya about to 3-0 TY with his OP roach ravager playstyle, providing the biggest TSL upset since Mvp vs Adelscott ro64 in TSL 3.
In retrospect, few of the TSL3 upsets "aged well," since Koreans continued to dominate live tournaments afterward, and players like GoOdy and Adelscott never repeated those feats offline. If not for the incredible ThorZaIN storyline, TSL3 really could have been remembered in a different way.
On May 16 2020 23:59 fastr wrote: Gonna say it now, Vanya about to 3-0 TY with his OP roach ravager playstyle, providing the biggest TSL upset since Mvp vs Adelscott ro64 in TSL 3.
In retrospect, few of the TSL3 upsets "aged well," since Koreans continued to dominate live tournaments afterward, and players like GoOdy and Adelscott never repeated those feats offline. If not for the incredible ThorZaIN storyline, TSL3 really could have been remembered in a different way.
On May 16 2020 23:59 fastr wrote: Gonna say it now, Vanya about to 3-0 TY with his OP roach ravager playstyle, providing the biggest TSL upset since Mvp vs Adelscott ro64 in TSL 3.
In retrospect, few of the TSL3 upsets "aged well," since Koreans continued to dominate live tournaments afterward, and players like GoOdy and Adelscott never repeated those feats offline. If not for the incredible ThorZaIN storyline, TSL3 really could have been remembered in a different way.
Watching Thorzain take out Fruitdealer and MC still give me the chills till this day.
I think thats why most people rememeber TSL 3 more fondly than 4.
On May 16 2020 23:59 fastr wrote: Gonna say it now, Vanya about to 3-0 TY with his OP roach ravager playstyle, providing the biggest TSL upset since Mvp vs Adelscott ro64 in TSL 3.
In retrospect, few of the TSL3 upsets "aged well," since Koreans continued to dominate live tournaments afterward, and players like GoOdy and Adelscott never repeated those feats offline. If not for the incredible ThorZaIN storyline, TSL3 really could have been remembered in a different way.
Watching Thorzain take out Fruitdealer and MC still give me the chills till this day.
I think thats why most people rememeber TSL 3 more fondly than 4.
ahh gud fucking old time ;] where thors could carry mini nuke on thier back
On May 16 2020 23:59 fastr wrote: Gonna say it now, Vanya about to 3-0 TY with his OP roach ravager playstyle, providing the biggest TSL upset since Mvp vs Adelscott ro64 in TSL 3.
In retrospect, few of the TSL3 upsets "aged well," since Koreans continued to dominate live tournaments afterward, and players like GoOdy and Adelscott never repeated those feats offline. If not for the incredible ThorZaIN storyline, TSL3 really could have been remembered in a different way.
WoL was an interesting time. Because the game was far from figured out, there were some players with truly terrible mechanics who managed to win games thanks to their unique play styles, leaving their opponent stumped. Adelscott beat Mvp with mass upgraded gateway units at a time when every protoss went 2 base colossus every game, Goody played mech at a time when it was thought to be nonviable... Thorzain was truly a great player though, with excellent macro and late game abilities, I feel like he was ahead of his time, unlike the one trick ponies cited earlier.
On May 17 2020 00:37 Morbidius wrote: I thought we had new meomaika for a second.
Vanya is much better than Meomaika though
Objectively speaking yes. But also objectively speaking, Meomaika beat Maru at WESG last year.
And that was perhaps the biggest upset in SC2 history. Vanya winning here would a surprise, but nothing completely out of the ordinary, big upsets happen fairly regularly
Man I just don't want to watch TvZ today after seeing Maru vs Ragnarok. Everything else just looks like it's being played in slow motion. Gonna take a little while for that feeling to wear off.
Today was great but I feel like tomorrow is the real beginning. All the matches tomorrow are absolutely sick and cream of the crop, and even in the losers matches later on people are fighting for their lives.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
It's SC2, form is the most important thing, sOs went from Blizzcon Champion to Code A. And ? Showtime was in the same group as him, and I guess you do not rate Showtime top 10.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
It's SC2, form is the most important thing, sOs went from Blizzcon Champion to Code A. And ? Showtime was in the same group as him, and I guess you do not rate Showtime top 10.
If we lived in an alternative universe where Showtime reguarly traded series and tournament wins with Serral and also got top 2 Blizzcon I would definitely consider him top 10 player even if he had lost an additional series at IEM and thus dropped out.
And again, your "bad form" argument is really bad because Reynor lost to the two grand finalists and ZvZ soo, hard to make an argument that he's slumping bad.
In any event, I think you vastly overestimate what you need to be to be top 10.
For argument sake, let's say the top 10 players of the world are all those in GSL Ro8 right now, but remove Parting and add Rogue. Let's also add Serral. This make 9. I don't think you can really say that any remaining player in the world is better than Reynor, and certainly not "decisively so" that in a way that precludes argumentation. Stats is the only one that comes to mind, but he hasn't had good tournament results in a much longer time than Reynor, so based on your own logic we should discount him.
At the very worst, its absolutely inarguable he's a top 12 player, but we are just picking at straws if we are debating top 10 vs top 12
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
How was he at his peak when he got that GSL ro16? That was in mid-2018 and no matter how you cut it he was a much better player in mid-2019.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
How was he at his peak when he got that GSL ro16? That was in mid-2018 and no matter how you cut it he was a much better player in mid-2019.
Mid-2019 the Meta was much more Zerg favored than it was the year before. I didn't see a marked improvement in his other match ups aside from just figuring out Serral in ZvZ. So OK I guess you can say his ZvZ got better in 2019. I didn't see any marked improvement in his other match ups.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year)
Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted.
Perhaps the strongest argument again, that both you and DieuCure failed to mention, is that there really simply is an ever-increasing dearth of the absolute top tier players. We can put in this list Rogue, Serral, Dark, Maru, Innovation (esp, recently), Trap, TY. We can add players like Cure and Dear, even the former has never delivered offline and the latter is highly inconsistent. I'll preclude Stats because he is highly slumping and has done so for more than one tournament in a row now.
That's nine players, and who I would agree that are probably better than Reynor (with possible exception of Dear). So who else is there? Who else is there that you think is so much better than Reynor that to say that Reynor is better than him is to "seriously overrate" Reynor. This isn't 2016 anymore with the best 32 koreans probably still being better than all but one foreigners. Because I guarantee you no one left could pull off the results Reynor had in 2019 (again, removing Stats because of multiple bad tournaments now)
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
How was he at his peak when he got that GSL ro16? That was in mid-2018 and no matter how you cut it he was a much better player in mid-2019.
Mid-2019 the Meta was much more Zerg favored than it was the year before. I didn't see a marked improvement in his other match ups aside from just figuring out Serral in ZvZ. So OK I guess you can say his ZvZ got better in 2019. I didn't see any marked improvement in his other match ups.
That's an indictment of your observation skills more than anything else. Obviously his ZvZ got better, but also by 2019 he was much less prone to dropping series to weaker players like DnS. And actually winning tournaments obviously.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year)
Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted.
Let me tell you a story, about a player who went to Korea and beat the best and won several WCS championships in a row in an era where his race was favored. He had some of the best vZ and vP in the entire world, and for a while there he absolutely was considered one of the best in the world.
His name was Neeb, and he dominated in an OBVIOUSLY Protoss favored meta (just look at the WCS Korea tournament he won and count the Protoss in it) and he won off of the back of a specific playstyle (in his case Adept timings) and after that playstyle got nerfed, he never rose to those heights again. Lately he's dropped off completely.
Reynor is a hot item right now, but his race just got nerfed and is going to be nerfed again. The players I consider to be the best in the world, I think can win in any meta even if it isn't favoring their race.
I have no evidence that Reynor is not just another Neeb. I personally don't think he is just due to how fast his mechanics are. But he hasn't proven yet that his results last year weren't just the result of 2019 being the year of the Zerg. Talk to me at the end of 2020 after he's won one of the ESL Globals (if they even still happen) and maybe I'll agree with his status there.
But even then, this is a weird year for every tournament outside of GSL because every tournament is being forced to be played online so what conclusions can we draw from any of them? Personally I think Reynor's playstyle is going to be hurt by online matches because he plays as fast as he does. If he can win big this year, with all of those things working against him. That will do a TON to get people like me to start agreeing with you.
On May 17 2020 04:35 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Raynor is just a different class:/
Reynor is a top 10 player worldwide while Future is a great but not even top 10 foreign player
Top 10 ? The last metric we have for him is Katowice, he was top24, and it's not because he is 6 on aligulac that it's accurate.
I'm not going to let one bad tournament performance make the runner up to Blizzcon suddenly out of the top ten players worldwide, particuarly when he dropped out in IEM losing to the two grand finalists (Rogue and Zest, who also beat Serral) as well as ZvZ soo
Oh please. So he's good at ZvZ and can beat Serral in that match up, so what? That doesn't make him top 10 in the world. Let's see him repeat his previous success without the benefit of an extremely advantaged Zerg meta behind him. That Blizzcon was 5/8 Zerg if you recall.
Even at his peak he couldn't do better than Ro16 in GSL.
Reynor's good with plenty of room to get better since he's so young, but you're severely overrating him as he is now.
1. Reynor's peak was in 2019 (when he actually won tournaments) and he never competed for a GSL in 2019. He lost in GSL vs the World to Special in Ro16, and I'll certainly grant you his ZvT was weaker than his other matchups. 2. His series with Serral were some of the best series of all time in any matchup and a serious display of skill. If you want to reduce that to just "lol zvz" then that's your right and I can't argue with you. He also had awesome ZvP displayed at Blizzcon and took out both hero and Trap (the latter being the best protoss of the year)
Balance certainly plays a role, but its highly misleading for you to then go to the opposite extreme and say that his results should be mostly discounted.
Let me tell you a story, about a player who went to Korea and beat the best and won several WCS championships in a row in an era where his race was favored. He had some of the best vZ and vP in the entire world, and for a while there he absolutely was considered one of the best in the world.
His name was Neeb, and he dominated in an OBVIOUSLY Protoss favored meta (just look at the WCS Korea tournament he won and count the Protoss in it) and he won off of the back of a specific playstyle (in his case Adept timings) and after that playstyle got nerfed, he never rose to those heights again. Lately he's dropped off completely.
Reynor is a hot item right now, but his race just got nerfed and is going to be nerfed again. The players I consider to be the best in the world, I think can win in any meta even if it isn't favoring their race.
I have no evidence that Reynor is not just another Neeb. I personally don't think he is just due to how fast his mechanics are. But he hasn't proven yet that his results last year weren't just the result of 2019 being the year of the Zerg. Talk to me at the end of 2020 after he's won one of the ESL Globals (if they even still happen) and maybe I'll agree with his status there.
But even then, this is a weird year for every tournament outside of GSL because every tournament is being forced to be played online so what conclusions can we draw from any of them? Personally I think Reynor's playstyle is going to be hurt by online matches because he plays as fast as he does. If he can win big this year, with all of those things working against him. That will do a TON to get people like me to start agreeing with you.
I'm glad that Reynor winning an ESL Global would make you rethink whether or not he is a top ten player.
I could be convinced for a lot less. I actually am a fan of his. I'm just pointing out what would seal the deal for sure not just with me but with everyone.
I just want for his career to develop more, see where he goes after playing in multiple metas.
He's so young and he rose up so quick it's hard to gauge where he is now that the meta has shifted. He's also got rivals with guys like Clem coming up too.
Reynor does have a ton of respect from me for actually going to compete in Code S so few EU pros ever do. I want him to go back and he's expressed his desire to. If he does, then we'll get a really good gauge there too where he is now. Course with COVID being a thing and his being Italian that's unlikely to be allowed either for a while.
So I guess Rogue is not a top player now, since he dropped out of Super Tournament and Code S. Ah, he also wasn't last year before winning Code S, given that his results were poor.
You admit that Neeb at his peak was one of the best players in the world. At his peak at HSC, Reynor looked better than Serral and actually performed better than him(even if he lost in the end); Neeb indeed won a KeSpa Cup but never reached a BlizzCon final(the second non korean to do so). Reynor is performing worse in 2020 than he did last year but there should be no reason to doubt that he currently still is a top 10 player, apart of being reluctant to recognize his strenght because he is not korean.
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
No I'm saying Neeb is that.That WCS he won was regionlocked to only NA, remember how I said at the top levels? I mean seriously look at this! 2019 WCS Winter/Americas How is THAT considered a premier tournament? That tournament is why he won his spot at Blizzcon.
I'm saying Reynor hasn't had a long enough career to really accurately gauge anything about him. Is he hype now? Absolutely! Can we say definitively how good he is yet? No, he could get better he could regress, he's never had a slump before we don't know how he'd come back from one of if he did.
I get that people are excited about him, but overhype is overhype. I am not one for overhype and I'll call it out when I see it.
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level
The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level
The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo
So I suppose you think it's just a random coincidence that we had THAT many ZvZ finals last year.
Get real. No one believes that except people pushing an agenda. It's such an accepted truth that even Blizzard is acting on it now FINALLY and we all know how long it takes for them to act on anything.
On May 17 2020 10:49 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm talking about a guy that hasn't been relevant at the top level in almost 2 years.
Neeb was in the blizzcon last year, and was in blizzcon the year before. How can you say a blizzcon player is not relevant at the top level lol. In 2019, Neeb won one of the three Premier tournaments Protoss won that year.
In 2018 he was a Code S quarterfinalist. Obviously in 2017 he dominated the foreigner circuit and won a KESPA cup in 2016, which is still an unprecedented feat for a foreigner to this day
As for reynor - I'm with you - I don't think he's a top 10 player, but he's awfully close and I wouldnt even say it's ridiculous to call him one. He has more than proven that he's not just "a hot item right now"
Reynor is a prodigy. He was out in Korea eliminating Classic and Ryung in the GSL Code S when he was like 15 lol. He eliminated Serral, Trap and Hero last blizzcon. The idea that 2019 was zerg favored is a myth anyway.
At HSC, he went 1-1 with innovation and parting in the group stage. Then he eliminated Cure, 3-0’d zest, and 3-0’d innovation. Last of all, he has been a nemesis to serral himself, something that is very rare, to say the least.
Youre acting like Neeb and Reynor are just flash in the pan who rely on favorable patches, when that is clearly not the case.
Wow. I think you've just found the absolute worst argument that you could have made.
People were telling me that when I've been saying the meta isnt protoss favored throughout 2018-2019. And look at the type of PvZs and PvTs we've ended up with at the highest level
The same thing is happening to zerg now imo because the mainstream analysis of the meta has been frequently wrong over the last 2-3 years imo
So I suppose you think it's just a random coincidence that we had THAT many ZvZ finals last year.
Get real. No one believes that except people pushing an agenda. It's such an accepted truth that even Blizzard is acting on it now FINALLY and we all know how long it takes for them to act on anything.
I have no agenda.
We had 3 ZvZ finals (out of 12 possible) in Premier tournaments in which Koreans were allowed to participate in. Hardly "that many" when you take into account the fact that the greatest Terran and Protoss players in the world are Koreans. The difference is that an anomaly, a Zerg player who is as good as Korea's best of the best, exists in europe and nobody there was really able to contend with him except a zerg prodigy in reynor once in a while. Meanwhile Terran did fine - winning i think 3/10 of the premier tournaments in which koreans were allowed.
The fact of the matter is that before the overlord speed buff and warp prism nerf (among other changes introduced during that time period), the mainstream analysis and therefore Blizzard's balance goals, as they stated in their balance updates iirc, were still generally anti protoss (which is why OL speed was buffed and WP was nerfed to begin with - forge nerf were huge too). There were questions raised about Protoss performance, specifically against zerg, in Korea - namely 2 base timings namely immortal all-ins that led to things like 5/8 protoss in ST1 ro8 which Blizzard took to heart and addressed in its balance updates around midyear. You ended up with a Protoss that, in prior patches, had it's lategame nerfed for the sake of TvP and a midgame that was nerfed for ZvP, meaning that the resulting ZvP games towards the second half of the year looked brutal. I don't know how everyone already forgot what the sentiment was during early-mid 2019 - people were freaking out about Protoss midgame strength which led to forge nerf, stim buff, OL speed buff, immortal nerf, warp prism nerf, and even chargelot nerf that came....and people wonder why all the protoss players who were doing well early 2019 and got a lot of points to enter blizzcon suddenly started getting slaughtered, making Zerg look really broken.
So yea. I don't think 2019 was "zerg favored" as much as it was Protoss getting hammered at the least opportune moments, metagame wise.
As wombat always used to say - pvz 2 base all ins were nerfed as soon as zerg started learning to defend against them and you end up with a disaster
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