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On May 30 2019 01:17 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:On May 30 2019 00:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 30 2019 00:06 NbaLover wrote:On May 29 2019 23:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 29 2019 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On May 29 2019 22:48 Need wrote:On May 29 2019 22:26 JoeCool wrote:On May 29 2019 21:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
Yet another flawless group for Glorious Protoss Master Race Is this really because they are protoss or were they the better players? Unfortunately I can't watch GSl this season but so far the results kinda line up with my expectations. Really? How many of the current RO8 Protoss players are in their first RO8 for a long time/ever? Did they all simultaneously improve on the most recent patch? The results line up with my expectations only because I've adjusted my expectations to expect lots of green The only real "Protoss OP" result we've seen in the ro16 is Parting winning group B and it is counteracted by Dear going 0-4. Hurricane getting out of Group A doesn't apply since RagnaroK is a player who was considering joining the WCS Circuit because he was getting no results in Korea and FanTaSy is just out of retirement and was never a top player. Well RO32 had Patience taking out Maru and Inno to top his group. You make it sound like all we have seen are expected results, you know Trap has been playing GSL since 2012 and he has NEVER made ro8 until this year. Yeah sure, Trap was obvious pick for first in his group into ro8.....herO recently came back to sc2 and is rusty, expecting him to easily win as if its exptected is not for sure either. Sure he's posted good results so its not surprising but if he wasn't protoss he wouldn't really be especially favored in the group. Just to be clear, I hope you consider that Impact topped his group against Zest, Gumiho and Trust, its not like he got out of an easy group. And that both Special and Ragnarok got here knocking out TY and sOs, not easy opponents either, you make it sound like Ragnarok, SpeCial and Fantasy lucked out by beating Armani or something to get to RO16. Fantasy moved on by defeating Leenock and Rogue....... So to summarize we have multiple up and coming (back and coming) zerg/terran players that are seriously posting good results, like defeating TY, sOs, Zest and Gumiho. The same can be said for the protoss players, Hurricane defeated Solar to move on and Parting took down Cure. But for some reason its seems its always the protoss players that win out, over and over again multiple tournaments in a row. AfreecaPvP should be a thing. Lol based on this argument against Trap. I guess Maru is a scrub as well. The kid has won nothing in GSL until last year and all a sudden he wins 4 straight GSL. But the terran fan army will say "Maru GOAT". That is why majority of fans/players don't take Terrna fanboys opinion seriously. What o_o I never said Trap is a scrub, I'm a fan of Trap, his play recently has been great, that doesn't mean him topping his group is an obvious expected result. Do you even read the comment i replied to? He was saying all the protoss were exptected to move on because they are superior players than the zergs and terrans in their group. I simply disagree with that, Trap, Hurricane and herO were not clear favorites to move on. That was all I said, that a player isn't a favorite to move on from a group doesn't equal me calling them a scrub...... Please elaborate your agument. Also the kid had actually already gotten a double crown before 2018, both an OSL and SSL championship as well as (unlike Trap whom never made RO8 and still isn't a scrub) three GSL seminfinals appearences. Oh so now other championships BESIDES GSL mean something? Or does that only work when we talk about any Terran players? For the past year didn't most korean elitist dumped on all of serral's accomplishment outside of GSL? I believe most people had herO and Trap as the favorites out of the group. No one was too surprised by it. I think more people would have been surprised if Special got out of the group in first. Hurricane really? Worst case it was a coin flip between him and Rag. Fantasy has no business advancing to RO8 and I was cheering for him too. Don't know why terran's just cant accept that as of right now, there are just more toss players that are just better than terran players. Zerg haven't won jack in GSL for years, but we don't see them complaining and crying about balance as much as terrans. When a average Terran player upset a top Zerg/Toss. Terran defense "he played BAD! had an OFF day. But Toss and zerg still Op!" (I.e Stats losing in RO32) When the opposite happens. Terran tear army "demands nerf for other races and buff for terrans, etc etc" Let's all be honest here, Maru entered the s2 scene at a very very young age. Maru winning these GSLs were simply because the other top korean pros are declining and not in their prime anymore. If you can't at least see this fact, I don't know what to say to you I personally rank Innovation above him So just to be clear, you're saying the Protoss players improved and are just better players but Maru, who joined the scene at a young age, is only good because people are declining? It couldn't possibly be that a young player improves over time especially when most of the Koreans at that time were mostly veterans from BW. I wonder what your previous account was and when it got banned.
Na it's my only account. Been lurkering for years but finally decide to make an account since the whining and complaining about balance is getting way out of hand.
Where did say Protoss players improved? I said they are "better", doesn't mean they improved. Skill wise almost everyone in the korean scene is declining. It's quite of obvious if you compare the same player now and what they were a few years ago. Best example is herO, zest, innovation, etc.
Maru is still in his prime whereas the other koreans are slowly exiting. Not rocket science.
But if we are to compare prime vs prime. I'm pretty sure majority of the people would say innovation or even TY > Maru prime
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On May 30 2019 00:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:
we have seen worse situations in the past.
No we have not. As I mentioned already, in the GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And competitive professional BW tournaments in Korea go back to 1999.
Yes, it's the worse ro8 distribution(and yet, Gumiho reached the finals…) but there were worse ro32(17, 20 and 19 Terran in three consecutive seasons of GoMTvT), worse ro16 and worse ro4(respectively 10/16 and 4/4 Terran, Code S October 2011 says hello).
There is indeed a strong chanche we are in one uncommon balance situation at the moment; it has to be noted tho that Blink Stalker Protossfest in 2014, and GoMTvT in 2011 lasted for months, and while in the BL Infestor era Zerg weren't overwhelming in numbers in the brackets(four at best), there were three consecutive Zerg Champions.
The current perceived ""Super opness" of Protoss may just result in a single Super Tournament champion(no variation from 2018) or it might make them win a Code S after two years and half for a total of two consecutive GSL tournaments(Protoss in WCS aren't looking that scary, on the other hand); overall winrates aren't especially alarming so that maybe other races not finding solutions and notable players slumping are making a small imbalance look like enormous and impassable(or maybe they are truly op and the current trend won't stop), I am quite sure if Terran were in Protoss' place everyone would be happier. Thus said, reducing Warp Prism-Immortals strenght while making Carriers viable again seems appropriate to me and could help.
On Maru against Trap, Maru's career before 2018 was definitely better than Trap's before 2019;I just want to point out Maru won Code S S3 against TY(a Terran) and that at the moment, Protoss are not winning left and right: there is a lot of them around having good results but in the end they are winning as many tournaments as the other races in 2019.
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On May 30 2019 01:31 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 01:17 Moonerz wrote:On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:On May 30 2019 00:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 30 2019 00:06 NbaLover wrote:On May 29 2019 23:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 29 2019 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On May 29 2019 22:48 Need wrote:On May 29 2019 22:26 JoeCool wrote:On May 29 2019 21:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
Yet another flawless group for Glorious Protoss Master Race Is this really because they are protoss or were they the better players? Unfortunately I can't watch GSl this season but so far the results kinda line up with my expectations. Really? How many of the current RO8 Protoss players are in their first RO8 for a long time/ever? Did they all simultaneously improve on the most recent patch? The results line up with my expectations only because I've adjusted my expectations to expect lots of green The only real "Protoss OP" result we've seen in the ro16 is Parting winning group B and it is counteracted by Dear going 0-4. Hurricane getting out of Group A doesn't apply since RagnaroK is a player who was considering joining the WCS Circuit because he was getting no results in Korea and FanTaSy is just out of retirement and was never a top player. Well RO32 had Patience taking out Maru and Inno to top his group. You make it sound like all we have seen are expected results, you know Trap has been playing GSL since 2012 and he has NEVER made ro8 until this year. Yeah sure, Trap was obvious pick for first in his group into ro8.....herO recently came back to sc2 and is rusty, expecting him to easily win as if its exptected is not for sure either. Sure he's posted good results so its not surprising but if he wasn't protoss he wouldn't really be especially favored in the group. Just to be clear, I hope you consider that Impact topped his group against Zest, Gumiho and Trust, its not like he got out of an easy group. And that both Special and Ragnarok got here knocking out TY and sOs, not easy opponents either, you make it sound like Ragnarok, SpeCial and Fantasy lucked out by beating Armani or something to get to RO16. Fantasy moved on by defeating Leenock and Rogue....... So to summarize we have multiple up and coming (back and coming) zerg/terran players that are seriously posting good results, like defeating TY, sOs, Zest and Gumiho. The same can be said for the protoss players, Hurricane defeated Solar to move on and Parting took down Cure. But for some reason its seems its always the protoss players that win out, over and over again multiple tournaments in a row. AfreecaPvP should be a thing. Lol based on this argument against Trap. I guess Maru is a scrub as well. The kid has won nothing in GSL until last year and all a sudden he wins 4 straight GSL. But the terran fan army will say "Maru GOAT". That is why majority of fans/players don't take Terrna fanboys opinion seriously. What o_o I never said Trap is a scrub, I'm a fan of Trap, his play recently has been great, that doesn't mean him topping his group is an obvious expected result. Do you even read the comment i replied to? He was saying all the protoss were exptected to move on because they are superior players than the zergs and terrans in their group. I simply disagree with that, Trap, Hurricane and herO were not clear favorites to move on. That was all I said, that a player isn't a favorite to move on from a group doesn't equal me calling them a scrub...... Please elaborate your agument. Also the kid had actually already gotten a double crown before 2018, both an OSL and SSL championship as well as (unlike Trap whom never made RO8 and still isn't a scrub) three GSL seminfinals appearences. Oh so now other championships BESIDES GSL mean something? Or does that only work when we talk about any Terran players? For the past year didn't most korean elitist dumped on all of serral's accomplishment outside of GSL? I believe most people had herO and Trap as the favorites out of the group. No one was too surprised by it. I think more people would have been surprised if Special got out of the group in first. Hurricane really? Worst case it was a coin flip between him and Rag. Fantasy has no business advancing to RO8 and I was cheering for him too. Don't know why terran's just cant accept that as of right now, there are just more toss players that are just better than terran players. Zerg haven't won jack in GSL for years, but we don't see them complaining and crying about balance as much as terrans. When a average Terran player upset a top Zerg/Toss. Terran defense "he played BAD! had an OFF day. But Toss and zerg still Op!" (I.e Stats losing in RO32) When the opposite happens. Terran tear army "demands nerf for other races and buff for terrans, etc etc" Let's all be honest here, Maru entered the s2 scene at a very very young age. Maru winning these GSLs were simply because the other top korean pros are declining and not in their prime anymore. If you can't at least see this fact, I don't know what to say to you I personally rank Innovation above him So just to be clear, you're saying the Protoss players improved and are just better players but Maru, who joined the scene at a young age, is only good because people are declining? It couldn't possibly be that a young player improves over time especially when most of the Koreans at that time were mostly veterans from BW. I wonder what your previous account was and when it got banned. Na it's my only account. Been lurkering for years but finally decide to make an account since the whining and complaining about balance is getting way out of hand. Where did say Protoss players improved? I said they are "better", doesn't mean they improved. Skill wise almost everyone in the korean scene is declining. It's quite of obvious if you compare the same player now and what they were a few years ago. Best example is herO, zest, innovation, etc. Maru is still in his prime whereas the other koreans are slowly exiting. Not rocket science. But if we are to compare prime vs prime. I'm pretty sure majority of the people would say innovation or even TY > Maru prime
Nope. Innovation would compare favorably and that would be a legitimate discussion. Ty has literally one tournament win and actually the year after TY won WESG, Maru won it. Not to mention Maru's OSL and SSL championships.
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On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Oh so now other championships BESIDES GSL mean something? Or does that only work when we talk about any Terran players? For the past year didn't most korean elitist dumped on all of serral's accomplishment outside of GSL?
Please do your research before being so needlessly aggressive. We now live in the time when we have Afreeca GSL, before that until 2015 we hade GOMTV GSL, we have also had ongamenets OSL and SPOTVs SSL.
So you could say that we in SC2 have had four different organizers doing GSL style tournaments in korea, either way all four of these leagues shared the same (or similar) structure and the same players. SSL and OSL have a different name from Afreecas or GOMTVs GSL but they are essentially the exact same tournament that are equally hard and equally competetive as their counterpart. Therefore OSL and SSL results are equal to GSL results while on the other hand Serral winning WCS tournaments is indeed worth a lot lot lot less (in my opinion). (why are we even discussing this in a thread about todays results?)
On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
I believe most people had herO and Trap as the favorites out of the group. No one was too surprised by it. I think more people would have been surprised if Special got out of the group in first.
Interesting, do you have any source on this "belief" of yours, TLs article on the topic had Trap and Impact predicted to advance. You see Impact defeated both Zest and Trust to advance to the RO16. Trap defeated Scarlett and herO and herO defeated Keen twice. SpeCial got there by beating sOs twice. Both Impact and SpeCial won vs decent P to get into RO16 Trap and herOs results of Scarlett and Keen pale in comparison to the opposition Impact and SpeCial went through to get there. The group was super close, no one was particularly favored, you could argue Trap because of his result the last couple of month but its not as cut and dry as you and others make it out to be. Logically by recent result in this GSL both SpeCial and Impact could be argued for having a better chance than the protoss since they defeated strong protosses to get into a group of two more protosses.
I'll ask again, do you have any basis for said "belief", I just explained my basis for why its close. In general though it could be said that the result was predictable since this year, all you've had to do to predict result with 60-70% success rate you would just need to bet on the protoss.
On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Hurricane really? Worst case it was a coin flip between him and Rag. Fantasy has no business advancing to RO8 and I was cheering for him too.
Do you have any basis for any of these personal opinions? Your personal opinions doesn't become subjective facts just because you state them confidently. Fantasy actually defeated both Leenock and Rogue to get into the RO 16, he definitely deserved his place and is no pushover. Fantasy even defeated SpeCial, Solar and Ragnarok just to qualify for GSL. He defeated Ragnarok to get into GSL and then random TL poster boldly claims he has no business being in the same group as the guy he defeated because he is obviously far inferior? The irony is too strong.
On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
When a average Terran player upset a top Zerg/Toss.
Terran defense "he played BAD! had an OFF day. But Toss and zerg still Op!" (I.e Stats losing in RO32)
When the opposite happens. Terran tear army "demands nerf for other races and buff for terrans, etc etc"
Protoss fanbois really makes no sense, when terran is doing well in tournaments its all because terrans are OP. Terran dominates GSL and protoss havent won in x seasons, its so badly balanced. Of course it cant be because the terran champions are actually better than the players of other races
When all of a sudden all protoss players are destroying the other races, its all because On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
there are just more toss players that are just better than terran players.
On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Let's all be honest here, Maru entered the s2 scene at a very very young age. Maru winning these GSLs were simply because the other top korean pros are declining and not in their prime anymore. If you can't at least see this fact, I don't know what to say to you
Actually since 2012 all starcraft 2 players have actually declined, MVP is the best player there ever was and nowadays its more a question of who is the least bad will win the championships.
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Northern Ireland25132 Posts
On May 30 2019 01:31 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:On May 30 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:
we have seen worse situations in the past.
No we have not. As I mentioned already, in the GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And competitive professional BW tournaments in Korea go back to 1999. Yes, it's the worse ro8 distribution(and yet, Gumiho reached the finals…) but there were worse ro32(17, 20 and 19 Terran in three consecutive seasons of GoMTvT), worse ro16 and worse ro4(respectively 10/16 and 4/4 Terran, Code S October 2011 says hello). There is indeed a strong chanche we are in one uncommon balance situation at the moment; it has to be noted tho that Blink Stalker Protossfest in 2014, and GoMTvT in 2011 lasted for months, and while in the BL Infestor era Zerg weren't overwhelming in numbers in the brackets(four at best), there were three consecutive Zerg Champions. The current perceived ""Super opness" of Protoss may just result in a single Super Tournament champion(no variation from 2018) or it might make them win a Code S after two years and half for a total of two consecutive GSL tournaments(Protoss in WCS aren't looking that scary, on the other hand); overall winrates aren't especially alarming so that maybe other races not finding solutions and notable players slumping are making a small imbalance look like enormous and impassable(or maybe they are truly op and the current trend won't stop), I am quite sure if Terran were in Protoss' place everyone would be happier. Thus said, reducing Warp Prism-Immortals strenght while making Carriers viable again seems appropriate to me and could help. On Maru against Trap, Maru's career before 2018 was definitely better than Trap's before 2019;I just want to point out Maru won Code S S3 against TY(a Terran) and that at the moment, Protoss are not winning left and right: there is a lot of them around having good results but in the end they are winning as many tournaments as the other races in 2019.
I had Trap as my pick for a deep run this GSL on form and his trend in a thread here, he looked good here. herO/Special/Impact were all players I felt could advance, depending which one showed up on the day. Impact decided to channel his inner Dear and not show up at all.
I haven’t seen too much egregious at all and after my relatively long hiatus I consume a ton of SC content these days, including every GSL series this time around,
Perhaps the break makes me more sanguine, outside of other design concerns I have if anything Protoss is the best race in a certain abstract RTS sense.
If Terran kind of have to be aggressive, and Zerg have to be defensive, Protoss can kind of do both. Protoss have a lot of technical units that good players can get more use of, or actively prefer to use. Protoss don’t really have a (borderline) unkillable super composition in the super late game too, which I think is a good thing.
We have a lot of Protoss players with completely different styles and strengths and weaknesses too. As a player and a theorycrafter I’m way towards the Stats end of the scale, but I can appreciate the risk taking and the balls of a Parting or a herO too.
Stripped away from balance as per the other races, Protoss is actually in a pretty good spot IMO. Lots of tools that are viable, lots of compositions that are viable and you can apply them in a range of different ways.
I’ve enjoyed this GSL a lot, a few matches go different ways and the distribution is very different. WCS just had a great distribution the whole way through the tournament, and while not GSL level it’s still a very high level that shouldn’t be discounted out of hand.
I’m not really rooting for Protoss this season outside of wanting Classic to win before military, and I dislike too many mirrors late in a tournament, I’m not actively rooting against them either.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 30 2019 01:31 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 01:17 Moonerz wrote:On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:On May 30 2019 00:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 30 2019 00:06 NbaLover wrote:On May 29 2019 23:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 29 2019 23:08 Boggyb wrote:On May 29 2019 22:48 Need wrote:On May 29 2019 22:26 JoeCool wrote:On May 29 2019 21:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
Yet another flawless group for Glorious Protoss Master Race Is this really because they are protoss or were they the better players? Unfortunately I can't watch GSl this season but so far the results kinda line up with my expectations. Really? How many of the current RO8 Protoss players are in their first RO8 for a long time/ever? Did they all simultaneously improve on the most recent patch? The results line up with my expectations only because I've adjusted my expectations to expect lots of green The only real "Protoss OP" result we've seen in the ro16 is Parting winning group B and it is counteracted by Dear going 0-4. Hurricane getting out of Group A doesn't apply since RagnaroK is a player who was considering joining the WCS Circuit because he was getting no results in Korea and FanTaSy is just out of retirement and was never a top player. Well RO32 had Patience taking out Maru and Inno to top his group. You make it sound like all we have seen are expected results, you know Trap has been playing GSL since 2012 and he has NEVER made ro8 until this year. Yeah sure, Trap was obvious pick for first in his group into ro8.....herO recently came back to sc2 and is rusty, expecting him to easily win as if its exptected is not for sure either. Sure he's posted good results so its not surprising but if he wasn't protoss he wouldn't really be especially favored in the group. Just to be clear, I hope you consider that Impact topped his group against Zest, Gumiho and Trust, its not like he got out of an easy group. And that both Special and Ragnarok got here knocking out TY and sOs, not easy opponents either, you make it sound like Ragnarok, SpeCial and Fantasy lucked out by beating Armani or something to get to RO16. Fantasy moved on by defeating Leenock and Rogue....... So to summarize we have multiple up and coming (back and coming) zerg/terran players that are seriously posting good results, like defeating TY, sOs, Zest and Gumiho. The same can be said for the protoss players, Hurricane defeated Solar to move on and Parting took down Cure. But for some reason its seems its always the protoss players that win out, over and over again multiple tournaments in a row. AfreecaPvP should be a thing. Lol based on this argument against Trap. I guess Maru is a scrub as well. The kid has won nothing in GSL until last year and all a sudden he wins 4 straight GSL. But the terran fan army will say "Maru GOAT". That is why majority of fans/players don't take Terrna fanboys opinion seriously. What o_o I never said Trap is a scrub, I'm a fan of Trap, his play recently has been great, that doesn't mean him topping his group is an obvious expected result. Do you even read the comment i replied to? He was saying all the protoss were exptected to move on because they are superior players than the zergs and terrans in their group. I simply disagree with that, Trap, Hurricane and herO were not clear favorites to move on. That was all I said, that a player isn't a favorite to move on from a group doesn't equal me calling them a scrub...... Please elaborate your agument. Also the kid had actually already gotten a double crown before 2018, both an OSL and SSL championship as well as (unlike Trap whom never made RO8 and still isn't a scrub) three GSL seminfinals appearences. Oh so now other championships BESIDES GSL mean something? Or does that only work when we talk about any Terran players? For the past year didn't most korean elitist dumped on all of serral's accomplishment outside of GSL? I believe most people had herO and Trap as the favorites out of the group. No one was too surprised by it. I think more people would have been surprised if Special got out of the group in first. Hurricane really? Worst case it was a coin flip between him and Rag. Fantasy has no business advancing to RO8 and I was cheering for him too. Don't know why terran's just cant accept that as of right now, there are just more toss players that are just better than terran players. Zerg haven't won jack in GSL for years, but we don't see them complaining and crying about balance as much as terrans. When a average Terran player upset a top Zerg/Toss. Terran defense "he played BAD! had an OFF day. But Toss and zerg still Op!" (I.e Stats losing in RO32) When the opposite happens. Terran tear army "demands nerf for other races and buff for terrans, etc etc" Let's all be honest here, Maru entered the s2 scene at a very very young age. Maru winning these GSLs were simply because the other top korean pros are declining and not in their prime anymore. If you can't at least see this fact, I don't know what to say to you I personally rank Innovation above him So just to be clear, you're saying the Protoss players improved and are just better players but Maru, who joined the scene at a young age, is only good because people are declining? It couldn't possibly be that a young player improves over time especially when most of the Koreans at that time were mostly veterans from BW. I wonder what your previous account was and when it got banned. Na it's my only account. Been lurkering for years but finally decide to make an account since the whining and complaining about balance is getting way out of hand. Where did say Protoss players improved? I said they are "better", doesn't mean they improved. Skill wise almost everyone in the korean scene is declining. It's quite of obvious if you compare the same player now and what they were a few years ago. Best example is herO, zest, innovation, etc. Maru is still in his prime whereas the other koreans are slowly exiting. Not rocket science. But if we are to compare prime vs prime. I'm pretty sure majority of the people would say innovation or even TY > Maru prime
Ah yes that famous dominating prime TY, you know that time he was older then Maru is now and won for 2 months into nothing else. Clearly worth 5 Korean league and the best proleague season ever in SC2
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Sad for Juanito, now Patience and Stats advance from the last group, leaving soO alone in a ZvP hell.
In before not even all these protosses can stop Terran from winning Code S and INno takes it all 
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No complaints for today, hero outplayed the ultimate GOAT special and that is all there is to it
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On May 30 2019 04:17 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 01:31 Xain0n wrote:On May 30 2019 00:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:On May 30 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:
we have seen worse situations in the past.
No we have not. As I mentioned already, in the GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And competitive professional BW tournaments in Korea go back to 1999. Yes, it's the worse ro8 distribution(and yet, Gumiho reached the finals…) but there were worse ro32(17, 20 and 19 Terran in three consecutive seasons of GoMTvT), worse ro16 and worse ro4(respectively 10/16 and 4/4 Terran, Code S October 2011 says hello). There is indeed a strong chanche we are in one uncommon balance situation at the moment; it has to be noted tho that Blink Stalker Protossfest in 2014, and GoMTvT in 2011 lasted for months, and while in the BL Infestor era Zerg weren't overwhelming in numbers in the brackets(four at best), there were three consecutive Zerg Champions. The current perceived ""Super opness" of Protoss may just result in a single Super Tournament champion(no variation from 2018) or it might make them win a Code S after two years and half for a total of two consecutive GSL tournaments(Protoss in WCS aren't looking that scary, on the other hand); overall winrates aren't especially alarming so that maybe other races not finding solutions and notable players slumping are making a small imbalance look like enormous and impassable(or maybe they are truly op and the current trend won't stop), I am quite sure if Terran were in Protoss' place everyone would be happier. Thus said, reducing Warp Prism-Immortals strenght while making Carriers viable again seems appropriate to me and could help. On Maru against Trap, Maru's career before 2018 was definitely better than Trap's before 2019;I just want to point out Maru won Code S S3 against TY(a Terran) and that at the moment, Protoss are not winning left and right: there is a lot of them around having good results but in the end they are winning as many tournaments as the other races in 2019. I had Trap as my pick for a deep run this GSL on form and his trend in a thread here, he looked good here. herO/Special/Impact were all players I felt could advance, depending which one showed up on the day. Impact decided to channel his inner Dear and not show up at all. I haven’t seen too much egregious at all and after my relatively long hiatus I consume a ton of SC content these days, including every GSL series this time around, Perhaps the break makes me more sanguine, outside of other design concerns I have if anything Protoss is the best race in a certain abstract RTS sense. If Terran kind of have to be aggressive, and Zerg have to be defensive, Protoss can kind of do both. Protoss have a lot of technical units that good players can get more use of, or actively prefer to use. Protoss don’t really have a (borderline) unkillable super composition in the super late game too, which I think is a good thing. We have a lot of Protoss players with completely different styles and strengths and weaknesses too. As a player and a theorycrafter I’m way towards the Stats end of the scale, but I can appreciate the risk taking and the balls of a Parting or a herO too. Stripped away from balance as per the other races, Protoss is actually in a pretty good spot IMO. Lots of tools that are viable, lots of compositions that are viable and you can apply them in a range of different ways. I’ve enjoyed this GSL a lot, a few matches go different ways and the distribution is very different. WCS just had a great distribution the whole way through the tournament, and while not GSL level it’s still a very high level that shouldn’t be discounted out of hand. I’m not really rooting for Protoss this season outside of wanting Classic to win before military, and I dislike too many mirrors late in a tournament, I’m not actively rooting against them either.
viable compositions but only somes of the strongest will be used and many viable tools but most of them are used in the early game help nothing but creating a moar volatile matchup.from designing point that is a 'nay'
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On May 30 2019 05:33 Akio wrote:Sad for Juanito, now Patience and Stats advance from the last group, leaving soO alone in a ZvP hell. In before not even all these protosses can stop Terran from winning Code S and INno takes it all
wait until u see bogus 4-0 everyone in the final
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On May 30 2019 05:58 sudete wrote:
No complaints for today, hero outplayed the ultimate GOAT special and that is all there is to it
Had my hopes up after game 1 and then was very sad.
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Northern Ireland25132 Posts
On May 30 2019 07:21 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 04:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 30 2019 01:31 Xain0n wrote:On May 30 2019 00:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:On May 30 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:
we have seen worse situations in the past.
No we have not. As I mentioned already, in the GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And competitive professional BW tournaments in Korea go back to 1999. Yes, it's the worse ro8 distribution(and yet, Gumiho reached the finals…) but there were worse ro32(17, 20 and 19 Terran in three consecutive seasons of GoMTvT), worse ro16 and worse ro4(respectively 10/16 and 4/4 Terran, Code S October 2011 says hello). There is indeed a strong chanche we are in one uncommon balance situation at the moment; it has to be noted tho that Blink Stalker Protossfest in 2014, and GoMTvT in 2011 lasted for months, and while in the BL Infestor era Zerg weren't overwhelming in numbers in the brackets(four at best), there were three consecutive Zerg Champions. The current perceived ""Super opness" of Protoss may just result in a single Super Tournament champion(no variation from 2018) or it might make them win a Code S after two years and half for a total of two consecutive GSL tournaments(Protoss in WCS aren't looking that scary, on the other hand); overall winrates aren't especially alarming so that maybe other races not finding solutions and notable players slumping are making a small imbalance look like enormous and impassable(or maybe they are truly op and the current trend won't stop), I am quite sure if Terran were in Protoss' place everyone would be happier. Thus said, reducing Warp Prism-Immortals strenght while making Carriers viable again seems appropriate to me and could help. On Maru against Trap, Maru's career before 2018 was definitely better than Trap's before 2019;I just want to point out Maru won Code S S3 against TY(a Terran) and that at the moment, Protoss are not winning left and right: there is a lot of them around having good results but in the end they are winning as many tournaments as the other races in 2019. I had Trap as my pick for a deep run this GSL on form and his trend in a thread here, he looked good here. herO/Special/Impact were all players I felt could advance, depending which one showed up on the day. Impact decided to channel his inner Dear and not show up at all. I haven’t seen too much egregious at all and after my relatively long hiatus I consume a ton of SC content these days, including every GSL series this time around, Perhaps the break makes me more sanguine, outside of other design concerns I have if anything Protoss is the best race in a certain abstract RTS sense. If Terran kind of have to be aggressive, and Zerg have to be defensive, Protoss can kind of do both. Protoss have a lot of technical units that good players can get more use of, or actively prefer to use. Protoss don’t really have a (borderline) unkillable super composition in the super late game too, which I think is a good thing. We have a lot of Protoss players with completely different styles and strengths and weaknesses too. As a player and a theorycrafter I’m way towards the Stats end of the scale, but I can appreciate the risk taking and the balls of a Parting or a herO too. Stripped away from balance as per the other races, Protoss is actually in a pretty good spot IMO. Lots of tools that are viable, lots of compositions that are viable and you can apply them in a range of different ways. I’ve enjoyed this GSL a lot, a few matches go different ways and the distribution is very different. WCS just had a great distribution the whole way through the tournament, and while not GSL level it’s still a very high level that shouldn’t be discounted out of hand. I’m not really rooting for Protoss this season outside of wanting Classic to win before military, and I dislike too many mirrors late in a tournament, I’m not actively rooting against them either. viable compositions but only somes of the strongest will be used and many viable tools but most of them are used in the early game help nothing but creating a moar volatile matchup.from designing point that is a 'nay'
I don’t think they are, in PvT at least. Chargelot/Immortal comps with Templar, Collosus/Stalker are still a part of the matchup and some players who like/are good with them go Blink/Disruptor too. And then Stargate openers/lategame transition to factor in too.
Not so much the case now I think Terran have generally been the volatile race in terms of early game pushes, where weird combos of early game units are concerned.
From ye olde 1/1/1 push to especially cyclones and ravens continually being tweaked because they’re either OP or UP.
I say weird because, well, weird. I actually like the BC builds people have been working on, but initially it feels odd to rush to that tech for the sake of a few BCs.
It is worth noting that I don’t think the 1/1/1 was even really nerfed via patches, people figured out that 1 gate FE gave you more units when it hit vs the standard safer expands or the time. Which then became the absolute standard PvT opener when it was more widely used.
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On May 30 2019 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Oh so now other championships BESIDES GSL mean something? Or does that only work when we talk about any Terran players? For the past year didn't most korean elitist dumped on all of serral's accomplishment outside of GSL?
Please do your research before being so needlessly aggressive. We now live in the time when we have Afreeca GSL, before that until 2015 we hade GOMTV GSL, we have also had ongamenets OSL and SPOTVs SSL. So you could say that we in SC2 have had four different organizers doing GSL style tournaments in korea, either way all four of these leagues shared the same (or similar) structure and the same players. SSL and OSL have a different name from Afreecas or GOMTVs GSL but they are essentially the exact same tournament that are equally hard and equally competetive as their counterpart. Therefore OSL and SSL results are equal to GSL results while on the other hand Serral winning WCS tournaments is indeed worth a lot lot lot less (in my opinion). (why are we even discussing this in a thread about todays results?) Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
I believe most people had herO and Trap as the favorites out of the group. No one was too surprised by it. I think more people would have been surprised if Special got out of the group in first.
Interesting, do you have any source on this "belief" of yours, TLs article on the topic had Trap and Impact predicted to advance. You see Impact defeated both Zest and Trust to advance to the RO16. Trap defeated Scarlett and herO and herO defeated Keen twice. SpeCial got there by beating sOs twice. Both Impact and SpeCial won vs decent P to get into RO16 Trap and herOs results of Scarlett and Keen pale in comparison to the opposition Impact and SpeCial went through to get there. The group was super close, no one was particularly favored, you could argue Trap because of his result the last couple of month but its not as cut and dry as you and others make it out to be. Logically by recent result in this GSL both SpeCial and Impact could be argued for having a better chance than the protoss since they defeated strong protosses to get into a group of two more protosses. I'll ask again, do you have any basis for said "belief", I just explained my basis for why its close. In general though it could be said that the result was predictable since this year, all you've had to do to predict result with 60-70% success rate you would just need to bet on the protoss. Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Hurricane really? Worst case it was a coin flip between him and Rag. Fantasy has no business advancing to RO8 and I was cheering for him too.
Do you have any basis for any of these personal opinions? Your personal opinions doesn't become subjective facts just because you state them confidently. Fantasy actually defeated both Leenock and Rogue to get into the RO 16, he definitely deserved his place and is no pushover. Fantasy even defeated SpeCial, Solar and Ragnarok just to qualify for GSL. He defeated Ragnarok to get into GSL and then random TL poster boldly claims he has no business being in the same group as the guy he defeated because he is obviously far inferior? The irony is too strong. Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
When a average Terran player upset a top Zerg/Toss.
Terran defense "he played BAD! had an OFF day. But Toss and zerg still Op!" (I.e Stats losing in RO32)
When the opposite happens. Terran tear army "demands nerf for other races and buff for terrans, etc etc"
Protoss fanbois really makes no sense, when terran is doing well in tournaments its all because terrans are OP. Terran dominates GSL and protoss havent won in x seasons, its so badly balanced. Of course it cant be because the terran champions are actually better than the players of other races When all of a sudden all protoss players are destroying the other races, its all because Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
there are just more toss players that are just better than terran players.
Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 00:44 NbaLover wrote:
Let's all be honest here, Maru entered the s2 scene at a very very young age. Maru winning these GSLs were simply because the other top korean pros are declining and not in their prime anymore. If you can't at least see this fact, I don't know what to say to you
Actually since 2012 all starcraft 2 players have actually declined, MVP is the best player there ever was and nowadays its more a question of who is the least bad will win the championships.
Didn't read rofl
I can probably guess it's more terran excuses, toss op blah blah
How close am I?
User was temp banned for this post.
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PvP can be fun but honestly, the balance is always shifting too much in any direction makes this game not as fun to watch for viewers other than diehard sc2 fans. I will watch the games but I wont enjoy it probably.
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On May 30 2019 04:17 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2019 01:31 Xain0n wrote:On May 30 2019 00:43 xelnaga_empire wrote:On May 30 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:
we have seen worse situations in the past.
No we have not. As I mentioned already, in the GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And competitive professional BW tournaments in Korea go back to 1999. Yes, it's the worse ro8 distribution(and yet, Gumiho reached the finals…) but there were worse ro32(17, 20 and 19 Terran in three consecutive seasons of GoMTvT), worse ro16 and worse ro4(respectively 10/16 and 4/4 Terran, Code S October 2011 says hello). There is indeed a strong chanche we are in one uncommon balance situation at the moment; it has to be noted tho that Blink Stalker Protossfest in 2014, and GoMTvT in 2011 lasted for months, and while in the BL Infestor era Zerg weren't overwhelming in numbers in the brackets(four at best), there were three consecutive Zerg Champions. The current perceived ""Super opness" of Protoss may just result in a single Super Tournament champion(no variation from 2018) or it might make them win a Code S after two years and half for a total of two consecutive GSL tournaments(Protoss in WCS aren't looking that scary, on the other hand); overall winrates aren't especially alarming so that maybe other races not finding solutions and notable players slumping are making a small imbalance look like enormous and impassable(or maybe they are truly op and the current trend won't stop), I am quite sure if Terran were in Protoss' place everyone would be happier. Thus said, reducing Warp Prism-Immortals strenght while making Carriers viable again seems appropriate to me and could help. On Maru against Trap, Maru's career before 2018 was definitely better than Trap's before 2019;I just want to point out Maru won Code S S3 against TY(a Terran) and that at the moment, Protoss are not winning left and right: there is a lot of them around having good results but in the end they are winning as many tournaments as the other races in 2019. I had Trap as my pick for a deep run this GSL on form and his trend in a thread here, he looked good here. herO/Special/Impact were all players I felt could advance, depending which one showed up on the day. Impact decided to channel his inner Dear and not show up at all. I haven’t seen too much egregious at all and after my relatively long hiatus I consume a ton of SC content these days, including every GSL series this time around, Perhaps the break makes me more sanguine, outside of other design concerns I have if anything Protoss is the best race in a certain abstract RTS sense. If Terran kind of have to be aggressive, and Zerg have to be defensive, Protoss can kind of do both. Protoss have a lot of technical units that good players can get more use of, or actively prefer to use. Protoss don’t really have a (borderline) unkillable super composition in the super late game too, which I think is a good thing. We have a lot of Protoss players with completely different styles and strengths and weaknesses too. As a player and a theorycrafter I’m way towards the Stats end of the scale, but I can appreciate the risk taking and the balls of a Parting or a herO too. Stripped away from balance as per the other races, Protoss is actually in a pretty good spot IMO. Lots of tools that are viable, lots of compositions that are viable and you can apply them in a range of different ways. I’ve enjoyed this GSL a lot, a few matches go different ways and the distribution is very different. WCS just had a great distribution the whole way through the tournament, and while not GSL level it’s still a very high level that shouldn’t be discounted out of hand. I’m not really rooting for Protoss this season outside of wanting Classic to win before military, and I dislike too many mirrors late in a tournament, I’m not actively rooting against them either.
Yeah that’s about how I feel too, I’ve enjoyed a lot of the games this season so far, I do hope that Stats will advance from his group and at least make ro4
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damn, protoss players have really gotten better and stepped it up lately.
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Maru was the best player in proleague, he also won his GSLs when all the other terrans managed to win 3 bananas, a handshake and 5 dollars of prize pool, unlike all the toss players winning everything left and right nowadays.
I think there are better Proleague players than Maru, like INnoVation, sOs or even Flash. Although I dont remember exactly how good Flash was in Proleague. Mari was certainly a good player though, by no means is he out of the discussion one of the best proleaguers.
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not to balance whine, but watching how toss plays, it seems most of there units are in good state, like every single one except voidray, seems to be viable. From there we get huge amount of viable strategies, rushes/defensive macro plays and so on. While units them self dont seem to be imbalanced, whole sum of it seems to tip the scales.
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EPT
